UH-1Cs : 121 & 176 AHC info needed

I would go with what the historical photos show.

I worked with the Muskets several times in 70/71. Basically, the later "C" models used the M-21 system (mini guns & 7 shot pods), The M-5 (40mm) system, or two 19 shot rocket pods with only M-60 door guns (hog configuration). All carried door guns. The M-3 system had been phased out by 1970, I never saw one on a "C" model. I should also mention that the actual markings on their ships, as well as those in my company, varied almost from day to day. they weren't necessarly "standard", although they almost always included the stripes on the tail boom as those were a unit marking mandated by the Battalion HQ. At the time, these aircraft were NOT actually designated "M" model even if they had the T-53 L-13 engine. That change was made later. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

Gene Kennedy 
Gunrunner 31  70/71 

By the way, also like my old company, the 176th has a web site. The M-3 system you mentioned is shown in a photo at the following URL:

http://176thahc.org/mjohnson_533.html

You might note that it is noted as the last M-3 system left in service at the time. Also note that if you look at the photos on their site, some aircraft have the number 176 on the pilots doors and some don't. As I said, there was no "standard" markings for most of our units in Viet Nam.

 First off, Mr Kennedy, thanks for your service, sir.  It's always great to have vets in the forum.  John, here's you a pic of 618 showing the M-21 gun system mentioned by Mr. Kennedy above.   She has the M-158 seven shot rocket pods in this photos.  You can also see that she has wind baffles at the back of the B-pillar and no cabin doors.  This photo is from the 176th Website.  HTH

 Thanks for your comments Ray. If you just need general photos of the different weapons systems I have several on my units web site at:  http://238awc.org  We flew "B" models, "C" models, and finally Cobras during the years the unit was in Nam.

Gene Kennedy
Gunrunner 31  70/71

Thanks Gene for the links you posted and along with Ray , I agree that it's always great when veterens are on the forum pages .

Thank's also Ray for the great reference pic of the Muskets charlie model huey .

Another Microscale 1/72 Huey decal sheet I won off ebay arrived today ...

A couple of early UH-1H's , Army Ambulance and the "Flying Dragons" with the tail rotors positioned on the left side of tail fin . Along with a USAF HH-1H Rescue Huey . I've always wanted to do one of those USAF Hueys , so now I have the opportunity .

I'll make a start on the two 'C' model Huey's followed by the three above .

Thank's again for all the help .

                       John

GeneK

 Thanks for your comments Ray. If you just need general photos of the different weapons systems I have several on my units web site at:  http://238awc.org  We flew "B" models, "C" models, and finally Cobras during the years the unit was in Nam.

Gene Kennedy
Gunrunner 31  70/71

John,

  Glad I could help.  I'm sure your newest Hueys will look great and be done in record time.

Mr. Kennedy,

    My father was a door gunner  with the 190th AHC 68-69.  Since you served in the 238 AWC, I have a question you may be able to answer.  In the photo below from Larry Smith on your website, you can see the mount for the M60A in the door.  Was this mount an in country mod?  It resembles the older Sagami mounting system, but is clearly different from it.  Why did you guys put a brass bag on a M-60A?  I know this pic shows the left side and I have seen plenty of photos showing D/H models with Brass bags on the left to prevent FOD but few had them on the right side.  Do you know if this was SOP for your gunships as well?  Basically, I'd love to know anything you can tell me about the 238 door gunner setup.  It is so different from any other VN unit I've seen.  By the way, THIS thread and THIS thread might be of interest to you.  LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of Huey info and pics.  We weren't always right but one of you guys usually came along and set us straight.  I think you might enjoy them.  You'll see we love Hueys here!

    Ray

http://238awc.org/picts/larry/GR0031.jpg

I found this pic of the USAF HH-1H while searching the net ...

I have some of those Whirlybits USAF UH-1H roof mounted winch and radome's to use ;

I'll also replace italeri's incorrect cabin doors with a set from my Revell UH-1D spare parts Huey's ;

That's two UH-1C and a HH-1H builds ready to roll ....

                     John .

Ray

  The brass bags didn't last long. The photo your looking at was taken not long after the unit arrived in Nam. By the time I got there in 70, no one used those bags. I had hot brass go down the back of my shirt while flying, but those bags were just too damn small! Also note that the aircraft in the picture is a "B" model not a "C" model. 

  The mounts for the door guns, as I understand it, were made at Ft Riley before the unit went to Nam. Yes they were locally fabricated, and I have no idea who designed them. Free handing an M-60 was very very dangerous, and by 1970 most units no longer did that. Our mount had a pin in the mount so that the gun wouldn't turn inboard of directly forward or backward so they can't shoot their own aircraft. It's the only one I remember that used the single bar at  a 45 degree angle as the support. It could swing out for easy loading, but locked in place in flight. They were really quite well made, and worked great! 

I'm making good progress on the first two 1/72 scale Charlie model Huey's and these SuperScale UH-1B decals arrived this morning ...

