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Disappearing Wrinkles of Decal after Micro Sol Is Applied

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  • Member since
    December 2011
Disappearing Wrinkles of Decal after Micro Sol Is Applied
Posted by Chrisk-k on Sunday, May 31, 2015 12:31 AM

I know Micro Sol or Solvaset will initially make a decal wrinkle, but eventually the decal will conform to the surface and wrinkles will disappear.

What magical force causes the decal to automatically conform to the surface? 

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Sunday, May 31, 2015 11:35 AM

I suspect it shrinks as it dries.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    April 2009
  • From: Longmont, Colorado
Posted by Cadet Chuck on Sunday, May 31, 2015 1:32 PM

Ancient Chinese secret!

Gimme a pigfoot, and a bottle of beer...

  • Member since
    April 2015
Posted by Scarecrow Joe on Sunday, May 31, 2015 2:43 PM

I could tell you but would have to kill you.

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by Silver on Sunday, May 31, 2015 4:00 PM
Don't worry I won't kill you or tell any secrets.The decal actually expands to conform to any raised or engraved surface then it shrinks slowly a little bit.Do not over kill on your decal solution.
  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Sunday, May 31, 2015 4:00 PM

Hello!

Sometimes the wrinkles stay - I just have something like that with Hasegawa decals. I used three setting solutions on them - Micro Sol/Set, Mr Mark Softer and Solvaset - and all of them cause the decals to wrinkle, and the wrinkles stay as the decals dry - minor but annoying. The declas don't look painted on, but have a scale "old vinyl stickers" effect to them, which is not quite what I wanted... I suppose it could have something to do with the underlying surface - same model, same decal sheet but the severity of the effect varies. So maybe I didn't apply enough future under there. It also seems to get more severe when I add more solution early in the process. I guess the point here is always to make a test on a correctable place before plugging away full time. Good luck with your builds and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    December 2011
Posted by Chrisk-k on Sunday, May 31, 2015 4:42 PM

Besides shrinking, doesn't a bonding action of the adhesive at the back of the decal play a role?  What about gravity?

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Sunday, May 31, 2015 4:53 PM

Hello!

Some kind of force certainly pulls the decal into recesses - it might be some form of sticking, but it also might have something to do with the setting solution evaporating through the decal, bringing the model surface and the decal foil closer together. I certainly like to have the decals oriented so, together with the model, to let gravity help - mainly in keeping the decal solution on the decal and not dripping down.

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    April 2013
Posted by KnightTemplar5150 on Sunday, May 31, 2015 6:50 PM
One way of understanding how the process works is to think of coloring Easter eggs. The dye to color eggs is disolved in vinegar, which causes the dye to set into the shell and fixes it in place so that it becomes difficult to smear, lift, or scratch once dried. Vinegar is essentially acetic acid, the active ingredient in decal setting solutions. Take a sniff and you'll get the idea. Most solutions (setting and solvent) are varying dilutions of acid, water, and a bit of detergent.


The acetic acid essentially reacts with the carrier film and dissolves it, hence the wrinkling. As it begins to dry and evaporate, the inks left behind are literally pulled to the surface and set just as the Easter egg dye. The decal looks "painted on" because it is...at least, in part. It goes back down to the original position because there is just enough carrier film left over the ink to guide things into place - use too much solution and dissolve that layer and you wind up shattering the decal.


The effects of gravity are pretty negligible - you can decal the underside of an aircraft's wing and leave the decal to set while it's resting on its wheels with no sagging or shifting. The adhesive certainly plays a role in things - try oversoaking a decal and then using solutions to get them to draw down on the model. Odds are good that it will just make a mess. Good technique and attention to the details in application are essential.
  • Member since
    December 2011
Posted by Chrisk-k on Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:14 PM

@Knight

Your explanation makes perfect sense.  I was always curious about the force behind the process.

Iwata HP-CS | Iwata HP-CR | Iwata HP-M2 | H&S Evolution | Iwata Smart Jet + Sparmax Tank

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Sunday, May 31, 2015 8:42 PM

The old disappearing wrinkles on the decal trick! We can talk about that only under The Cone of Silence.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Monday, June 1, 2015 12:45 AM

KnightTemplar5150 - Thanks a lot for the explanation! But how about the wrinkles NOT disappearing? Why would this happen, and more importantly, how to prevent it? Thanks in advance for any help here and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    April 2013
Posted by KnightTemplar5150 on Monday, June 1, 2015 8:28 AM

Good morning, Pawel!

There are a few possibilities to explore here and I have to caution you that it really depends on the individual situation. I can only comment on what I have experienced personally in hopes that you or someone else can avoid my mistakes.

In some cases, the problem lies with the decals themselves. For instance, during the mid to late 1990's, Revell-Monogram issued a few kits with instructions to avoid using setting solutions and solvents. But, I'm a creature of habit and I ignored the warnings to go about business as usual. The solutions caused nothing but problems and I wound up having to purchase aftermarket decal sheets to replace what I had destroyed - an expensive lesson to learn.

