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Furled sails

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  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Furled sails
Posted by starduster on Saturday, April 18, 2009 12:05 PM
   JTilley, I'm looking for a way to make a few furled sails on my 15th century 1/90th scale Heller Conquistador in a diorama of her in a stormy sea a little more so than the box art depicts, I'd like some sails full out and maybe one torn half off with the ship at a down angle.... at least that's my vision of what I'd like to build, in 15th century rigging was there any similarity in the yards to say 17 or 18th century ships or were they stationary ? and lastly do you still have the photos on making  furled sails using silkspan? I was thinking of using the silkspan with the method you described in a past article only using the vacuum formed sails as molds to form the full wind blown sail with silkspan, I know this sounds like an ambitious project and I have a long way to go but this darn ship just screams to torture me heh,heh. any help would greatly be appreciated. Karl
photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 18, 2009 8:36 PM

Well, here's the FSM Forum thread in which we discussed that method of making furled sails: /forums/350913/ShowPost.aspx .

The photos of my three models aren't on the Drydock Models site any more, but our good Forum friend Michel VRTG was kind enough to post them on his site:  http://www.hmsvictoryscalemodels.be/johntilleygallery.htm .

When it comes to sails for that Heller "Conquistador" kit, we have some problems.  In the first place, the kit is pretty fictitious.  It's based on the hull of the company's Santa Maria, with some new parts - many of them somewhat bizarre - added.  As such, it's tough to figure out just what date it's supposed to represent.

Not a great deal is known for certain about the workings of rigging in the fifteenth century.  The best introduction to the subject is perhaps the relevant volume in the Conway's History of the Ship series, Cogs, Caravels, and Galleons:  The Sailing Ship, 1100-1650.  In that book you can find quite a few contemporary pictures of sails in various configurations, but they aren't going to tell you a great deal.  The general practice seems to have been, in the case of lower yards, to lower the yard as the sail was shortened or furled.  If the sail was completely furled to the yard, the yard would be hanging on its halyard just a few feet above the rail.  The topsails, if any (the topsail was in its early stages of development at that time) apparently were furled tightly to their yards, the halyard was slacked off, and the yard was lashed to the mast - vertically. 

All that, however, is highly generalized guesswork.

I've never tried to make a "set" sail out of silkspan.  As a matter of fact I've never been a fan of "set" sails, except on very large or very small scales.  A real sail is made from lots of pieces of canvas, and that fact is pretty obvious on looking at it.  The seams between the pieces are quite conspicuous - especially if the light is coming from behind them.  (The areas where the pieces overlap show up in silhouette.)  Some parts of the sail are considerably thicker than others (and also show up prominently when lit from behind).  Good modelers (e.g., Donald McNarry) have had quite a bit of success in imitating those effects on scales from 1/16"=1' downward ( http://www.donaldmcnarryshipmodels.com/menu.html ), and on big scales (from 3/16"=1' up, say) it's practical to make the sails from individual, scale-sized pieces of material.  Personally, though, I gave up a long time ago trying to make "set" sails for models on "in-between" scales.

I hate to sound so discouraging, but I have to admit I just wouldn't try this particular project.  But I'll be very interested to see Starduster's results.

Good luck.

 

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Sunday, April 19, 2009 10:53 AM

  Thank you Mr Tilley, your furled sails are a work of art and I hope to have mine look as good as those heh, heh, I can only try, and I thank Michel Vrtg for his posting of the photos,as this will be my first sea diorama but from what I've seen from this tread the posted photos of some models in high seas I'm going to give it a try, yea I knew this particular vessel was a fictitious design but what the heck the box art wooed me in  Evil [}:)]   and I may not get all the logical things right ( as I do model a lot of sci fi stuff ) I will certainly try on this model.

On the sails I have a question: were the sails attached to the yards by using clews or were they attached another way ? and I found several ways to make sails in the book Ship Modeling From Stem to Stern by Milton Roth, I have a little ammunition at hand to hopefully complete this enjoyable project as I have imagineered vehicles for sci fi dios, and you sir are an inspiration to this great hobby with all the help you have provided to us over the years as I'm always looking forward  your answers to the many questions these fine members ask and hopefully learn a little each day, again thank you.  Karl

photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Sunday, April 19, 2009 11:01 AM
One thing to note, in earlier days, ships in a storm ordinarily furled their topsails (as per Prof Tilley above), and would drive under courses, reefed, or otherwise.  The use of topsails in storm conditions didn't really kick in until the 18th century.  I believe sails were generally lashed to yards using gaskets (not lacings), but perhaps someone else can confirm this?
  • Member since
    August 2008
Posted by tankerbuilder on Sunday, April 19, 2009 7:44 PM
  HI STARDUSTER !  What you propose to do can be daunting , but there is a way . The whole trick is to decide how many sails are shown rigged out . Find them in the plastic sails and fill those plastic sails with clay or lite craft plaster  . After you,ve done that ,I need to remind you of one very important thing about sailing ships from that era . They weren,t the best sailors in good weather so canvas would,ve been taken in much sooner than depicted on the box cover . The most out would be a steadying sail for rudder control and a storm trysail or spritsail for the purpose of keeping the ship headed the right way . When your sails are ready lay them on a flat surface CAREFULLY lay scale sized strips over them . These strips can be made from BRAWNY paper towels . Wet them and carefully place them so each section overlaps the edge of the next . 1/32 ". When they are dry spray them with spray sizing or spray starch and wait a couple of days . You can lightly rub the sails used for molds with vaseline so they won,t stick .Believe me, it sounds weird but while they,re wet lightly brush tea or coffee over them to age them !, This idea sounds ridiculous but it works and has worked for me for many years!  good luck - tankerbuilder   P.S. the sails were fastened by brails (rings) to the yards on some ships
  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, April 19, 2009 8:54 PM

Hmm....I think there may be a bit of a vocabulary problem here.  I don't know anything about fifteenth-century Spanish rigging terminology, but the method of fastening a sail to a spar was pretty consistent throughout the sailing ship period.  

In English, a clew of a square sail is simply a lower corner of it; a clewline is a piece of running rigging that hauls the clew up to the yard when the sail is being furled. 

The head of the sail is secured to the yard (or gaff, or whatever) with a series of short lines called (in English) robands.  There generally are two reinforced holes in the head of each individual cloth (the cloths generally being about two feet wide, or a little less); the roband passes through the hole and around the yard (sometimes twice), and has its ends tied together, sometimes with a simple reef knot and sometimes with a knot that R.C. Anderson, in his book The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast, labels "impossible to describe but...easy enough to fit."  The sail is furled (i.e., bundled up to the yard in such a way that the wind doesn't catch it) using a series of somewhat longer lines called gaskets.  The gaskets are more-or-less permanently secured to the yard (or, in later centuries, the jackstay); when the sail is hauled up for furling they're passed around the sail and the yard and tied to themselves.  I don't know how many gaskets there would have been on a given yard in a Spanish ship of the fifteenth century, but in later years the number varied between four and a dozen per yard.

A brail is a piece of running rigging used to haul up the foot of a lateen sail for furling.

Milton Roth's book, I'm sorry to say, is a bit of a sore subject with me; I don't recommend it.  I don't imagine anybody's much interested in why, but here's a review of it that I wrote for the Nautical Research Journal in 1988: 

"With the untimely death of Dr. Milton Roth ship modeling lost one of its most enthusiastic promoters. A retired podiatrist, Dr. Roth came to the hobby late in life but made a noticeable impact on it. He was a well-known, jovial fixture at NRG conferences, and his articles appeared regularly in several commercial magazines. His mail-order supply house, 'The Dromedary,' earned a fine reputation for fast and friendly service. Dr. Roth also acquired his share of critics, who wondered (and sometimes asked none too subtly) how thoroughly he really understood his subjects. This book probably will give his admirers and detractors alike about what they expected.

"In style and content it is a highly individual work. Irrespective of the title, the text deals almost exclusively with sailing ships; powered vessels are mentioned only in passing. The weight given to various topics seems to reflect the author's own interests. We get two paragraphs on the 'lift' method of hull construction and sixteen on techniques for removing CA adhesive from various parts of the human anatomy. Much of the commentary on the problems of product distribution will be of limited interest to most readers. On the other hand, Dr. Roth deserves applause for his forthrightness in describing the defects of imported 'plank-on-bulkhead' kits.

"Those who knew Dr. Roth will find his personality stamped on every page. Other readers will, on numerous occasions, scratch their heads as they attempt to figure out what the author was trying to say. (A representative sentence: 'It will be for you to decide what you have learned as distinct from what you have not already known.') The best parts of the book are the good-humored introductions to the subject's most basic elements. There are some peculiar errors of fact (no reliable evidence suggests that Samuel Pepys ever built a ship model, and the reference to the death of an English king in 1712 is bewildering), but most of the historical information is general enough to be innocuous. The lists of sources for tools and kits will come in handy, and the bibliographical notes, though they have a few holes in them, are reasonably thorough and up to date.