There's three UH-1B's and a USMC UH-1E ;

I did some preliminary airbrushing on the interior parts of three Hobby Boss UH-1B's ;

I had a bit of a search on the net for info on the UH-1E , to see if it was an early "Echo" based on the B model or the later C model Hueys . The decal instruction seems to show an early UH-1E , however I came across this site , www.helis.com/database/modelorg/852/  and I was checking the BuNo on the decal sheet UH-1E 155251 and the database has it listed as being built on the UH-1C Lycoming engine ...

So I'm not quite sure which version to build for a UH-1E to match the decals ; I have rotor crafts resin roof and winch for the "Echo" version and another set of 540 rotors , I just need to find out which engine cowl , stabilizers and tail fin to use ;

John .

Well silly me , those SuperScale decals are 1/48 not 1/72 scale I'm building in .

I'll save them for the Revell 1/48 Huey kits in my stash .

So instead I'll use the Max Decals for a couple of Antartic UH-1B's ;

And the third Hobby Boss UH-1B I'll use some decals from Pageley for a Royal Australian Navy "RAN" ;

UH-1B Huey ;

I scrounged around the spares box and found some non armored seats from Revell's UH-1D , so 'll use those in the Hobby Boss UH-1B's and take the armored seats and use those in the UH-1D/H builds . I also found an Auxillary Fuel tank for the RAN Huey and I'll try and scratch up a roof hoist and radome .

I'm not sure what markings I can cobble together for the UH-1E ; The tail squadron markings on the SuperScale sheet look similar to what's in Academy's 1/72 OV-10A Bronco . Perhaps I could use some from the OV-10A Bronco kit , it's even from the same unit ... HML-267 !

                      John .

 Don’t let the Marine Corps fool you J They bought the UH-1E in two lots, the first were based on the “B” model, and the second based on the “C” model. In both cases, they had typical Marine/Navy equipment like the rotor brake, but both were made of a normal aluminum alloy not the magnesium alloy used for the Army versions. The magnesium alloy corroded far too fast in a salt water environment. Both lots used the “E” model designation, so you need to go by the tail number to determine which one it was. Some of them were built with a TAT-101 turret under the nose. Another guy on the forum is working on that model, his comments are in this thread /forums/t/140692.aspx

  The builds are looking nice!

Gene

I found this pic on the net of a UH-1E with similar markings as to whats on the 1/48 SuperScale sheet ;

I can't see the fuel filler cap on the right side , so I'm guessing it's a Charlie model along with the wider tail fin and screened particle seperator .

I scrounged together these decals to use on my UH-1E build ...

                         John .

 Looks like you've got things going your way. The AC in the photo is the "C" model based version for certain. Actually, we had "B" models with the filter intake so that's not the best indicator, but the fuel filler and the pitot tube on the roof are both definitely the Charlie model type. I don't know why the marines Insisted on the glossy paint, but they did until they got the J model Cobras. I'll be looking for the finished model pictures! 

Gene

UH-1M 65-09533 did in fact carry the M3 subsystem in the fall of 1971.  I do not recall having heard the ‘M’ designator being used to describe up-engined ‘Charlie Models’ during this time as previously stated.  However, the Gun Platoon ‘Muskets’ were very proud of having what was believed to be the last operational M3 subsystem in Vietnam.

 Story behind the picture is: 618 and 533 made up a fire team with 618 being the lead aircraft.  Late one afternoon in the fall of 71 the fire team returned from a mission and was placed on stand-by for an immediate follow-on mission.  Bothe aircraft were rearmed and refueled with the anticipation of an immediate launch.  This did not happen as expected and the aircraft were put to bed heavy.  That is to say that by the time the launch order cam the following morning the density altitude has risen so much that the aircraft were too heavy to fly.  Both aircraft were ‘hopped’ out the active runway and spent close to half an hour burning off fuel prior to being able to launch. 618 was photographed as she reached transitional lift for her first mission of the day.

628 was named ’1%’ carried the M21 subsystem, pilots doors were removed

533 was named ‘Pride of the Muskets’ (name not painted on the A/C) carried the M3 subsystem as previously stated and the pilots doors were not removed.

 Good luck with your project and please post photos of the results.

 Regards,

 Michael Campbell

Hello Michael ;

Thank you kindly Sir , for the additional info on the UH-1C Muskets Huey

I Carefully cut open the pilots doors last night on my 1/72 build and it worked out nicely .

 I have a couple more questions , one is regarding the 1/48 superscale decal sheet I posted earlier and the two UH-1B Huey's , 114th AHC and the 1st Air Cav . Div... "Have Gun Will Travel'

I went looking on the net for info on both Bravo Huey's , especially the 1st Air Cav Huey , trying to find what weapons were used on each but I haven't found anything as yet .

I have a partially built Monogram 1/48 UH-1B and I have some narrow rotor blades and a bell mouth intake to use , so I was hoping someone might know which weapons systems was on each or either Huey ?

Secondly , this question has probably come up before but I was wondering what color is the Armored seats in the UH-1C , not so much the cushions but the armor panels themselves .

TIA ,

                       John .

