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Tamiya Thinner X-20A 250ml in stock

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  • Member since
    July 2011
Tamiya Thinner X-20A 250ml in stock
Posted by richardzoo84 on Friday, September 16, 2011 3:06 PM

SprueBrothers.com just sent me an email saying the large size thinner is in stock. I just ordered two for myself. 

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Friday, September 16, 2011 6:29 PM

already on order. thanks for the heads up!

 

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
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  • From: Las Vegas
Posted by dood_dood on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 8:45 PM

I just received 8 from Great Models as well.

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Wednesday, September 21, 2011 9:06 PM

i think i need to order another one.

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by GreenThumb on Thursday, September 22, 2011 6:27 PM

You guys need to try alternatives so you don't have to rely on the overpriced stuff.

I would only use the manufacturers thinner if that was all there was to choose from.

Mike

 

 

  • Member since
    January 2003
  • From: Washington, DC
Posted by TomZ2 on Friday, September 23, 2011 1:11 AM

As a species, humans do everything they can to differentiate themselves from all other life on the planet. We boast about our large brains, praising our civilization and advancements in science and technology. And let’s not forget our opposable thumbs. And you don't have some X-20A? [dinkywongo]

Floccinaucinihilipilification: The act or habit of describing or regarding something as unimportant.

Occasional factual, grammatical, or spelling variations are inherent to this thesis and should not be considered as defects, as they enhance the individuality and character of this document.

  • Member since
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  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Monday, September 26, 2011 2:56 PM

GreenThumb

You guys need to try alternatives so you don't have to rely on the overpriced stuff.

I would only use the manufacturers thinner if that was all there was to choose from.

 

i did and i didn't like it. 

i use X-20 to thin and use regular alcohol to clean.

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by GreenThumb on Monday, September 26, 2011 3:15 PM

randypandy831

 GreenThumb:

You guys need to try alternatives so you don't have to rely on the overpriced stuff.

I would only use the manufacturers thinner if that was all there was to choose from.

 

 

i did and i didn't like it. 

i use X-20 to thin and use regular alcohol to clean.

What did you try? Did you try ethyl alcohol?

Mike

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Monday, September 26, 2011 4:02 PM

We had a big thread last year on X-20A on Flory Models (Prodmodeller). It was prompted by the list's moderator who passed on an article by Adam Wilder - MIG guru and one of the founders of the "Spanish School" of heavy weather. Wilder is very good. Wilder's background is also from the art end of the hobby - hence the "modulation" technique he has been backing (and made a very good DVD on also - highly recommended if you like to mutiliate tanks with genuine flair.) Anyway, Wilder argued that the breakdown between acrylic and lacquer paints was nowhere near as clear as it appeared. He also argued that the solvent as opposed to water based acrylics - meaning Tamiya and Gunze - needed lacquer thinner to work their best. As X-20A was almost worshipped at Flory this brought quite a reaction. However, the people that actually followed Wilder's suggestion and tried it almost all agreed that he was right. I certainly did and wouldn't think of using 20A with Tamiya when their lacquer works better - especially at low psi. I exchanged emails with the head of Hobby Wave, a very good site for minitatures and sci-fi. They push Gunze Mr. Color paints very heavily and are an excellent source of them. The gent told me Wilder was spot on and that he strongly urged their users to use Gunze's lacquer thinner when using Mr. Color. (Not to be confused with any surviving Mr. Hobby) Do note that Tamiya is the biggest producer of modeling lacquer paints going - all of their spray cans are lacquer. They do know the territory.

This is one place where you must use propriatary products. I use Tamiya and Gunze lacquer thinner interchangeably but wouldn't think of using hardware store lacquer thinner on plastic - you might not like you saw. You're only using this stuff to thin the paint so a bottle will last a very long time. The propriatary thinners are also much milder - no joke when messing around with lacquer. (Must say that if you've got a bad clog in the airbrush, there's nothing to touch industrial strength hardware store lacquer to clean it out. I have spare gaskets for my main airbrush in case one fails. That will happen some day anyhow.)

No question that X-20A will work. Tamiya/Gunze lacquer thinner will work better IMHO. You just have to give it a try.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
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  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Monday, September 26, 2011 4:09 PM

GreenThumb

 

 randypandy831:

 

 

 GreenThumb:

You guys need to try alternatives so you don't have to rely on the overpriced stuff.

I would only use the manufacturers thinner if that was all there was to choose from.

 

 

 

i did and i didn't like it. 

i use X-20 to thin and use regular alcohol to clean.

