How bad is putty really?

AJB93 wrote:

Triarus: Paranoid is a bit harsh. I do not live my life in fear, so by that definition, I am not paranoid. I'm not sure about the "non-toxic" thing. Does this apply if it has the "conforms to ASTM whatever" label? I DO have a definite aversion to all chemicals. I just don't like them, I can't explain it.

Sorry, I didn't mean it harshly, I was just in a hurry at the moment. I should perhaps have said "You are being a little too paranoid." A little paranoia, now and then, is a good thing, IMHO. Your unexplained aversion to chemicals may not be what a shrink would call rational, but I'm sure not going to criticize it—even someone as overexposed as I've been could use a little more of that attitude.

Conforming to an ASTM standard does not necessarily mean anything with regard to toxicity—ASTM does not test for toxicity, it promulgates standards for testing, some of which are related to toxicity. ASTM stands for American Society for Testing Materials. 

JMart wrote:

...reminds me of when I used to take the general elevator with an handful of samples in my hand, in my lab coat, and some secretary would give me hassle over that (carrying closed tubes in the elevator) as she was going outside to SMOKE.... "safety" can be relative in the mind (and nose) of the beholder... And acrylics are NOT 100% safe, you still need a respirator as inhalation of particulate matter (even if chemically relatively inert) will inflame your lower respiratory tree as your lung immune system eats up the plastic aerosolized acrylic... make that aerosol larger and fiber-like instead of "round", and you can call that asbestos disease.... same disease mechanism! Sorry, I have to chime in with this info everytime I read someone stating that acrylics are 100% safe (of course, only applies to aerosolized acrylics, not hand brushed).

yes, acrylics are not 100% safe, I still use a respirator when I spray. I always wet sand no matter what. Triarus: Paranoid is a bit harsh. I do not live my life in fear, so by that definition, I am not paranoid. I'm not sure about the "non-toxic" thing. Does this apply if it has the "conforms to ASTM whatever" label? I DO have a definite aversion to all chemicals. I just don't like them, I can't explain it. 

Bgrigg wrote:

styrene wrote: Bill, Obviously you are approaching this from an extremely conservative aspect, and I applaud your stand.  Likewise, I didn't model with my children sitting on my lap.  As you suggest, a non- or less-toxic substitute is certainly one way to go, and that is indeed good practice (You would make a good IH!); however, I believe given a small apartment, waiting until the baby has gone into its room (or at least left the immediate area), and using the existing putty as it is intended would not signficantly affect exposures one way or the other.  Amounts used + air dilution factor for the apartment volume = LOWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww concentrations.  I would be willing to bet that applying aftershaves, colognes, and nail polish removers/polish would provide higher overall organic vapor concentrations more consistently and more often than the intermittent application of modelling putty. Gip LOL, I'm not sure what's in your shaving cream, but mine is the old fashioned soap and brush! Nail Polish often contains toluene in higher concentrations, so I would agree with your assessment. I am being extremely conservative in my opinion, but you are certanly the expert here on such matters.

TLP......thanks for the kind words about the trade....as you know, there is no a/c in summer until we turn it on....then we leave.....same with the heat. So this is our brutal time of year here in CT. But today we were in the 50's....so not too bad.

Yes, we get to know those 'contractors' that just walk in and declare the patient DOA....and others that can't figure something out. No one is perfect, of course, but the bad tradesmen become known......unfortunately not always to the consumer.

Haven't met anyone in your line before. Interesting.

The sig pic was your previous one! I wasn't sure if it was a pic of you that had been doctored in Paintshop or what. Those anguished eyes! Brrrrrr.....!

