Is my model ruined?

ajlafleche wrote:

Flat Base instructions, when they were more readily available, said something to the effect, apply...wait x amount of time before a second application. Nothing about use as a flattening agent only when mixed with other colors.

No excuses for Tamiya. They are quilty as charged.

As to cost savings, give me Testor's Dullcoat. A bottle lasts me so long, I can't even remember what I paid for it. Add few drops of hardware store thinner to it in the color cup and a dead flat finish over acrylics, enamel, oil.

As I said in many other posts, the cost we spent on tools, including paints, pale in comparison to cost of all the model kits we purchased. It is the flexibility that Tamiya Flat Base allows. The modeler can create any clear coating from gloss to flat-flat with the readily available "Future".

I used to use the Testors' Dullcoat spray can which did not last very long for each can. I have since switched to customerized Future.

I'm thinking, because you used the tamiya thinner to reduce your flat base, it has possibly melted the original paint, causing a layer of the FB to bite. hopefully this residual layer will be thin enough to be concealed with a layer of gloss. (fingers crossed).

luckily my first attempt at using FB was in the days before I had an airbrush, so I brushed it on straight over the paint... that was quite easy to remove once I realised what it was.

Thanks Keilau, yeah the kit is a bit rough, but I got it so I could bring it to the office and not be afraid that it will break off everytime someone comes by. Cool decals for sure.

Postal, sorry, apologies for hijacking your thread here.

keilau wrote:

ajlafleche wrote: In any other business, there would have been a class action suit against Tamiya for selling this without proper instructions. This has been going one for over 20 years and newcomers continue to get duped into buying this with no indication from the manufacturer that it can't be used alone. For a long time, in fact, the only directions in its use was the exact wording for all the other Tamiya paints. The dealers, too, should have some repsonsibility in warning their customers about how to use this. This coming winter, I will try to use my lawn mow to clear the snow on my sidewalk. If it does not do a good job and I slip on it. I may be able to collect a good sum for damage. The Tamiya X-21 is one of the best idea in modeling. It says "FLAT BASE" on the bottle and NOT "clear coat", or "gloss clear coat" or anything else implying it. I understand that no everyone uses English daily, but it is not that difficult to understand the difference if the user cares to look it up. It may be just me. Why would anyone assume "FLAT BASE" means "clear coat"? Tamiya could have done something better. It is not class law suit material. Instead of spending $8 for a TS-13 sprary can, a $2.50 bottle of X-21 lasts me a long time and give me the vesalitity of TS-13, TS-79, TS-80 or anything inbetween at a fraction of the cost.

BZZZZT! Wrong answer, but thanks for playing.

You lawn mower doesn't come with instructions on using it exactly as you would your snow blower, does it? Flat Base instructions, when they were more readily available, said something to the effect, apply...wait x amount of time before a second application. Nothing about use as a flattening agent only when mixed with other colors.

As to cost savings, give me Testor's Dullcoat. A bottle lasts me so long, I can't even remember what I paid for it. Add few drops of hardware store thinner to it in the color cup and a dead flat finish over acrylics, enamel, oil.

Given the number and regularity of posts from people who make this same mistake, there's obviously an issue with Tamiya's labeling. Since just about every other paint manufacturer makes a clear flat and at least Polly-s (or was it PollyScale?) had the same milky in the bottle look as Flat base, it seems perfectly natural to expect that by following the directions on the bottle, you will get a nice flat finish.

One can only guess at the number of confused modelers and ruined finishes back in the day before we had the resource of the internet to ask the qustion, "What happened to my finish after I used flat base?"

waikong wrote:

Can't agree more about the flat base. I've done it when i got back into modelling years ago and every 4-5 months, someone posts here doing the same thing.

Very nice site. I am working on the Testors-5640 diecast F-18A kit. This is the first time that I see a finished product. You did wonderful job to the kit.

I know that it is NOT a very accurate kit. This my first "diecast kit". I expect a good fit, but it is far from it. Still, fun to work with. It takes a lot of grinding and gap filling. 

ajlafleche wrote:

Bgrigg wrote: it clearly says "Flat Base" and their other paints clearly don't, but it IS a recurring problem. Regardless of the name, when there were directions available, they were exactly the same for regualr paint and "Flat Base." It talked about time between coats and nothing about mixing it with other colors only. From one web dealer: "X-21 Flat Base Acrylic Hobby Paint 23ml Jar Model: 81021 Size: 23ml Age Range: 10-89 Skill Level: 1 (out of 10) These paints can be used on all common model plastics, resins, Styrofoam, wood, glass and metal materials. X-2 White Acrylic Hobby Paint 23ml Jar Model: 81002 Size: 23ml Age Range: 10-99 Skill Level: 1 (out of 10) These paints can be used on all common model plastics, resins, Styrofoam, wood, glass and metal materials." From Tamiya's site: "Tamiya Acrylic Paints are made from water-soluble acrylic resins and are excellent for either brush or spray painting. These paints can be used on styrol resins, styrofoam, wood, plus all of the common model plastics. The paint covers well, flows smoothly with no blushing or fading, and can be blended easily. Each bottle of the Tamiya Acrylic Paint Series contains 23ml and each bottle from the Tamiya Acrylic Paint "Mini" Series contains 10 ml of paint. Available with 23 glossy, 51 flat and 7 translucent colors, plus an exclusive thinner and a flat base."