 

 

What did you try? Did you try ethyl alcohol?

 

everyone keeps saying to use isopropyl with some type of retarder. never tried  ethyl. iso pissed me off so, i never gave alcohol a look again.

i'll give it a try once im out of X-20. thanks for the heads up.

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: United Knigdom
Posted by Alex Shaw on Monday, September 26, 2011 4:14 PM

randypandy831

 

everyone keeps saying to use isopropyl with some type of retarder. never tried  ethyl. iso pissed me off so, i never gave alcohol a look again.

i'll give it a try once im out of X-20. thanks for the heads up.

I just use 99% pure isopropanol and it works fine, and is dirt cheap.

  • Member since
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  • From: Piscataway, NJ!
Posted by wing_nut on Monday, September 26, 2011 4:29 PM

There are thinner alternatives.. WE NEED PAINT!

Marc  

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Monday, September 26, 2011 8:52 PM

so many types of alcohol. so hard to keep up.

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: DFW, Texas
Posted by NervousEnergy on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 10:49 AM

EBergerud

No question that X-20A will work. Tamiya/Gunze lacquer thinner will work better IMHO. You just have to give it a try.

Eric

While I don't doubt this at all, my own take on it is that it completely undercuts the whole point of acrylics in the first place.  The absolute best spraying stuff I've played with yet is Gunze Mr Color paint thinned with Mr Leveling Thinner.  IIRC, this is lacquer paint thinned with self-leveling lacquer thinner.  The results are incredible... smooth finish, no tip dry, no spattering or running, and the Grex can paint a line as thin as a sharp pencil.  Camo fade ins are a snap, even with my limited skills, and it looks like a fade and not a more dispersed collection of particles like most acrylics wind up looking like when I try to feather them.

You can also hear everyone from my wife to the Earth herself scream in protest when I crack open the bottle.

That's the point of acrylics... if you're going to spray lacquer thinner, then why in the world do you want to mess with acrylic paint?  Use lacquer paints such as the excellent Mr Color line and get the best of both worlds.  Even if you're just using the thinner, you're still going to have to strap on the heavy duty organic filter mask, ventilate the office, seal off the rest of the house, send the kids & pets to grandma, and put the local fire department on standby.  

With Tamiya (or any other) acrylics and water or alcohol based thinners you load up the brush and spray.  That's why you use them.  You give up some paint performance to get ease of setup, use, and cleaning.

I started off with Vallejo Model Air for the RLM color sets, because they seemed the easiest to deal with for a beginner just coming back to the hobby.  They work OK, but they've had lots of issues for me, and I've experimented with thinning them (yes, even though they're 'air' paints, most still need more thinning) with everything under the sun... water, Vallejo thinner, future, Golden airbrush medium... sometimes they work well, and sometimes they don't.  I've mostly abandoned using them for Tamiya acrylics and X-20A, because they work perfectly *every* *time*.  And when I need complex camo or really fine work, I trigger the lockdown sirens in the house and load up Mr Color.

  • Member since
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  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:01 PM

Gunze illustrates the point that Wilder (and the boss of Hobbywave I talked to) both made. In the real world "acrylic" is a tricky term. Look at the places that sell Gunze: it is described as a "solvent based acrylic" by Redfrog and HobbyWave; an "acrylic lacquer" by MegaHobby and just Gunze by Sprue. Some pencil pusher doesn't seem to like Tamiya's labels. I don't have any shortage of Tamiya at my place and can look them over. There are warnings about the presence of ethers, mineral spirits in addition to ISA. It is specifically declared toxic and flammable. Now check Vallejo: there the label says non-toxic, non-flammable. Both acrylic paints, right?

I didn't make this up. Adam Wilder is one of the top gurus in the armor world - it was he that first argued that Tamiya should be treated like Gunze and would take very nicely to lacquer thinner. Phil Foley's head moderator decided that Wilder was right about using lacquer thinner. All I can say is that some very good modelers hold this opinion and my experience strongly validates it. I use 20A only for pigments now. My wife can smell Tamiya paint from across the house - I rather like the smell, but it's sure there. The smell of 20A  to my nose is every bit as strong as Tamiya's lacquer thinner. (And Gunze's - I'm sure they're very similar.) That's actually good news. Tamiya and Gunze have gone to great lengths to tone down the strength of their lacquer thinners. I use hardware store "green" lacquer for brush cleaning and can testify it's a lot tougher to take - wouldn't use it without an open door. But if you like Tamiya with 20A you'll like it better with lacquer: it becomes very like Gunze.

