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Acrylic Retarder

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  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Monday, October 26, 2009 9:14 AM
 Don Wheeler wrote:
 Triarius wrote:

"Ah!" cried Holmes, "We have them, Watson!"

At those amounts, the glycols are not retarders, they are cosolvents. In this case, cosolvents are modifying the behavior of the primary solvent, isopropyl alcohol, probably for viscosity and evaporation rate.

A retarder is generally added in amounts well below 1%. 

This is starting to sound like eye of newt and a pinch of henbane.  I think I'll stick with enamels.Smile [:)]

Don 

He knows. Now we'll have to kill him…

Laugh [(-D]

Actually, Don, you have no choice. You must use acrylics. Otherwise—Gulag! Seriously, enamels will probably get phased out in the next 5 to 10 years, perhaps sooner, depending on how rapidly the technology develops. There is a lot of push behind that technology! Enamels are a very old technology, in which fundamental change is rare, so they seem less complicated.

Oh, by the way, it's actually wing of bat, hair of frog, and a pinch of henbane……Evil [}:)]

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Sunday, October 25, 2009 10:54 PM
 Triarius wrote:

"Ah!" cried Holmes, "We have them, Watson!"

At those amounts, the glycols are not retarders, they are cosolvents. In this case, cosolvents are modifying the behavior of the primary solvent, isopropyl alcohol, probably for viscosity and evaporation rate.

A retarder is generally added in amounts well below 1%. 

This is starting to sound like eye of newt and a pinch of henbane.  I think I'll stick with enamels.Smile [:)]

Don 

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Sunday, October 25, 2009 9:43 PM
 Don Wheeler wrote:
[Wow!  I checked out a few of their other colors and Propylene glycol runs anywhere from 13 to 17%.  Do you still need to add more retarder?

Don 

Hi Don,

I suspect that the requirement for retarder can vary depending on technique and ambient conditions.

For example, I typically airbrush Tamiya acrylics at what most would consider very high dilution (50 to 80%+ thinner), at low pressure and rarely require (additional) retarder.   

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, October 25, 2009 8:28 PM

"Ah!" cried Holmes, "We have them, Watson!"

At those amounts, the glycols are not retarders, they are cosolvents. In this case, cosolvents are modifying the behavior of the primary solvent, isopropyl alcohol, probably for viscosity and evaporation rate.

A retarder is generally added in amounts well below 1%. 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Sunday, October 25, 2009 8:21 PM
 Phil_H wrote:

Equivalent of the Holy Grail?

MSDS for Tamiya X-21 Flat Base....  

MSDS for X-22 Clear Gloss Acrylic    

XF-65 Field Grey 

Wow!  I checked out a few of their other colors and Propylene glycol runs anywhere from 13 to 17%.  Do you still need to add more retarder?

Don 

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Sunday, October 25, 2009 8:10 PM
I never even use any retarder when I paint. Whistling [:-^]

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Sunday, October 25, 2009 7:54 PM

Equivalent of the Holy Grail?

MSDS for Tamiya X-21 Flat Base....  http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://recursos.hisinsa.com/paginas/pdf/tamiya/fichasseguridad/tamiya/81521.pdf&ei=UfLkSuWKB8WBkQXCxY29AQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBEQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Nagashima%2BSpecial%2BPaint%2BCo.%2522%252B%2522tamiya%2522%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au:IE-ContextMenu

MSDS for X-22 Clear Gloss Acrylic    http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://recursos.hisinsa.com/paginas/pdf/tamiya/fichasseguridad/tamiya/81522.pdf&ei=RvHkSpLhJNDykAWj9ryzAQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CA8Q7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Ikegami%2BPaint%2BManufacturing%2BSales%2522%252B%2522tamiya%2522%252B%2522x-22%2522%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au:IE-ContextMenu

XF-65 Field Grey http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=es&u=http://recursos.hisinsa.com/paginas/pdf/tamiya/fichasseguridad/tamiya/81765.pdf&ei=2_TkSqGgPI_VkAXl6qm4AQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCAQ7gEwBg&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522Nagashima%2BSpecial%2BPaint%2522%252B%2522tamiya%2522%26hl%3Den%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-au:IE-ContextMenu

Couldn't find one for X-22A Acrylic thinner though - it's listed, but it's wrong. They have the enamel thinner listed as acrylic.

