Sotar History

In an earlier post, some one also quoted Ken Schlotfeldt saying that the Renegade is a better design at a fraction of the cost. Would you ask Ken if he was quoted correctly about the Renegade? (I cannot link the original quote at westcoastaribrush.com which is down now.)

You can see some comparisons of the Sotar and Renegades here.

Don

I've been trying to get my fingers on one for years.   But it's been out of my price range, and I can never find any used ones.  The few that shows up on Ebay or Craigslist generally gets gobbled up pretty quickly.

As I understand it, some of the top professionals use the Renegades for general purpose, then switch to the sotar for finishing touches (detail work).   The Iwata crowds do the same, using the HPC for general purpose and finshing up with a Micron.

I hear that unlike the Renegade needles, the Sotar needle is nearly indestructible.

brickshooter

I've been trying to get my fingers on one for years.   But it's been out of my price range, and I can never find any used ones.  The few that shows up on Ebay or Craigslist generally gets gobbled up pretty quickly.

Check this page out.  I don't know anything about them, but the price is good.

Don

Oh my God. That's great!

Thanks Don.

I'm getting one when I get my tax refund.

BTW, is the seller trustworthy?  

keilau

In an earlier post, some one also quoted Ken Schlotfeldt saying that the Renegade is a better design at a fraction of the cost. Would you ask Ken if he was quoted correctly about the Renegade? (I cannot link the original quote at westcoastaribrush.com which is down now.)

I found the quote that I was thinking about at another site, the airbrushtech web site, comparing Renegade vs. Sotar.

brickshooter

BTW, is the seller trustworthy?  

I have no idea.  I've never dealt with them.  Look at their About Us page.  Apparently they have some sort of deal with Badger.  You could e-mail Badger and ask if they are legit.  Please come back and let us know how it works out.

Don

Don Wheeler

You can see some comparisons of the Sotar and Renegades here.

Don

Don, I read it and am still confused.

As for the paint tip / needle size, on the gravity and side feed, it is “ultra fine” at .21mm. This falls between the Sotar’s fine .19mm and medium .25mm, which is what I have been using.  This produces a linear airflow angle of 6°. The bottom feed is fine at .33mm, which is larger than the Sotar large of .31mm and has a linear airflow angle of 6.5°.  While .5° degrees may not seem like much, in use it is quite a big difference.  While being able to quickly achieve fine lines with the fine tip, the fine tip produced distinctly soft-pencil thick lines.

Which airbrush/nozzle has a 6° flow angle and which 6.5°? What is the significance of a 0.5 degree difference?

Badger seems to be the only manufacturer discuss this "linear airflow angle" term, but they did not define it nor show how it was measured. Any other manufacturer used this term?

keilau

 

 

 

Don, I read it and am still confused.

As for the paint tip / needle size, on the gravity and side feed, it is “ultra fine” at .21mm. This falls between the Sotar’s fine .19mm and medium .25mm, which is what I have been using.  This produces a linear airflow angle of 6°. The bottom feed is fine at .33mm, which is larger than the Sotar large of .31mm and has a linear airflow angle of 6.5°.  While .5° degrees may not seem like much, in use it is quite a big difference.  While being able to quickly achieve fine lines with the fine tip, the fine tip produced distinctly soft-pencil thick lines.

Which airbrush/nozzle has a 6° flow angle and which 6.5°? What is the significance of a 0.5 degree difference?

Badger seems to be the only manufacturer discuss this "linear airflow angle" term, but they did not define it nor show how it was measured. Any other manufacturer used this term?

He says the bottom feed has an angle of 6.5 degrees.  That would be the Rage.  The Spirit and Velocity would be the 6 degree angle.  I have no idea how they determined this or how significant it is.  For the way I paint, it's purely academic.  The author is active on the Hyperscale forum.  If you joined, you could e-mail him and ask.  Or, you could e-mail Badger and ask them.  As for the Rage, if you look at my Renegade Rage page you can see what it can do in my clumsy hand.  The author says soft-pencil thick lines, and I think that's about right.

