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clear matt coat suggestions

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  • Member since
    November, 2004
clear matt coat suggestions
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Friday, August 16, 2019 2:41 PM

My Lancaster is taking shape but I have an issue.

The NATO black I am using as a replacement for RAF Night black is totally flat matt colour and just right as a replacement. Unfortunatly it shows up grease from handling.

 

Does anyone know of a totally flat matt clear coat I can airbrush on that doesn't leave white residue and can protect the paint so I can wipe off handling marks with a damp cloth??

 

TIA

 

James

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Friday, August 16, 2019 4:47 PM

Acrylic- Vallejo

Lacquer- I really like Alclad,its really dead flat

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Friday, August 16, 2019 8:18 PM

Tojo72
Acrylic- Vallejo Lacquer- I really like Alclad,its really dead flat
 

I second Tojo's Alclad recommendation. If you don't mind spraying lacquer, it is a no-brainer to spray and the finish is perfect every time. Since you want the dullest flat you can get, you want to use this one:

ALC-314 KLEAR KOTE FLAT

Alclad names stuff funny. TheirFLAT is flatter than their MATTE.

And I have a suggestion. If you want to try Vallejo acrylic, test spray first. This stuff is finicky to spray, and you could end up with that white frosting if you do it wrong.

Me, I haven't really found an acrylic flat I am comfortable with. I've stuck with the Alclad so far. Oh, and you should also be able to count on good 'ol Testor's Dullcoat.

Sounds like Tojo has spraying the Vallejo flat varnish figured out if you want some spraying tips from him.

2 cents

-Greg

  • Member since
    March, 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Friday, August 16, 2019 8:45 PM
Thanks Greg,I found I can manage it with their thinner and flo improver

  • Member since
    August, 2019
  • From: Northern Nevada
Posted by HighDesertmodeler on Friday, August 16, 2019 10:34 PM

Vallejo Matt Acrylic Varnish #26518 (quick drying) but thin it about 1/3 with distilled water.

  • Member since
    November, 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Saturday, August 17, 2019 6:39 AM

Testors Dullcoat is available in both bottles and spray cans.  I like it and keep both on hand.

 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Saturday, August 17, 2019 10:29 AM

Thanks guys. I think I will give the Alclad a try.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Thursday, August 29, 2019 5:53 AM

I remember now why I very rarely use clear coats.

To try and lessen the shine on the MRP marking paints I bought a bottle of Alclad flat. Following the instructions to the letter this is the result. Uncoated to the left, flat coat to the right.

 

Clearly visible a white bloom from the flat coat. This means that I will have to get some more masks and repaint the roundel. The same on the tail fins too.

 

before you all comment on the colours, This is my new replacement camera the D750 and I am still working stuff out and playing with the menus and settings. It is a different beast to the D700 which the insurance company finally laid to rest after I gave them a military chewing out for their valuers and repairers who said they had repaired it and never even touched it apart from making it look clean!

So I will have to wait until some more red paint comes and new roundels.

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Thursday, August 29, 2019 8:51 AM

Since I recommended the Alclad, I feel badly you are having troubles.

Not sure what happened, I've never had any of the alclad solvent-based clears frost up, which is why I use them.

 

-Greg

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Thursday, August 29, 2019 12:04 PM

You could see it happen as I was putting the stuff on! At 18 psi!

not sure why something like this happens, but the bottle had been well shaken up etc.

  • Member since
    August, 2019
  • From: Northern Nevada
Posted by HighDesertmodeler on Friday, August 30, 2019 9:03 PM
Live and learn, I also had some problems with various matt coats until I switched to Vallejo quick dry formula. Personally, I wouldn’t spray a matt coat on RAF WW2, satin coat is preferable (for me that is) and less likely to whiten your decals (fact).
  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Saturday, August 31, 2019 11:12 AM

snapdragonxxx

You could see it happen as I was putting the stuff on! At 18 psi!

not sure why something like this happens, but the bottle had been well shaken up etc.

 

A few things come to mind. Maybe you are spraying too far away, or your paint to air mixture is too lean (if using double action, not pulling back trigger far enough). Either or both can cause atomized paint to dry whilst airborne and that will cause frosting. I won't spray any clear with a needle smaller than .5mm as that can cause trouble with clears, too.

All that said, by the looks of your Lancaster you know all this stuff already so I hope my guesses about what might be happening are not offensive in any way. I've just had such good luck with Alclad it hurts me to hear of your struggles.

Still, any flat coat will lighten the underlying paint to some degree. Say, on that note, on that roundel frosting, did you lay down a coat of clear gloss over the decals and let it dry completely before you spayed on the Alclad flat?

-Greg

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Saturday, August 31, 2019 5:11 PM

Not decals, Greg. I'm using masks on everything apart from the small text for stencils.

Some decals are just too big, and the scale wing roundels are huge. 102 inch in real life!

I will order some more roundel masks on Thursday. It is not really putting me back timewise, as I have plenty to do on the kit still.

I think I will just live with the sheen from the paint.

I think I will paint up some spoons and have a practice with them to see if it is my technique that is at fault and to work out if it is me or the product that is at fault!

I did have a problem with Alclad once and that was some steel that just refused to dry and cure. It remained tacky and ruined my build of ZM Horten flying wing! Since then I have moved onto Vallejo's Model Color and AK's Xtreme Metal ranges.

I use this stuff to cover my metals as they don't like being masked or touched much when done and never had an issue with it such as frosting etc.