Nam 

styrene wrote:

Bill, Obviously you are approaching this from an extremely conservative aspect, and I applaud your stand.  Likewise, I didn't model with my children sitting on my lap.  As you suggest, a non- or less-toxic substitute is certainly one way to go, and that is indeed good practice (You would make a good IH!); however, I believe given a small apartment, waiting until the baby has gone into its room (or at least left the immediate area), and using the existing putty as it is intended would not signficantly affect exposures one way or the other.  Amounts used + air dilution factor for the apartment volume = LOWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww concentrations.  I would be willing to bet that applying aftershaves, colognes, and nail polish removers/polish would provide higher overall organic vapor concentrations more consistently and more often than the intermittent application of modelling putty. Gip

LOL, I'm not sure what's in your shaving cream, but mine is the old fashioned soap and brush!

Nail Polish often contains toluene in higher concentrations, so I would agree with your assessment. I am being extremely conservative in my opinion, but you are certanly the expert here on such matters.

...reminds me of when I used to take the general elevator with an handful of samples in my hand, in my lab coat, and some secretary would give me hassle over that (carrying closed tubes in the elevator) as she was going outside to SMOKE.... "safety" can be relative in the mind (and nose) of the beholder...

And acrylics are NOT 100% safe, you still need a respirator as inhalation of particulate matter (even if chemically relatively inert) will inflame your lower respiratory tree as your lung immune system eats up the plastic aerosolized acrylic... make that aerosol larger and fiber-like instead of "round", and you can call that asbestos disease.... same disease mechanism! Sorry, I have to chime in with this info everytime I read someone stating that acrylics are 100% safe (of course, only applies to aerosolized acrylics, not hand brushed).

Bill,

Obviously you are approaching this from an extremely conservative aspect, and I applaud your stand.  Likewise, I didn't model with my children sitting on my lap.  As you suggest, a non- or less-toxic substitute is certainly one way to go, and that is indeed good practice (You would make a good IH!); however, I believe given a small apartment, waiting until the baby has gone into its room (or at least left the immediate area), and using the existing putty as it is intended would not signficantly affect exposures one way or the other.  Amounts used + air dilution factor for the apartment volume = LOWWWWWWWWWWwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww concentrations.  I would be willing to bet that applying aftershaves, colognes, and nail polish removers/polish would provide higher overall organic vapor concentrations more consistently and more often than the intermittent application of modelling putty.

Gip

AJB93, see my post below yours. You are being paranoid.

BTW: legally, anything not proven beyond an unreasonable doubt to be toxic may be labeled as "non-toxic."

Become educated. Become informed. Think wisely, not in fear. 

When there is a potential for taking fire, erring on the side of caution is always wise.

In that regard, I'm like an old combat veteran with a slight superstition. I've been overexposed to the incoming fire from various toxins and carcinogens. When I hear bullets flying, my instinct is to find cover, fast. 

To mix the metaphor even more: The SAM (nasty substance) that gets you is usually the one you didn't see. One never ignores SAMs—it just "isn't done"—bad form and all that…

There is a difference between being careful and being paranoid. Careful is the middle ground. Most people are either careless or paranoid. The problem is that they are generally too inadequately educated to make good decisions even when they are adequately informed.

And Gip, I think there's one thing you left out: That no one knows (or can even adequately investigate) the cumulative effects of all these nasties over time. I worked with a man who died at sixty from brain, lung, and liver cancer. He was a heavy smoker. It's easy to say that smoking killed him. But he was also exposed to very small amounts of tetrahydrofuran vapor and rarely, liquid, every day for years. Did that have an effect? Impossible to say, because one cannot disprove a negative. Does that mean it did not? Ditto.

So should we throw up our hands and do nothing? Hardly. Reasonably educated and informed caution, erring on that side, is the only sensible course—and hope that is enough. If not, well, nobody lives forever—and excessive worry will kill you as surely as anything else.

Are you willing to suffer to learn? If not, you will almost certainly learn to suffer. 

WOW! And I thought I was on the edge of death because I sprayed acrylics without a respirator ONCE in my very well ventilated garage for about 3 seconds!