Different strokes I guess. I had a lot of nozzle clog trouble with Tamiya. (I don't with lacquer thinner and retarder). When I strated using Vallejo and Golden (and I do like this German Revell Aqua Color a lot - another water based variety) I have no problems. I use a little bit of "flow aid" (which is mostly water), retarder (almost mostly water) and Golden airbrush medium. Wouldn't need to pull out this much artillery, but I do a lot of "low and slow" painting so the the stuff has to be pretty thin. I've also found that keeping a paint brush and some water next next to the airbrush does wonders when you see a little paint build up.    

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
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  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, September 27, 2011 5:07 PM

One more thing. We must be using different thinners from Gunze. Mine is just called "Mr. Color Thinner." I do see that HobbyWave sells the levelling variety. These may be different beasts. I normally use Tamiya because it's right behind me, but I do not remember any powerful odor from Gunze's thinner. Tamiya's doesn't. Although, no doubt, if you want to a cleaner work environment one could always stick to water based stuff.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: DFW, Texas
Posted by NervousEnergy on Wednesday, September 28, 2011 10:56 AM

EBergerud

 My wife can smell Tamiya paint from across the house - I rather like the smell, but it's sure there. The smell of 20A  to my nose is every bit as strong as Tamiya's lacquer thinner. (And Gunze's - I'm sure they're very similar.) That's actually good news. Tamiya and Gunze have gone to great lengths to tone down the strength of their lacquer thinners. I use hardware store "green" lacquer for brush cleaning and can testify it's a lot tougher to take - wouldn't use it without an open door. But if you like Tamiya with 20A you'll like it better with lacquer: it becomes very like Gunze.

Different strokes I guess. I had a lot of nozzle clog trouble with Tamiya. (I don't with lacquer thinner and retarder). When I strated using Vallejo and Golden (and I do like this German Revell Aqua Color a lot - another water based variety) I have no problems. I use a little bit of "flow aid" (which is mostly water), retarder (almost mostly water) and Golden airbrush medium. Wouldn't need to pull out this much artillery, but I do a lot of "low and slow" painting so the the stuff has to be pretty thin. I've also found that keeping a paint brush and some water next next to the airbrush does wonders when you see a little paint build up.    

Eric

Ahh... the smell issue is the difference here.  If my wife had a problem with the alcohol smell of X20A then my whole line of debate would be gone.  :-)  She's a pediatrician and I'm pretty sure she became desensitized to alcohol smells a decade or more ago.  Lacquer thinner, though... that's harsher and seems to pervade the house more thoroughly and persist longer if I don't take substantial steps to ventilate things.  I'd also assumed that the vapors from Lacquer are far more hazardous physically than alcohol.  Both very flammable, sure, but alcohol doesn't have the horror warning list of things like Toluene.  The problem with Mr Leveling Thinner (or any Gunze Mr product) is that the labels are all in Japanese, so I can't tell what's in the product and assume the standard nasty lacquer thinner ingredient list.

I'm actually thinking of stocking up a lot more on the Gunze Mr Color paints and just getting used to a stricter regime when painting.  The weather is finally cooling so opening the window and running the heavy vent fans isn't as much of a drag.  And spraying all Gunze paints is simply sublime in paint performance.  Plus the color selection is light years better than Tamiya.

I guess that's still the heart of my contention... if you're going to be using Mr Thinner, then why use Tamiya?  It's hands down the best acrylic I've used, even if it's alcohol based.  And I'll admit to not yet trying it with Mr Thinner.  But I don't see how it could be better than Mr Color lacquer paints.  I'd also strongly suggest the Leveling thinner.  You're basically hand mixing it now, as the Leveling thinner is the same thing as the standard thinner with the retarder built in.

  • Member since
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  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Thursday, September 29, 2011 3:24 AM

This subject was covered on two threads on this board in the last year or so. Check especially

/forums/p/131219/1333866.aspx#1333866

or

/themes/fsm/forums/thread.aspx?ThreadID=136871

Both contain opinions of modelers well above my pay level.

I think the best "expert testimony" comes from Adam Wilder. Here's a highlight of his article about "Color Modulation" written for Armorama and a link to the whole thing:

"I have been airbrushing different tones in my base-coats to add depth and contrast helping to differentiate various details from each other on the recent models I have finished. I have further differentiated the assorted tones more and more on my recent projects in an attempt to discover just how much variation and contrast I can obtain without it being too obvious on the completed model. I am now referring to this technique as The Color Modulation Style. With this method I am using different amounts of lights and darks in the colours starting with the base-coat, then continuing with the chipping and finishing with the earth-tones. I am calling this a style and not a technique because I am simply shifting existing finishing methods.