I just load the airbrush and spray it on. It is totally opaque, but goes on clear... I find it hard to make out if my airbrush is actually putting it on but it does it's job and I can mask and touch with confidence

  • Member since
    May, 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Saturday, August 31, 2019 5:46 PM

Painted on roundels are always best, I'm sorry I missed that and assumed they were decals. That nixes my clear gloss top coat concern.

It sounds like you have good alternative products. I wish you continued luck and again I'm sorry my product endorsement messed you up. I sure didn't mean it to.

That top wing repaint job looks top shelf and I'd be tempted to live with a slight sheen, too. It isn't even evident in the pics.

-Greg

  • Member since
    August, 2019
  • From: Northern Nevada
Posted by HighDesertmodeler on Saturday, August 31, 2019 6:18 PM
My apologies as well, thought you were using decals. I still suggest a satin coat, which is a good surface for subsequent weathering
  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Sunday, September 01, 2019 11:53 AM

Thanks guys for the help.

Don't worry about what's happened. We all live and learn. I will just order some more masks and repaint the roundel and live with the sheen!

I was actually concerned about the blue for the roundels but I found a reference to AMO and MAP paint instructions that says that the blue in the roundel is 105 Oxford Blue.

When you look at the two roundels on the wing and the fuselage they look different shades (same with the red) and this is a good lesson on colours and why you should ditch the scale correction stuff and go with the authentic chipset colours

The paints on the insignia are MRP Marking Red, Marking Yellow, Vallejo insignia white and MRP 105 Oxford Blue.

The apparant shade difference between the blue and red is due to the white and black and the camouflage colours as the background. Both the camera firmware (old Fujo S5500) and our own subconcious that interprets the data that our eyes send have changed the colours to stand out more against the different backgrounds. This is also altered by our own personal experience of colours and the rods and cones in our eyes (everybody has differerent amounts of both in each eye).

the blue and red on the fuselage looks different because of the white, yellow and black as our subconcious brain tells our concious brain to seperate the colours more. The yellow is not as deep in the photo as it really is (camera firmware) but the blue and red look darker.... they aren't, but that's our own internal colour matching system and detail enhancer that we don't realise is operating!

You will also notice, that in the next photo, the conde letters look a different colour too, They are the same colour as the red in the roundel but it is the background and our brain enhancing the detail!

Once you realise that companies like AK and MIG that subscribe to the scale correct paint theory are further muddying the waters you will realise that maybe your last paint job doesn't look as right as you thought.

  • Member since
    August, 2019
  • From: Brisbane Australia
Posted by Josh_the_painter on Monday, September 02, 2019 8:07 AM

I just thought I would add my 2c here in regards to the flat clear coat to give an idea of how they work. Once you have a solid understanding of the product, spraying it is much easier to get consistent results. 

Matt/ satin clears are regular clears that contain silica. For anyone unsure silica is a glass. The glass particles are degraded in acid which gives them a very rough texture. Silica is what we call a migratory pigment, as the solvent evaporates from your clear and dries, the silica all floats or migrates to the top of the clear coat and distorts the light refraction. The higher the concentration of silica, the more matt the finish will be.

The secret to spraying matt well is 2 things, drying time and wetness of application. The longer the product stays open (wet for) the longer the silica has to all find its way to the surface, so if you can retard the product it helps. Its an advantage to apply the coats as consistently as possible and reasonably wet. A second coat once the first has tacked off will actually pick up the silica on the top of the first coat and carry it to the top of the next coat! Again the clear needs to stay open for as long as possible to achieve a consistant result. 

Snapdragonxxx now the issue you showed with the frosted area is where there is a higher concentration of silica and your getting more light distortion. I would almost guarantee a second, wet coat of matt clear would have evened the finish out. It may not be the way you choose to finish your work but I thought it may help explain the process taking place if you wish to ever trial it again. Also of note the bigger the fluid tip of your airbrush the better, and while high pressure gives you nice fine atomisation when putting colours down for a nice thin coat, too finer atomisation of your flat clear will result in a thin coat that will dry too fast. 

One other thing to note, that concentration of silica on the surface of flat clears will slightly lighten your colour, the more coats the lighter it will become. Oddly enough you get the opposing effect with gloss clears with the more coats the more you darken a colour. 

Edit to add not all matt clears are created equal and give different levels of matt so testing panels is always an advantage. Most of the modelling specific clears should be ok but for people using various aerosols perhaps intended for art and craft etc it would be advisable to test.

I hope giving the information is ok and might help a few people. 

Josh

  • Member since
    July, 2013
  • From: Chicago area
Posted by modelmaker66 on Monday, September 02, 2019 2:30 PM

Excellent info. Never knew it and it is a great help Thanks for sharing it.

  • Member since
    November, 2004
Posted by snapdragonxxx on Thursday, September 05, 2019 1:46 PM

Thanks for this. I used a 0.4 nozzle and a low air pressure.

I have decided to redo the offending areas in paint and leave it at that! New Masks have been ordered.

  • Member since
    August, 2019
  • From: Brisbane Australia
Posted by Josh_the_painter on Thursday, September 05, 2019 2:54 PM

snapdragonxxx

Thanks for this. I used a 0.4 nozzle and a low air pressure.

I have decided to redo the offending areas in paint and leave it at that! New Masks have been ordered.

 

 

No worries! And that setup and pressure would be good. 

And realistically it is quite cool painting instead of decals and clearing. Its not like on the prototype the boys got out there and cleared the plane after painting all the markings. And your masking is sweet, very crisp with no lifted edges.... a work of art to behold Yes

Josh

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