Don

Freakflex is ADB Inc. and is either owned by Badger or a partner with them. If you hit the "Buy Now" button on the Renegade page at Badger, you end up at ABD. I think you could trust them!

I had asked Ken about Linear Flow Angles a while ago, and this is what he sent me:

The linear air flow angle is the angle from the tip of the needle to where the needle reaches its OD. The finer this angle, the finer the line the airbrush will produce. Many people have been trained to think that the fineness is determined by the paint tip size, when in fact it is more determined by the linear air flow angle as it dictates how material flows off the needle.

I suspect the need for a steeper angle on the Rage is due to the slightly higher air pressure requirements.

Bgrigg

I had asked Ken about Linear Flow Angles a while ago, and this is what he sent me:

 

The linear air flow angle is the angle from the tip of the needle to where the needle reaches its OD. The finer this angle, the finer the line the airbrush will produce. Many people have been trained to think that the fineness is determined by the paint tip size, when in fact it is more determined by the linear air flow angle as it dictates how material flows off the needle.

 

I suspect the need for a steeper angle on the Rage is due to the slightly higher air pressure requirements.

Thanks for sharing that Bill.  I checked the angle on the Rage needle and it does indeed appear to be 6.5 degrees.  In case you're wondering, I used two pieces of paper, a good protractor, and a magnifying glass.

My guess about the reason the Rage angle is bigger is that the tip (nozzle) diameter had to be bigger to handle the siphon feed.  And, the taper had to be changed to keep the same length of needle exposure.  Which is essentially the same reason you gave.

Don

spoken like a true engineer!

I've done some surfing around the Freakflex website and came across this tidbit of information:

ABD, Inc. has a consumer direct service agreement with the manufacturer for this product, for product support, please contact:

In fact if you go to http://www.abdcorp.com/ you'll see four different website addresses: Renegadeairbrushseries.com; thayerandchandlerairbrush.com; modelflexpaint.com; and of course freakflexpaint.com. All are Badger products. My guess is Badger has set this up as a means of selling direct to consumers, without involving Badger directly, and placing an order here, causes the product to be shipped from Badger to the end user.

Bgrigg

spoken like a true engineer!

I've done some surfing around the Freakflex website and came across this tidbit of information:

ABD, Inc. has a consumer direct service agreement with the manufacturer for this product, for product support, please contact:

and goes on to provide the contact information for Badger directly.

In fact if you go to http://www.abdcorp.com/ you'll see four different website addresses: Renegadeairbrushseries.com; thayerandchandlerairbrush.com; modelflexpaint.com; and of course freakflexpaint.com. All are Badger products. My guess is Badger has set this up as a means of selling direct to consumers, without involving Badger directly, and placing an order here, causes the product to be shipped from Badger to the end user.

Bgrigg

spoken like a true engineer!

I've done some surfing around the Freakflex website and came across this tidbit of information:

ABD, Inc. has a consumer direct service agreement with the manufacturer for this product, for product support, please contact:

and goes on to provide the contact information for Badger directly.

In fact if you go to http://www.abdcorp.com/ you'll see four different website addresses: Renegadeairbrushseries.com; thayerandchandlerairbrush.com; modelflexpaint.com; and of course freakflexpaint.com. All are Badger products. My guess is Badger has set this up as a means of selling direct to consumers, without involving Badger directly, and placing an order here, causes the product to be shipped from Badger to the end user.

BGrigg

With all due respect   I think it's about time you show them forum one of your AB paint jobs.

car  plane camo whathaveyou . But come on  walk the walk dude let's see what you can do with youuur 20 yrs. exp.

Again with respest and if you choose to not show a pic of your work ikinda understand.

Thanks Dr

Faust,

Number one. I don't have 20 years experience. Never stated I did.

Number two. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.

Number three. You picking a fight? What for? Nothing better to do?

Bgrigg

Faust,

Number one. I don't have 20 years experience. Never stated I did.