It is also important to know that I use lacquer thinner to thin the Tamiya paints I am using for this style. 96% Isopropyl alcohol has always been the means for modelers to thin Tamiya paints because of the false assumption that they are acrylics. Tamiya paints are not acrylics. They are only advertised as so to probably make them look less toxic. Tamiya offers both an alcohol type thinner and a lacquer thinner. The quickest way to distinguish the two thinners is that the alcohol type thinner contains a blue cap while the lacquer type has a yellow cap. You want the Tamiya thinner with the yellow cap. Tamiya paints spray much better and go on much smoother when using the lacquer thinner. You will also notice less of that dreaded sandy build-up on the surface of the model often obtained with Tamiya XF paints. This is very important because I apply successive layers of paints when working toward the highlights. Therefore it is very important that all of these layers spray on smooth to help ensure a nice sound basecoat.

Color Modulation uses different tones throughout the models painting and weathering but the most important step is in applying the basecoat. For this article I am going to quickly explain how to apply the base-coat into a simple Panther turret using other models I have painted to further aid with visual reference. Let’s get started.

{Adam Wilder}"

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=2006

Lastly, this is from a page on the Tamiya Paint site:

10 & 20ml Acrylic Paints
Tamiya Acrylic bottled paints can be applied with a brush or airbrushed. Tamiya Acrylics may be mixed to achieve different color combinations. They are available in both gloss and flat finishes. X color codes are gloss finish and XF color codes are flat finishes. By using Tamiya "flat base" (X-21) additive, a modeler can convert a color that is only available in gloss into a flat. Tamiya acrylic paints are perfect for airbrushing since minimal thinning is required. Tamiya acrylic paints can be thinned using our acrylic thinner or our lacquer thinner. Expert modelers, who use our paints on a regular basis, have discovered a harder paint shell is achieved when using our Tamiya lacquer thinner with our acrylics for airbrushing.

http://www.tamiyausa.com/paints/

 

BTW: unlike some of the opinions above, I have not noticed that Tamiya lacquer thins that much more slowly than X20. But I always put a little Golden retarder in the mix anyway. Hey, my airbrush doesn't clog anymore and that almost drove me mad for a few months. (I think that having a paint brush and water at the ready to wipe off the tip is more important. Homer Simpson would have figured that one out.)

So, the simple answer to try lacquer thinner with Tamiya paints is that it works better. I've only used Mr. Color once and don't remember it being tough stuff on the nose. Tamiya lacquer thinner is most certainly not. (Regardless of some posts in the threads above, Klean Strip "Green" Lacquer thinner is better than standard hardware stuff, but much stronger than Tamiya. I collect solvents.) If you're stocking up on Gunze you might try a small bottle of Mr. Color thinner. (I can't imagine Mr. Leveller being that much stronger: indeed, it has to be gentle enough to use on plastic, but they're adding solvents to the mixture and might make it a little rougher to the nose.) And then try it with Tamiya. It's not that you can't use ISA based thinner with Tamiya - zillions of modelers make it work regularly. But it's definitely true that some some circumstances lacquer thinner ads to Tamiya's quality. Makes it a lot like Gunze actually. That's not bad.

 

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
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  • From: Springfield, VA
Posted by vaw1975 on Sunday, October 2, 2011 8:04 AM

It's amazing how many opinions there are. Obviously one's personal technique and airbrush brand have a lot to do with it. I have sprayed with isopropyl alcohol (99%, 91% and 70%) and none worked well. The paint was dry as soon as it hit the model and sandpaper finish was hard to avoid. Even Golden retarder didn't work.

Then the X20A became available again and I got a bottle. What a difference!!! It is not isopropyl alcohol as many have stated. The label clearly says it's n-propanol (the straight-chain as opposed to branched isopropyl alcohol) and n-butyl alcohol. Now the paint actually flows super smoothly, and stays wet for 10-30 seconds once it hits the surface. Gone are the sandpaper finishes and I can't imagine a smoother finish than what I am getting now. Even if the lacquer thinner works better, I cannot see how my finishes could be better and I prefer not to expose me, my child and my wife to toxic fumes. Clogging? I have never had my airbrush clog on me. Maybe it's related to design of the airbrush? I use an Iwata HP-CS.