"The weakest chapter is the one entitled 'Size and Scale.' Herein, I fear, the reader will get lost in a jumble of outright misinformation ('1/4 inch = 1 foot' and 'quarter scale' do not mean the same thing), and murky syntax ('the popular scale, 1/4 inch = 1 foot, which we have established as also being equal to four feet of the size in the original object, is expressed in units'). 'To find the decimal equivalent,' we are advised at one point, 'divide 12 by the scale you wish to model.' Six lines later we read: 'To find the decimal equivalent, divide the scale by 12.' At this point I'm not sure what the author intended the term 'decimal equivalent' to mean, but one of those statements has to be wrong. An understanding of scale is basic to any form of scale modeling. Burying it under three pages of verbal and arithmetical confusion does no service for anybody - least of all the novice for whom, presumably, the book was intended.

"The text runs into trouble whenever it gets involved with mathematics. The author apparently wasn't at ease with the concept of percentage; he tended to write '.22 percent' when he meant '22 percent.' The chapter on 'Proportions for Rigging' ends with a table entitled 'Standing Rigging of the 74-gun Ship of the Line, Washington, 1815 (based on tables of USN 1826).' There follows a list of rigging lines, accompanied by a list of numbers. What do the numbers mean? Well, the explanation at the bottom reads: 'Ratio/Proportion of spar Diameter Circumference (In Inches).' Good luck, intrepid beginner.

"Many of the book's problems undoubtedly stem from the sad circumstances under which it was finished. If the author had lived to give the proofs a thorough reading he undoubtedly would have made some major changes. (I don't think he really meant to say, for instance, that 'there is no difference between a scalpel and a saw in their respective cutting abilities as long as they are sharp.') Part of the blame for the book's overall sloppiness must also rest on the shoulders of the publisher. Virtually every page contains grammatical and/or typographical errors. The manuscript needed, and apparently never got, the attentions of a competent editor.

"The book includes about 250 illustrations, the majority of them reprinted from other published sources. The drawings range in quality from the superb (George Campbell's perspective view of H.M.S. Victory's foretop) to the awful. In several cases they do not quite serve their intended purposes. A reprinted drawing captioned 'Buttock Lines in the Sheer Plan' also shows the station lines and waterlines - and provides no hint as to which are which. The captions generally acknowledge the sources properly, though the names of several artists and repositories are garbled. Two old prints are credited to 'The National Maritime Museum, Washington, D.C.' No such institution exists.

"There also are numerous photographs - but, surprisingly, none of Dr. Roth's own models. The quality of reproduction generally is high, the thirteen color plates being excellent. But at least one photo is printed in reverse, and another is upside down.

"The last chapter offers advice to the modeler who wants to turn professional. A rather emotional passage lays out a formula to determine the price of a kit-built model. Much of this discourse is predicated on the emphatic assertions that $3.65 x 50 hours = $175 and 100 x $80 = $800. Should the reader laugh or cry?

"Milt Roth was a first-rate gentleman, and I wish I could recommend his book. His many friends probably will value it as a poignant memorial to a likable, outgoing, and ebullient character. But it is not a sound introduction to ship modeling."

To be fair, Milt Roth had - and continues to have - his admirers.  When I quoted that review in another web forum (Drydock Models), I was surprised at how many people jumped to the book's defense.  (On the other hand, quite a few people in another forum, Modelshipworld, agreed with me.)

My personal opinion is that's it's one of the awfulest books about ship modeling on the market.  But to each his/her own.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: portland oregon area
Posted by starduster on Monday, April 20, 2009 10:51 AM

   Man......  Mr Tilley why weren't you there telling me not to buy that book...Big Smile [:D]     Seriously I did find some of what I read in Milton Roth's book confusing, so I turned to The Rigging Of Ships...in the days of the spritsail topmast 1600-1720, is one of the Manny books I have that you've mentioned in Manny of your posts and found quite a bit of information that I will use,

  Tankerbuilder, Yea daunting is the key word here...I'll just keep trying that's about all I can do, who knows I might be successful   Make a Toast [#toast]   On the sails..I plan one full one and one  being furled, so use the plastic sail as a mold ( I was going to do this but use silkspan spraying this with starch or hair spray ) then fill it with craft plaster, after this drys lightly coat the plaster with Vaseline, then lay wet  Brawny paper towel strips over this overlapping each by 1/32"  and brush on coffee or tea for the weathered look before drying, so basically I'm building a sail...  Shock [:O] .. whew.

  I just might use both of these methods and believe me there will be photos of this project posted here, thank you  for the much needed information, as it most certainly is a big help.

   Karl

photograph what intrests you today.....because tomorrow it may not exist.
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