Number two. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.

Number three. You picking a fight? What for? Nothing better to do?

nope  show the forum what ya got.  walk the walk

Bgrigg

Funny how this is your final retort. oh well  you the man!

Dr. Faust

 

With all due respect   I think it's about time you show them forum one of your AB paint jobs.

car  plane camo whathaveyou . But come on  walk the walk dude let's see what you can do with youuur 20 yrs. exp.

Again with respest and if you choose to not show a pic of your work ikinda understand.

Thanks Dr

I guess I don't get it.  We're discussing Sotars, and out of the blue you want Bgrigg to show his paint jobs.  Why?  If you've got a problem with Bill you could start a new thread or even a one to one conversation.   I don't see where Bill's skill with an airbrush makes any difference anyway.  If you want to see how bad I am you can see samples on my website.

Don

Don,

Faust has an issue with me, and always has for some reason. I spent some time last night going through his post history, and it's apparent, at least to me. Funny how he expects me to display my work, and doesn't himself. All I can gather from this is that people shouldn't drink and drive on the internet.

Bill

Don Wheeler

I checked the angle on the Rage needle and it does indeed appear to be 6.5 degrees.  In case you're wondering, I used two pieces of paper, a good protractor, and a magnifying glass.

My guess about the reason the Rage angle is bigger is that the tip (nozzle) diameter had to be bigger to handle the siphon feed.  And, the taper had to be changed to keep the same length of needle exposure. .

Don

I took out the airbrushes that I have and made some measurement of the needles. The result are shown below:

I derived the needle angles using the arctangent of the OD/Taper ratio. So it should be fairly accurate. It seems to me that everyone agreed that the needle angle or taper length is important. The angles do correlate well with the use of the airbrushes.

A large needle angle allows easier painting of large area and is more tolerant of paint thickness. A small needle angle gives finer trigger control and makes painting fine line easier.

*The Badger nozzle size is quoted from Don Wheeler's web site. The other nozzle sizes are manufacturer specifications. I did not measure them.

It would be very nice if the Sotar 2020 measurement is added here.

The numbers here are measured from airbrush parts and should have little room for arguing. If you doubt the value shown here of your favorite airbrush, measure yours and post the numbers.

Keilau,

Excellent work on providing those statistics. I hope I can use them for the airbrush guide I am working (slowly) on.

From the documentation Ken Schlotfeldt provided on tip sizes and air flow angles, the Renegade family and Sotar 20/20 tip angles range from 5° to 6.5°. Given that we already know the Rage is 6.5°, and the Velocity and Spirit are 6°, I think it is reasonable to conclude that the given tip angle for the Sotar is 5°.

Ken provided tip sizes and air flow angle ranges for the following:

Renegade (Velocity, Spirit, Rage, Sotar 20/20) .18mm to .33mm/5° to 6.5°

PRO series (105, 155, 175, 200NH & 360) .25mm to .45mm/6.8° to 8.5°.

Legend Series (100, 150, 200-20) .21mm to .45mm/6.5° to 8°

Vega (1000, 2000, 600, Nailaire) .3mm to .5mm/6.5° to 8.5°

Omni (3000, 4000m 5000, 6000, Nailairs) .25mm/6°

Unfortunately, he did not break down specific tip size to air flow angle, or confirm the medium needle sizes, but we could extrapolate from previously given numbers.

Dr. Faust

 

Bgrigg:

 

Faust,

Number one. I don't have 20 years experience. Never stated I did.

Number two. I don't have to do anything I don't want to do.

Number three. You picking a fight? What for? Nothing better to do?

 

 

nope  show the forum what ya got.  walk the walk

I have about that much experience. How come you don't call me out?

To the original question, yes I have a Sotar and like it very much. It is very precise, well balanced and can do anything any Micron can do for 1/4 the price.

I have not yet done a comparison to my Renegade but will sometime.