(I'm a guy, despite the name)

On my bench: Hasegawa Hurricane Mk I

  • Member since
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  • From: DFW, Texas
Posted by NervousEnergy on Monday, October 3, 2011 10:39 AM

Yeah, I've had near perfect results with Tamiya and X-20A, and admit I've never tried spraying Tamiya with anything else.  I'm *just* a very small bit away from finishing my fourth model since coming back to the hobby last year, and this one is the first I've tried Tamiya with, and good lord what a difference.  I like the finish with Vallejo Model Air, but had constant problems with tip-dry, clogging and spattering, even with copious amounts of Airbrush Medium, flow-aid, and retarder (the airbrush medium theoretically contains all of those).  

I used Mr Color & Mr Leveling Thinner on the third model, an Me 262, and had awesome success with only a few boneheaded moves on my part (none on the paints part).  Just didn't like having to prep the area so much (ventilation, heavy organics mask, exit fans, etc.) to make sure I wasn't breathing Toluene.  Hence the trying out Tamiya and X-20A.

I'm still on the fence about it, and I'd value opinions on Tamiya vs. Gunze Mr Color (especially from Eric, as he seems to have a lot more experience with them).  If I'm going to switch to spraying the lacquer thinner (Mr Leveling Thinner) pretty much all of the time, then which is the paint with better performance?  Gunze or Tamiya?  I completely get that Tamiya behaves better with Lacquer thinner (but it's still plenty nice with X-20A), but the color selection is anemic compared to Gunze.  If I'm going to go through the trouble of spraying the nasty stuff more often, I'd rather use paint that doesn't have to be mixed to get the hue I want.  Is Tamiya with Mr Leveling Thinner significantly better than Gunze with the same thinner?

And yes, the variety of opinions and experience on this forum is amazing, especially for a beginner like myself.  I've learned you can make just about anything work with the right kind of prep.  I'm now in the phase of trying to minimize screwups.  :-)

  • Member since
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  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Monday, October 3, 2011 4:42 PM

I've used Tamiya lacquer thinner with Gunze with fine results. I have Mr. Color thinner in St. Paul so I can't make a direct comparison smell wise, but do not remember it being a trouble. Tamiya lacquer thinner is not. (I'm trying out Revell-Germany's Aqua Colors that claim to be "self-levelling." I can't swear the claim is true, but there's no question that if you use common sense techniques that brush strokes are extremely hard to detect. I'd wonder if Gunze's Levelling brand is designed for brush painting - I do know that Gunze has real fans among the sci-fi and minitature modelers and both use the brush a lot.)

A model paint maker would have to "tone down" lacquer  thinner greatly from the hardware store types. Your standard "lacquer thinner" is a very powerful solvent and to my mind is only useful for cleaning things where it has come in handy. The Klean Strip Green is "lacquer-like" so is made up of some other brew. I still wouldn't use it on a model. I have no idea what Tamiya's chemists use, but it has nowhere near the strength or odor of the real deal. BTW: if you are concerned about health matters there's no such thing as a "safe" paint, at least when coming out of an airbrush. The pigment itself is going to be in the air and in theory one should always have a mask. (I admit to forgetting.) As for Tamiya or Gunze, there's a reason that "toxic" and "flammable" are on the label.

Where lacquer thinner really helps with Tamiya is when you try something like described by Adam Wilder - painting with a thin ratio of paint to thinner at low psi and putting on multiple coats. One might guess that whatever the suspension medium employed by Tamiya (it is certainly not water ) serves as a kind of glue - the way polymer does in an artist acrylic. Break the integrity of the paint down with too much thinning agent and you get splatter.  I find that happens with X-20. When I still used it, I tried to keep X-20 at 25% max of the mix: I'll use Tamiya lacquer at 75%. I think this is why Model Air cautions against thinning at all or calls for a very small amount of water. Model Color, much better in my view, requires acrylic mediums. Look at Vallejo's version of "clear" or any varnish - it's milky white - just like the acrylic mediums.

I find little to chose between Gunze and Tamiya - I wouldn't mix them directly but use them both if I'm using solvent based paints on a kit. (I usually rotate.) Perhaps the color from Gunze is a little richer, but it isn't always them more accurate. Gunze is one of the few makers that has a USN "Navy Blue" (5N) - I think it's much too dark and too blue as opposed to grey. That could be a fluke. 