Al, I'm not arguing that the instructions shouldn't be clearer, I just think a class action suit is overwrought.

Quoting an unknown web dealer only points out the limitations of the web master, and the description of Tamiya paints you quote above clearly (no pun intended) shows that the Thinner and Flat Base are NOT considered paints.

I fell for this the first time out, and once I realized that the description said Flat BASE and not just Clear as their gloss does, that the fault lay with me for not realizing what the product is designed to do. And once you are clear (this time the pun is intended!) about its use, it works very well.

What I've never understood is why the Flat Base is a X (Gloss) and not XF (Flat). I suppose its due to it being added to the gloss paints, but why is a base material, and thinner for that matter, considered "gloss" is beyond my comprehension.

While I think Tamiya should label the product differently, I just don't think enriching lawyers is an appropriate response. Class action suits rarely, if ever, benefit those who are harmed by a product, even when that product actually harms someone.

ajlafleche wrote:

In any other business, there would have been a class action suit against Tamiya for selling this without proper instructions. This has been going one for over 20 years and newcomers continue to get duped into buying this with no indication from the manufacturer that it can't be used alone. For a long time, in fact, the only directions in its use was the exact wording for all the other Tamiya paints. The dealers, too, should have some repsonsibility in warning their customers about how to use this.

This coming winter, I will try to use my lawn mow to clear the snow on my sidewalk. If it does not do a good job and I slip on it. I may be able to collect a good sum for damage.

The Tamiya X-21 is one of the best idea in modeling. It says "FLAT BASE" on the bottle and NOT "clear coat", or "gloss clear coat" or anything else implying it. I understand that no everyone uses English daily, but it is not that difficult to understand the difference if the user cares to look it up. It may be just me. Why would anyone assume "FLAT BASE" means "clear coat"? Tamiya could have done something better. It is not class law suit material.

Instead of spending $8 for a TS-13 sprary can, a $2.50 bottle of X-21 lasts me a long time and give me the vesalitity of TS-13, TS-79, TS-80 or anything inbetween at a fraction of the cost.

Bgrigg wrote:

it clearly says "Flat Base" and their other paints clearly don't, but it IS a recurring problem.

Regardless of the name, when there were directions available, they were exactly the same for regualr paint and "Flat Base." It talked about time between coats and nothing about mixing it with other colors only.

From one web dealer:

"X-21 Flat Base Acrylic Hobby Paint 23ml Jar

Model: 81021
Size: 23ml
Age Range: 10-89
Skill Level: 1 (out of 10)

These paints can be used on all common model plastics, resins, Styrofoam, wood, glass and metal materials.

X-2 White Acrylic Hobby Paint 23ml Jar

Model: 81002
Size: 23ml
Age Range: 10-99
Skill Level: 1 (out of 10)

These paints can be used on all common model plastics, resins, Styrofoam, wood, glass and metal materials."

From Tamiya's site:

"Tamiya Acrylic Paints are made from water-soluble acrylic resins and are excellent for either brush or spray painting. These paints can be used on styrol resins, styrofoam, wood, plus all of the common model plastics. The paint covers well, flows smoothly with no blushing or fading, and can be blended easily. Each bottle of the Tamiya Acrylic Paint Series contains 23ml and each bottle from the Tamiya Acrylic Paint "Mini" Series contains 10 ml of paint. Available with 23 glossy, 51 flat and 7 translucent colors, plus an exclusive thinner and a flat base."

My very first post was this very same problem. Al may overstate it a tad, it clearly says "Flat Base" and their other paints clearly don't, but it IS a recurring problem. Whomever sold it to you should have warned you.

It may wash off, and it may take a bit of SOFT scrubbing with a very soft old toothbrush.

Tamiya FB has no bonding agent in it, It should wash off with water.

Its a bit of a bummer for the model that has suffered from this, but it is an easy mistake to make. Do a forum search on Tamiya Flat Base & look at how many folk have had the same problem.

I got back into the game about 1 1/2 years ago & spent good money on an airbrush, compressor, Tamiya acrylics....... On the airbrushes first outing (& the consecutive 3 evenings) I was about tearing my hair out with the mess that was coming out of my airbrush. I was nearly at the point of heaving the whole bloody lot in frustration when I realised I had the thinner / paint ratio the wrong way round - live & learn as they say

Is it Tamiya X-21 flat base you have used?

If so, Flat Base is an addative use to flatten down the finish of whatever paint / topcoat you are using & is only really used in small ratios. To quote Swanny When using with Future;

1 part flat base to 3 parts Future = very flat
1 part flat base to 10 parts Future = flat
1 part flat base to 15 parts Future = satin
If you get too much of anybody's flat base on the surface of your model you run the risk of making it all go white. No   thinning is required just make sure it is well mixed.

With regards to correcting this, I "think" you will have to remove it - I am sure that someone else on the forum with more knowledge than me can clarify on that?