Bgrigg

Don,

Faust has an issue with me, and always has for some reason. I spent some time last night going through his post history, and it's apparent, at least to me. Funny how he expects me to display my work, and doesn't himself. All I can gather from this is that people shouldn't drink and drive on the internet.

Bill

Well Bill he does live in So Cal so maybe he has hung around Coast Airbrush some and thinks he is now one of the pros that goes there like Noah, Craig Fraser or one of the others.

Bgrigg

From the documentation Ken Schlotfeldt provided on tip sizes and air flow angles, .........Ken provided tip sizes and air flow angle ranges for the following:

PRO series (105, 155, 175, 200NH & 360) .25mm to .45mm/6.8° to 8.5°.

Unfortunately, he did not break down specific tip size to air flow angle, or confirm the medium needle sizes, but we could extrapolate from previously given numbers.

I have only one Badger airbrush. The needle is the finest #51-81DT for the Pro-series. The tip angle I measured, 9.8°, is well larger than the top of the range that Badger published. The same applied to the nozzle size that Don Wheeler meassured for the fine needle. Don Wheeler's "3155 hybrid" web page It would be nice if Ken Schlotfeldt would come here to explain his measurement methodology once.

It is very straight forward to get the measurements I did. I got a Cen-Tech digital caliper for $10 from Harbor Freight. It has a stainless steel frame and 3 decimal places reading. (Don't get the cheaper, 2 decimal one.) A magnifying glass is very useful to determine where the OD section begins. I used actual physical measurement only and no other adjustment to the numbers. It should be good for comparison purpose among those airbrushes that I measured.

It would be very good if someone else can add the Badger 100LG, Sotar, Iwata High Performance, Micron and the Paasche Talon.

Bgrigg

From the documentation Ken Schlotfeldt provided on tip sizes and air flow angles

Renegade (Velocity, Spirit, Rage, Sotar 20/20) .18mm to .33mm/5° to 6.5°

Don Wheeler

You can see some comparisons of the Sotar and Renegades here.

As for the paint tip / needle size, on the gravity and side feed, it is “ultra fine” at .21mm. This falls between the Sotar’s fine .19mm and medium .25mm, which is what I have been using.  This produces a linear airflow angle of 6°. The bottom feed is fine at .33mm, which is larger than the Sotar large of .31mm and has a linear airflow angle of 6.5°. 

It will be good to know from Badger which one of the Renegade airbrush/needle is the one with a 0.18 mm nozzle and 5° needle flow angle. The quote from the Renegade review on "Gravity Feed R1-V Velocity – Ultra-Fine Nozzle" by Steven "Modeldad" Eisenman is cited by me. The review seemed to have missed that finest nozzle.

I think there was a misunderstanding.

The Renegades do not use the .18mm. 

SOTAR -

.19mm superfine, .25mm fine or .31mm large.  But the 5 degrees is only an estimate.

RENEGADES -

.21mm superfine @ 6 degrees, or 

.33mm fine @ 6.5 degrees.

Source -

http://www.hyperscale.com/2009/reviews/tools/badgerrenegadereviewse_1.html

keilau

I derived the needle angles using the arctangent of the OD/Taper ratio. So it should be fairly accurate. It seems to me that everyone agreed that the needle angle or taper length is important. The angles do correlate well with the use of the airbrushes.

 

Keilau,

When you did the arctangent measurement of the Patriot needle, did you consider the small secondary taper on the end?  If not for this shortening, the needle would extend about another 0.050".  I did a direct measurement of angle on the main taper and came up with 8 degrees.  By the way, if you watch the tour video on the Badger website, you will see a large optical comparator which can measure angles very accurately.

Don

Brickshooter,

Correct, the 5° is for the Sotar's .18mm needle. The sizes I quoted are directly from Ken at Badger and I have no reason to doubt the veracity, and can only assume that the .19mm size quoted on the Hyperscale review is an editorial error. I have attempted to get clarification from Ken on what size equals what angles, but so far that has not been forthcoming. I'm sure it will in time.