As for tip clogging, Mig Jimenez's new company AK Interractive, has a new DVD out on weathering with acrylics designed for folk that would rather leave solvlents behind completely. (Makes a lovely model, but Mig Jimenez could make a lovely model out of anything.) When he does "low and slow" painting, he takes off the protective cover from the nozzle so he can periodically dab the tip clean with a paintbrush and water. My Evolution allows easy access, so that's not necessary, but it is the easiest and most effective way to get rid of any clogging problem. Phil Foley of the wonderful site Foley Models (formerly Promodeller)  has a blizzard of video builds. He used to be a Tamiya & X-20 devotee but has lately been using a lot more Vallejo and Xtracrylix - both water based. And now he's got his cleaning paintbrush next to his airbrush. Try this out no matter what paint or thinner you use. If you watch it, you'll see the tip start to pick up residue pretty fast - a little dab with a moist brush and it's ready to go. That residue may not clog the operation completely, but is one of the reasons that you might get an annoying surprise after a color change.  

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    August 2011
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by GreenThumb on Monday, October 3, 2011 8:45 PM

EBergerud

As for tip clogging, Mig Jimenez's new company AK Interractive, has a new DVD out on weathering with acrylics designed for folk that would rather leave solvlents behind completely. (Makes a lovely model, but Mig Jimenez could make a lovely model out of anything.) When he does "low and slow" painting, he takes off the protective cover from the nozzle so he can periodically dab the tip clean with a paintbrush and water. My Evolution allows easy access, so that's not necessary, but it is the easiest and most effective way to get rid of any clogging problem. Phil Foley of the wonderful site Foley Models (formerly Promodeller)  has a blizzard of video builds. He used to be a Tamiya & X-20 devotee but has lately been using a lot more Vallejo and Xtracrylix - both water based. And now he's got his cleaning paintbrush next to his airbrush. Try this out no matter what paint or thinner you use. If you watch it, you'll see the tip start to pick up residue pretty fast - a little dab with a moist brush and it's ready to go. That residue may not clog the operation completely, but is one of the reasons that you might get an annoying surprise after a color change.  

That is why many airbrushes like the Badger 155 have the needle tip exposed. T-shirt airbrush artists have been picking the paint off the tip of the airbrush with their fingernails while spraying just air to clean the tip for many years. That is where I learned it from some 20 years ago and I think that is partly why I have less tip dry problems than many.

Mike

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: DFW, Texas
Posted by NervousEnergy on Tuesday, October 4, 2011 9:54 AM

EBergerud

A model paint maker would have to "tone down" lacquer  thinner greatly from the hardware store types. Your standard "lacquer thinner" is a very powerful solvent and to my mind is only useful for cleaning things where it has come in handy. The Klean Strip Green is "lacquer-like" so is made up of some other brew. I still wouldn't use it on a model. I have no idea what Tamiya's chemists use, but it has nowhere near the strength or odor of the real deal. BTW: if you are concerned about health matters there's no such thing as a "safe" paint, at least when coming out of an airbrush. The pigment itself is going to be in the air and in theory one should always have a mask. (I admit to forgetting.) As for Tamiya or Gunze, there's a reason that "toxic" and "flammable" are on the label.

Yes, all paints do have some hazard, and I'll typically wear a light dust mask when AB'ing (erm... 'most' of the time. :-)), but the tuloene / xylene in lacquer thinner is a different story.  You can't smell them (well, the Xylene has a bit of a sweet smell), but they're extremely hazardous... much, much more so than alcohol.  I'm an IT guy, but I've worked for a chemical company that produces these and other benzene derivatives for over a decade now, and a healthy respect / fear of these substances is baked into the culture.  Perhaps this causes me to over-react.  It's certainly likely that Gunze Mr Thinner is a lot lower strength then the generic can of lacquer thinner I use to clean the AB after a Mr Color session, but if it doesn't have acetone and/or tuloene (much more likely the latter, as it's a bit safer) then it's not really lacquer thinner.  And once again, remember that the nasty organic vapors in them can't be detected by smell.

EBergerud

I find little to chose between Gunze and Tamiya - I wouldn't mix them directly but use them both if I'm using solvent based paints on a kit. (I usually rotate.) Perhaps the color from Gunze is a little richer, but it isn't always them more accurate. Gunze is one of the few makers that has a USN "Navy Blue" (5N) - I think it's much too dark and too blue as opposed to grey. That could be a fluke. 

Eric

Thanks... that's what I was looking for.  The color seems fine on both, but Tamiya, for example, doesn't really have much in the RLM line.  Gunze has pretty much the whole set.  Gunze also has the specific hues for the various internal paints used on Japanese aircraft, and a Tamiya Zero is going to be on deck soon.  