Everything I use is non-toxic.....glue, putty, acrylic paint, everything. I am extremely careful nonetheless. Glad I've been like that for most of my modeling career! No way I'm using anything labeled "Danger" or "Warning" ("Caution", maybe, in an emergency ;))!!

Gip,

I will always defer to your judgement, but the concern here is a small apartment with a very young infant. As I said in my earlier post if it was just the two adults then good ventilation is fine. However small children are MUCH more susceptible to intoxicants and chemicals like toluene, and therefore I stand by my recommendation to use a less hazardous product.

Common sense should always prevail, and here my common sense is to err on the side of caution. 

I will continue to use my tubes of Squadron White putty, until such time as they run out. I will look at the alternatives at that time, but will only use them if they are equal in quality. I have the luxury of a man cave, seperated from the rest of the house by a door, and well ventilated.

Cheers,

Bill 

For what it's worth, I would like to jump in here if I may. 

I've read Ross' and Bill's responses, along with some others, and some good points have been made.

1.  The labels on products are becoming increasingly "informationally saturated".  With liabilites being what they are, and everyone becoming more and more litigation-happy, manufacturers are having to provide these "mini-MSDS" in an effort to cover their hind parts.  They have no clue whether the user is building models, repairing autos at 5 tubes a pop, or sitting in an alley sniffing the stuff out of a plastic bag.  Manufacturers are providing GENERAL information in hopes of trying to cover all the bases where use (or abuse) can occur.  With that in mind....

2. ...Common sense is authorized.  The amount we modellers use is relatively insignificant compared to say, auto/truck body shops.  Exposures are driven by the frequency of use (how often), the duration of use (how long), the product used, the ingredients, and their concentrations.  Using a few toothpicks full of putty over an intermittent 30-minute period to cover a seam in your 1/48 kit does not equate to a significant exposure.  Most putties (auto body-type lacquer putties) are nothing more than thickened primers.  If you were able to instantaneously vaporize about 60ml of putty (that's a lot!) in an averaged size room, the concentrations in air of the all the putty solvents would be less than the thresholds needed to cause a bodily effect.  

I think I would be more concerned about having a pregnant wife drinking one beer every night than I would having her stand over me for 10-15 minutes while I apply a half-ounce of putty once or twice a week (Both ethanol and toluene have potential reproductive hazards associated with them.)

3.  Smelling a solvent does not mean an overexposure is occurring.  See no. 2 above.  Most organic solvents have an odor threshold several orders of magnitude below any dose-response effects.  Even if higher doses are received, the body has a remarkable means of metabolizing and excreting toxicants.  Generally speaking, problems (symptoms) arise when toxicant intake exceeds the body's metalbolic rate.

(My wife, too, will complain about the odors coming from my modelling area, but will sit in her chair in the den for an hour and remove all of her nail polish and then repaint her fingers and toes without making a peep.)

4.  Does this mean precautions should not be observed? Of course not.  Minimally, protective gloves (nitrile) and eyewear should be worn.  Using putty in a well-ventilated area should also be observed.  I would also ensure the baby is out of the way before applying solvent-based materials like paints.  Aerosols will increase exposure potentials much more quickly than semi-solids.

Use your putty appropriately, take the proper precautions, and you should be just fine.

No inspections, I am kind of like a claims adjuster for a home warranty company. When one of our plan holders calls and says their A/C (or other system or appliance) is not working we dispatch one of our network techs in the area(Contractors we have agreed pricing with) who then go to the property and diagnose. The contractor then calls my company and lets us know the specifics of the system, the malfunction, cause of malfunction and weather it was normal usage. I then determine if it is covered or not and if so I would order the condenser, air handler, compressor, god forbid a package unit or other equipment. Ship it to the contractor and have it installed. Or if it is not covered I just call the plan holder and advise of denial, then wait for the yelling to ensue. But now that I think of it we dont have plans in CT.