If anyone wants to go rooting around a bit further, click here: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-au%3AIE-ContextMenu&q=%22Ikegami+Paint+Manufacturing+Sales%22%2B%22tamiya%22&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, October 25, 2009 6:37 PM
Holy cow, you can READ that fine print! Cool [8D] <--- not "cool" but BLIND!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Sunday, October 25, 2009 5:56 PM
 Triarius wrote:

Phil, how did you find out that Tamiya and Gunze contain glycol? I've been trying to dig up that information for years! 

Hi Ross,

In tiny print on the Tamiya label: "Contains Isopropanol and Glycol Ethers"

In even smaller print on the Gunze (aqueous) label: "Ingredient: Acrylic Regin - 23%, Pigment - 14%, Alcohole - 27%, Glycole - 10%, Water - 26%" (Spelling is as per label Whistling [:-^])

On one of my older (1980's vintage) Tamiya jars, it doesn't mention Glycol, but states:

Component Element:

Water soluble acrylic resin 40.3%
Pigment         14.1%
Alcohol          19.9%
Water            25.7%

This one is from about the time when you could still brush paint Tamiya straight out of the bottle. Sigh [sigh]

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Sunday, October 25, 2009 12:06 PM

This is the first I've ever heard of Tamiya or Gunze paints containing retarder, hard to believe with the ultra fast surface drying.

I know that Tamiya's thinner includes a retarder, but I'm pretty sure the paint doesn't.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Sunday, October 25, 2009 11:38 AM

It's not merely a matter of "glycol," it's a matter of which glycol. It appears easier to gain access to top secret CIA documents than to find out what's actually in Tamiya paint—and Gunze is worse—at least unless you read Japanese.

Golden retarder contains propylene glycol, but obviously contains other materials, as well, from the MSDS (which provide information only on "hazardous" components and are not required to list "proprietary" ingredients). I know that some acrylic polymers are incompatible with various forms of glycol, but not with others. This would seem to indicate that propylene glycol is universally compatible. However, I also know that retarders are only marginally compatible with some of the acrylic polymers used in hobby paints. (Yes, I actually tested this.)

Glycols generally reduce evaporation rates in either alcohol or aqueous systems. However, some also interfere with acrylic polymerization, making them ideal for acrylic systems. There are also other chemicals which interfere with that polymerization, and I suspect they are present in some acrylic retarders, since the result of adding too much retarder (or adding it directly to the paint) is rapid flocculation.

It therefore seems a reasonable assumption that proprietary thinners that contain a retarder contain propylene glycol (possibly with other chemicals), or they contain a different glycol that is compatible with the acrylic polymers in that particular brand.

Please remember: too much retarder=ruined paint. 

Phil, how did you find out that Tamiya and Gunze contain glycol? I've been trying to dig up that information for years! 

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Saturday, October 24, 2009 7:21 PM

Hi Don,

Actually, brands such as Tamiya and Gunze acrylics already contain an amount of glycol, which I believe is the retarding agent.

I'm guessing that the amount already added to the paint is sufficient to meet their basic "performance" specs under controlled (temp, humidity) conditions.

In the real world, sometimes we have to tweak it a little...Big Smile [:D]

 

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Saturday, October 24, 2009 5:30 PM

Thanks Ross.  I knew you would know.

Don 

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Peoples Socialist Democratic Republic of Illinois
Posted by Triarius on Saturday, October 24, 2009 3:23 PM
The chemicals in retarders are not completely compatible with some of the components of the paint, particularly the binders, and sometimes the pigments. Retarders work by either inhibiting solvent loss, delaying the onset of crosslinking (curing) or both. Most work predominantly by delaying the onset of curing. However as a consequence of this, when a retarded paint starts to cure it cures very rapidly, up to twice as fast as the unretarded paint. That is why you should never add retarder directly to paint (always mix it with solvent, first) and why you should not try to store paint that has a retarder added for more than a day or two.

Ross Martinek A little strangeness, now and then, is a good thing… Wink

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Acrylic Retarder
Posted by Don Wheeler on Saturday, October 24, 2009 2:53 PM

I'm not yet an acrylic user, but there is something I'm curious about.  Maybe Triarius can explain it.  I am always reading that people have to add a retarder to acrylics.  Why don't the manufacturers add retarder to begin with?  Wouldn't that give them a sales advantage? 

"New Brand XYZ Paint, now with retarder added"

It can't be that expensive.

Don 

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

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