I've also had wrinkling problems with older decals which are either excessively thick or old enough that the adhesives have begun to break down. I see this most often with the "vintage" kits I pick up off of e-Bay. What I suspect is happening in those cases is that as the setting solution evaporates, it is reacting with the old adhesives and the gases get trapped under the decal. In most cases, using a sharp knife or a pin to create a vent in the decal allows the gases to escape properly and a few more applications of solution seem to solve the problem.

Other mistakes I have made include cross-contamination on the bench. In the past, I've just reached for whatever brush is handy when I am applying decals and that's not always wise. Residual thinners and paints can react with the acetic acid and cause real headaches for me, so now I keep a set of those goofy Testor's brushes around just for decal work. I don't find them to be of much use with anything else, so they are just about perfect for me,

I avoid most problems by paying very close attention to my technique:

* Allow the gloss coat to dry fully - if I can still smell the stuff, it's not done curing and the gases cause problems with silvering and wrinkling down the road.

* Test things before committing - on just about every decal sheet, there is a manufacturer logo or other trivial lettering that will never be used. I find those perfect to experiment with before I start to go after the decals which will actually make it to the model. If I screw them up, who cares? At least I can adjust things before tackling the finished project, right?

* Don't oversoak the decal - no more than 10 seconds in lukewarm water, then I set it on a paper towel until the decal moves easily on the backing sheet. If I soak it too long, it compromises the adhesive and it just doesn't stick well. The more adhesive on the decal, the better.

* Light coats of setting solution - if I use too much, it messes with the adhesive or leaves strange streaks of chalky white residue behind, so I just use a pass or two of setting solution where I want the decal to go. Excess has to be wicked up immediately with a paper towel to prevent staining, but I also suspect that the less moisture I leave under the decal, the less chance I have of dealing with trapped air and gases as things evaporate.

* I have to be certain to put the decal exactly where I want it the first time around -  if I play around too much with moving the decal, I wind up with problems.

* I improve my chances of avoiding wrinkles and problems by carefully working out the air pockets with a dampened cotton swab, taking care to pay close attention to recessed panel lines or areas where I have zimmerit or other irregular surfaces. The closer I can get things to settle in, the less chance there is later of me having to imagineer solutions to the problems I create.

* Let it dry completely before adding more solutions or solvents - when I first started using Micro Set and Sol, I was far too impatient and wanted to see immediate results, so I would use them liberally and often one right after the other in that quest for instant gratification. Not a smart thing to do... Just like with the gloss coat, if I can smell it, the stuff is not fully cured. It needs to be allowed to dry fully before moving forward. Now that I have learned a bit of patience, the Micro Set is normally all that I need to use and the Micro Sol is only pulled out in those cases where a decal is being particularly stubborn. Walther's Solvaset is the last resort for me because it runs so hot.

Anyhow, that's what works for me, Pawel. I hope it helps!

  • Member since
    January 2014
Posted by Silver on Monday, June 1, 2015 10:05 AM
Bad quality decals may cause the problem
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Monday, June 1, 2015 10:28 AM

There is a difference between setting solutions and solvent solutions.  They work differently.  Setting solution is a wetting agent to lower surface tension of water.  Solvents partially dissolve decal, making it stickier and softer.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    May 2009
  • From: Poland
Posted by Pawel on Monday, June 1, 2015 3:43 PM

KnightTemplar5150 - Thank you so much for taking time and writing down your experiences. I'm sure it's not only me, but many more people reading this will also find it very informative. Thanks again and have a nice day

Paweł

All comments and critique welcomed. Thanks for your honest opinions!

www.vietnam.net.pl

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: back country of SO-CAL, at the birth place of Naval Aviation
Posted by DUSTER on Thursday, June 4, 2015 10:18 PM

   Good Solid information Knight Templar ; it sure helps shed a bit of light on the murky world of decal set/solutions  

Steve

Building the perfect model---just not quite yet  Confused

  • Member since
    November 2008
  • From: Central Florida
Posted by plasticjunkie on Friday, June 5, 2015 9:07 AM

Lots of great info here and great explanation Knight Templar . That's why most of the time you hear people say that the decals will not pull up even with duct tape. One way to cheat and disguise those wrinkles (if minor) is to carefully chip along the wrinkle creating some paint chipping. Depending on how minor it is, it may look just perfect as weathering.

 GIFMaker.org_jy_Ayj_O

 

 

Too many models to build, not enough time in a lifetime!!

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by Souda99 on Monday, June 8, 2015 8:56 PM

OK I have a question is regards to the Solvi Set and Solvi Solution. Can they be put on a decal that was put on a few months ago to make then adhere better??

  • Member since
    January 2013
Posted by Souda99 on Monday, June 8, 2015 8:58 PM

Excuse me I meant MicroSol and MicroSet.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Tuesday, June 9, 2015 12:39 PM

Setting solution probably will not be useful for that, but solvent will indeed help with that. If that doesn't, try to put a half/half mix of white glue and water under decal, pat gently into place.

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

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