I was just curious to see if I had ever worked with your company over the phone, and also to let you know how much respect I have for men in your trade. It is a tough job and takes a good mix of technical knowledge and pure instinct gained over years of doing the job. I always find it funny I can send out one tech and they can spend 4 hours trying to daignose a unit and not figure it out, those are the ones that will constantly just say the unit needs to be replaced. Then I send out a good tech who can tell just by the sound or other small symptom and tell exactly what the problem is. A defrost control board later and we are in business. 

Oh and dont worry about it being off topic, its my topic and I can change the topic whenever I want. Which sig pic did you find disturbing? 

the nick is one I've had for many years....related to guitar building.....

I'm surprised that you can buy a toxic product where you live!

Not sure what your counterpart here in CT would be....but I would venture that you are an inspector of some sort. We don't subscribe to the organization you mention, but we sure have our share of inspectors to deal with. We just do residential heat and A/C.....most often for new builds or major additions.....most of our service calls are for things we installed.

Take care of that young one.....just get a little styrene in his nose now and then!

Sure glad you got away from that disturbing sig pic you had!

Nam 

Ya sorry bout the name recognition, I cant look at your name without reading it fenderman. its odd, The reason I ask is I work in the home warranty industry as an appliance and HVAC expert confirming coverage and purchasing equipment. I was curious if you work with Old Republic Home Protection?

I really appriciate everybodies feedback on this thread, while I havent really lived my life taking the best care of myself I do want better for my son. I went by micheals and picked up some non toxic modeling clay. I will be giving it a shot next time I have a seem to fill 

Yes Chris....still at it.........using my sheetmetal abilities on a paint booth(plugging my post under 'airbrush')

Got boiler or furnace troubles?

btw....good advice you've been getting in this thread. I used to pooh pooh such notions. Not anymore.

Nam

PS....and like the name recognition!

9 Toe Tanker wrote:

The dust is just as toxic if not much more toxic than the fumes are.

Actually, that may not be the case. Many fully cured polymers are essentially inert. HOWEVER

Unless you know, why take a stupid chance?

How do you know it's really fully cured?  

Almost any fine dust can be severely irritating to the respiratory system. Our respiratory systems get enough grief. Chronic irritation, too, can eventually be fatal, as in severe asthma and emphysema. 

There is a very simple preventative measure: Always wet sand. 

jhande wrote:

But if my wife can smell my farts before they leave my butt...

Nah. She just gets the EPA emergency bulletin…

One thing I'd like to point out after reading these responses thus far concerning Squadron Green or White putty is this....UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES INHALE THE SANDED DUST!!!

I know from experience that when we modelers apply putty and wait for it to dry...(we just can't wait to start sanding it!). When we sand we get a little dust and generaly just blow it off the surface and that airborne dust has to go somewhere.

The dust is just as toxic if not much more toxic than the fumes are.

TheLastPriest wrote:

"Honey I dont think you should use that anymore, im getting a headache".

With that and an infant about, best to use less toxic products.

Better to be safe now than sorry later.

Yes Ross I realize that a sniff test is not a proper way to detect toxic fumes. But if my wife can smell my farts before they leave my butt...

First off, a thanks to Bill for carrying the torch!  Heed his advice—ignore it at your peril, and the peril of those around you.

A few things I'd like to add. They've been said before, but not in this thread:

1. Smell (by humans) is the worst indicator of the presence of any chemical. If you can smell it, you need better ventilation. Furthermore, some very nasty chemicals deaden your ability to smell them after brief exposure. Some have little or no odor.
   
2. Carcinogens are like bullets. It only takes one molecule at the wrong place at the wrong time to kill you.
3. Toxins have a threashold limit for adverse effects. Concentrations below that limit are not necessarily harmless, but are less likely to be harmfull either long or short term. The threshold limits are much lower for infants and children than for adults and are generally unknown.

There are less dangerous alternatives to body putty, many have already been mentioned.