My Grex does have a removable splatter cone (magnetic, so it's very easy to take on and off), and I've done that to swab out the tip when spraying Vallejo.  It's a 30-60 second thing, though, compared to going a whole color session with solvent paint.  And if you forget when concentrating and spraying something fine/small, the problem will announce itself in paint spatter.  I've also not been able to feather Vallejo well at all, such as fading out a mottle pattern on the 190.  The paint looks more like tiny little droplets getting farther apart as I fade it, vs. Gunze or Tamiya looking more like it should... a gradual lightening of hue till it disappears as I slowly lift off the trigger.  Admittedly this is only visible when you get really close to the model so it's not a problem when viewing in person, but with any kind of close-up photography it's painfully evident.

  • Member since
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Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 4:06 AM

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OK: now I’m getting interested. It’s a good idea to know your tools. Whether there’s a safety issue involved or not, I think understanding the stuff you work with will lead to better results.

Here’s some interesting stuff on “lacquer” thinners.

On “Extra Strength” Ace Lacquer Thinner the following appears on the label (after all kinds of Highly Flammable, Use only in Well Ventilated Room warnings):

Contains methanol, toluene, acetone, glycol ether, petroleum Distillates, Ketones and Esters.

Ace also sells Klean Strip Green Lacquer Thinner which is described as a “substitute for regular lacquer thinner.” It claims to be biodegradable, “contains 99% less hazardous  air pollutants than regular lacquer thinner” and “contains no petroleum distillates.” It does contain: acetone, Ethel acetate, and methyl ethyl ketone.

I use Extra Strength only for very ugly cleaning emergencies and the stuff is really potent. (Amazing how well it gets rid of paint stains though.) I use Klean Strip for airbrush cleaning and it is much milder than Extra Strength, but still strong and I’m not sure I’d use it on plastic.

I was not able to find the MSDS for Tamiya thinner. I did find it for Mr. Color Thinner. (Who knows, Japan may have more lax rules on stuff like this. You can get a MSDS, a list of warnings for solvents, for about anything in a hardware store. ) Anyway, here’s what’s in Mr. Color:

isobutyl alcohol, Pentanone, methyl-Ethanol, butoxy-Pentanone, 4-hydroxy

 

And Wikipedia has to have its say. It claims that tuloene has a paint thinner smell and that xylene has the very faint sweet odor.  They also claim that xylene is only used as a paint solvent if one desires a slower drying time. As noted, only Extra Strength has tuloene listed as an active ingredient.

 

I’m no chemist but it’s obvious that what you could call a “lacquer thinner” varies all over the map. You said you found Gunze’s Leveling Thinner  strong stuff. That is not my recollection – but I only used Mr. Color Thinner. I don’t know what the leveling agent is, but I’d guess it’s to help Gunze with hand brushing. Gunze is very popular with sci-fi and miniature modelers and they use the paintbrush a lot. So if you used regular Mr. Color, you might find it easier stuff. Regardless only the first hardware store brand contains toluene. I’d be very surprised if Tamiya lacquer thinner did. Tamiya needs a lacquer thinner because of their very wide sale of lacquer spray paints – it is also recommended for their putty. (Thinning epoxies is something lacquer thinners seem to be required to do.) This would not need be anything powerful: I have some Revell-Germany Aqua Color water based acrylics and they claim to be “self leveling.” I’d say their boast is close to the truth. I’ve painted a goodly patch of Konig by hand and the brush strokes are almost invisible. Anyway, if you don’t hand paint, you might want to give Mr. Color a try. I do recall using Mr. Color thinner with Tamiya paints very successfully.

Doesn’t look to me that we’re looking at any serious problems here of any kind as long as you don’t drink or sniff stuff. Acetone and ketone, both listed above, are created by the body and increased levels of ketone, if you believe Dr. Atkins will make you thin if not rich. That said, hard core lacquers can be pretty hard core if simple experience is any guide.  I’ve been told that  Alclad is potent stuff. I only use Tamiya spray paint outside.

Lastly, I’d guess problems with feathering Vallejo comes from over-thinning with water or alcohol. I used Golden on a Sopwith Camel recently for exactly that effect (rotary engines shoved out huge amounts of oil onto the sides and underneath the aircraft using them) and got excellent results. I had the stuff heavily thinned with airbrush medium, GAC 200 and retarder:  sprayed at maybe 10psi at an inch away and put very light pressure on the brush.  The ratio was probably 70% medium to 30% paint give or take

 Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
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  • From: DFW, Texas
Posted by NervousEnergy on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 10:42 AM