Eternal vigilence is not merely the price of liberty. It is the price of life, itself. 

wow....lotta reading to get up to speed. But 20-odd years ago when I had 2-3 tubes of Sq. Green with all the !!!Toluene!!! warnings.....fuselages, wings etc. laying around....no one ever detected a scent from the putty unless within 2-3 feet of my bench....and that was when the tube was open.

 I'm not saying it's all safe......but ventilate your area. That's the best preventative. Try not to sniff from the tube......and TLP.....prolly not good to have the kid near it. Or Chinese toys

Nam 

I found some irony in your comment about smoking in the car with the windows rolled up and your concern about putty I agree with the comments on toluene, and using chemicals in well ventilated areas away from others. Smoking dulls your ability to smell. I have alergies and when I smoked they went away, now after over 30 years of not smoking, my wife still smells things I don't. My wife picked up some sculpting clay which is very easy to work with. No odors etc. I am going to try using it when I do some zimmerit applications. I would think most artist supply places would have it. You probably will have to seal it with Future as I don't know how good it will take to paint.

Ed

Well, you know your woman better than I do! Women tend to have a keener sense of smell than men. Toluene tends to "spread" faster at room temperature, so I can see it affecting someone across the room. My wife can tell if I'm brush painting or using putty from upstairs!

Treading on the side of caution is always a good idea with a baby. I have teenagers now, and I often wonder if solvents are at fault for the way their brain works, but I suspect it's just being 13 and 16! After all, I seem to recall a period of time during adolesence when certain parts of my own brain seemingly shut down!

Bgrigg, I do not consider you a fear monger by any sense and am subscribing more towards your train of thought regarding all this one due to you are confirming my own fears and also due to your advice is always trusted on my end. That said my wife is a hypochondriac, maybe not clinicly but she sure is close, she is always sick or in pain from something or another, generally due to something she just learned about. Cant say I am any better though.

In this case though I was sitting there using the stuff right next to the door and she was 15ft away. I would be inclined to believe if she was not giving herself a headache through worrying she was attempting to use examples rather than just say "I dont feel comfortable with you using that in here" either way between her "having a headache" and my own erring on the side of caution I think I will save the putty for times when I can work outside(been storming pretty good around here lately. well for california at least). I think we will head down to michaels tomorrow and seek other alternitives.

Just irritates me that the better quality something is the more toxic, I use testors putty all the time and dont smell a thing. Tis the way of life, yin and yang, pros and cons, every action equal and opposite reaction.....all that jazz

TheLastPriest wrote:

Bout ten minutes after I got a call from across the room "Honey I dont think you should use that anymore, im getting a headache". Hypochondriac much?

No. She's not. It takes that long for the brain cells to be affected by the Toluene in the putty. This is not a case of being over protective. It's one thing to use it yourself, as I do, and expose yourself, or your wife. It's quite another to expose your baby, who can't tell you they are getting a headache. If it was just you and Pink, I would recommend good ventilation. Since you say you live in a small one bedroom apartment with an infant, I suggest putting the putty away until you can use it safely. There are less toxic methods. Please consider using them.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/HEC/CSEM/toluene/physiologic_effects.html

http://www.inchem.org/documents/icsc/icsc/eics0078.htm 

You can consider me a fear-mongerer if you want, but the risk of Toluene exposure are many and well documented. Put another way, right now Pink is supportive of your hobby. Would you risk changing that?

Ha, I dont know how much I can trust my significant others nose. The other night I tested my new putty on a couple of small sinkholes and she was across the room on the computer, we had both read the warning label. I filled the sinkholes, smoothed it out and then placed the piece in a tupperware container and put it away. Then sealed up the putty put it away. Bout ten minutes after I got a call from across the room "Honey I dont think you should use that anymore, im getting a headache". Hypochondriac much?

Jmart, I am pretty good about not smoking around kids and flammible things, allthough I was cleaning out my AB the other day shooting some thinner through and realized I had a lit cigarette  in my hand. Gonna blow myself up one day if im not carefull. I am looking forward to that box. It sounds all full of goodies I can use.