EBergerud
I was not able to find the MSDS for Tamiya thinner. I did find it for Mr. Color Thinner. (Who knows, Japan may have more lax rules on stuff like this. You can get a MSDS, a list of warnings for solvents, for about anything in a hardware store. ) Anyway, here’s what’s in Mr. Color:
isobutyl alcohol, Pentanone, methyl-Ethanol, butoxy-Pentanone, 4-hydroxy
Doesn’t look to me that we’re looking at any serious problems here of any kind as long as you don’t drink or sniff stuff. Acetone and ketone, both listed above, are created by the body and increased levels of ketone, if you believe Dr. Atkins will make you thin if not rich. That said, hard core lacquers can be pretty hard core if simple experience is any guide.  I’ve been told that  Alclad is potent stuff. I only use Tamiya spray paint outside.
 Eric

Excellent!  I've looked for the MSDS for Mr Color thinners before but only found Japanese information.  That's pretty mild, and much less toxic than I was expecting.  The 'leveling' version simply contains a retarder (from what I've read), and I'd be surprised if the retarder was anything too caustic.  I was expecting tuloene or acetone in the main solvent mix.  I haven't tried the non-leveling version, but have been supremely happy with how the Mr Color paint behaved with the leveling thinner, and especially happy with how Mr Surfacer 1200 went down thinned 3-1 with it.

That's the next MSDS I need to track down, as the Mr Surfacer stuff has a fairly strong odor.  Following the suggestions of several here I used it to back the Mr Color paint on the 262, and it worked perfectly.  After the Mig 3 is finished the next plane up will be trumpeters P-47 D-30, and I'll be trying Alclad for the first time.  I've seen very good results with leveled Mr Surfacer 1200 polished and buffed perfectly smooth, then Tamiya gloss black sprayed over that.

I only thin Vallejo with either future or Golden airbrush medium (which is nearly identical to the 'official' Vallejo thinner), but didn't use a separate retarder.  The medium is supposed to contain one.  What retarder did you use, if I might ask?  Just googled GAC 200... first I've heard of it.  What effect did it have?  It's obvious I need to work on my acrylic brewing skills.  Of course, this just confirms for me that feathering with Mr Color is essentially 'easy mode'.  You thin it with leveling thinner and spray it on.  

Thanks for tracking down that Gunze MSDS!

  • Member since
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Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, October 5, 2011 3:46 PM

GAC is a hardener in polymer form - different numbers, different levels of hardener. (A good place to check all of this stuff is the very good *** Blick web site: essential for dio fans too. Lots of info of all types - very different market than a crafts store like Michael's. Just search acrylic mediums and you'll see about 100.)  This allows Golden paints (I use Golden fluids but all the brands have the same mediums) to be used on ceramics, metal or plastic and not scratch as easily. (That tip came from one of Golden's chemists.) Acrylic retarder is clear and mixed with water at about 10:1 - another item all companies make. I mix it with flow aid, another clear solvent that is mixed 10:1 with water. Airbrush medium does have retarder in it - as does a related but not quite the same medium called Airbrush Extender. None of this stuff has any toxic stuff in it at all. However, any medium like retarder that's water based can only be used in very small amounts. Artist acrylics are bonded with polymer (thinned if fluid) and water will break down the coherence of the paint and you get instant splatter. I'm sure that's what happens with stuff like Vallejo or Revell's terrific Aqua Color. This all sounds much more complicated than it is. The nice thing about artist acrylics is that you essentially design your own paint. Does require a little color mixing, but of course it's made to be mixed.

Good luck with Alclad. I've got some Hawkeye acrylic which is made specifically for natural finish. (They make an lacquer called SNJ which predated Alclad: there are videos for it on YouTube.) I've also got some Citadel that Phil Foley used with considerable success. (He built one kit with Alclad and one with Citadel: Alclad won, but not by much. Foley suggests a booth for Alclad.)

Eric 

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Saturday, October 8, 2011 8:24 PM

jesus, i just stopped reading all together. 

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

  • Member since
    September 2011
Posted by hckyguy1970 on Saturday, October 8, 2011 9:18 PM

I just wanted to say "thanks" for helping me find Spruebrothers.com!  Lotsa neat stuff in there...thanks!

 

Matt

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Sunday, October 9, 2011 3:32 AM

If you quit reading all together instead of altogether you haven't read much anyway.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    February 2011
  • From: Monterey Bay,CA-Fort Bragg, NC
Posted by randypandy831 on Sunday, October 9, 2011 10:33 AM

you neither use X-20 or not. don't need a life write up on it. 

tamiya 1/48 P-47D $25 + shipping

tamiya 1/48 mosquito $20+ shipping

hobby boss 1/48 F-105G. wings and fuselage cut from sprue. $40+ shipping. 

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