 The armor panels were a light grey color and the edges were very dark grey, almost black when new but they faded with age. The outside panel on the plots seat was a sliding panel often it was pushed forward by the crewman in back using his foot. Older ones didn't slide so easily :-) as far as I know the same armor was used by all services. I know I saw it in Air Force and VNAF Huey's. 

With regards to the weapons system used on “Have Gun Will Travel,” it is my opinion that it would have been the M16 subsystem which consist of twin ‘flex 60s’ as opposed to a mini gun on each side of the aircraft as well as the 7 shot rocket pods.  A Google search of the 1^st CAV’s arrival in SEA as well as the 2/20 ARA may provide a more definitive answer to your question.

Armored Seats:  I have no firsthand experience with ‘B’ models in Southeast Asia.  The few post SEA ‘B’s’ that I saw had unarmored grey seats with red cushions.  All of the armored seats that I ever saw in SEA were OD with OD nylon seats and backs.  Both the seat bottoms and backs were stretched over a tabular frame.  The nylon had a slight sheen to it.  Both seats had a sliding / adjustable armor plate that provided extra protection for the pilot.  The armor on these seats was quite effective up to and including impacts from 7.62 rounds.

Michael A.

  Here's two pictures showing the armor in a "B" model. The problem is that the colors don't show up too well. In the second photo, note the area that's in direct sunlight. It looks almost OD but it's actually a much lighter color. There's also the fact that these were getting a bit old and worn (dirty) as well. Hope this helps. The pictures are from 68/69 when my unit first got to Nam with their "B" models.

 And this one shows the armor in a Cobra. Even lighter color, more like the grey I remember, but then I flew Cobras as well as "B" and "C" models.

"Have Gun Will Travel" according to the decal sheet above was UH-1B 64-14040.  She served with 2/20th ARA C battery (That's what the red circle on the door signifies) from October of 66 to December of 67.  More info on her HERE.  Just like my dad's bird, she went on to serve as a Seawolf in HAL-3 in 69 and 70.   The M21 gun system first appeared in Vietnam in 1966 as an experimental setup with the 173rd AHC.   So I'd say it is theoretically possible 14040 could have carried the M21 system while with the unit but the M16 system with the quad M60C's and M157 or M158 7 shot rocket launchers was probably more likely.

Regarding the seats, I have done quite a bit of research on them and while I wasn't there I can tell you that many if not most armored seats in country were OD green with black trim.  There were certainly gray ones as well.  Here are some pics that will show what I mean.  First batch are from Mike models that I have taken.  Second set are in country photos like those posted by Gene above.  Third set is at the Ozark Huey II facility where each seat gets rebuilt and re installed.   As a side note, all UH-1H seats were painted black sometime in the 80's when Hueys got NVG compatible cockpits.

  Ray

Pics by me of Museum aircraft (Note that the red handle is held in place by a cotter pin.  when removed the red lever can be flipped down to allow the seat to tilt backwards aiding in removing an injured pilot or co-pilot:

The seat above is missing the armored panel on the inside.

Here are some Vietnam pics that show OD seats:

Bob Coveney 190th AHC:

Crewman with last name Alexander of the 129th AHC

Wrecked Huey:

John Logan 190th AHC:

Not sure of the unit in this one:

Here's a set from Robert Brackenhoff of a 174th AHC seat that might be gray.  Honestly, i can't tell for sure.

Finally, here are some shots of the refurbed seats that will go into new Huey II's.  All recent armored seats are black.

  It's interesting to note that the Gold Book entry you gave the link to shows in the last entry that 040 was armed with M-3 rocket pods, not M-21 or M-16 system. The 2/20th, being an ARA unit, was one that used those pods a lot.
  I guess I'm just sort of a purist, but the lighter almost tan color shown in most of the "in country" photos on the seats, isn't really "OD green" to me. OD was much darker in color. Just as we didn't really call our nomex flight suits OD since they were also light colored. In any case, the photos should give you some good ideas to work from. Some of our "B" models also went to the Sea Wolves.

Gene Kennedy
Gunrunner 31  70/71

Gene,

  You were there so if you don't consider it OD, that' fine by me.  Personally, I'd love to see someone show me what "OD" is.  It would seem that any can of green paint owned by the US Army during Vietnam was "OD"

Good catch on the M-3 mention in the Gold Book data.  I totally overlooked that. Here's some 2/20th ARA pics from 1965.  At least one of these birds was used in the Battle of Ia Drang.  You can see the M3 24 shot FFAR pods as well as he modified Maxwell system with 12 FFAR's and 1 M11 rocket.  You can also see a light ship used for night time base perimeter security. 

Finally, I'll leave you with this photo from the USAAM archives taken by a soldier named Reese with the 118th AHC.  Which of these birds is OD?  The US Army would say both!

.

  After much consideration, I've decided that the true color of OD green must still be classified information since no one seems to have the answer! Your right that there were so many colors call OD that it became almost crazy, but I always thought there should at least be some green tint to it.
  Those are some great pictures of the early Cav unit aircraft and even they show variations in the color of the paint. I always suspected that when OD faded it lost the green and became more tan. I love the Mojave sling loading a Huey in the last pict. That must have been a real adventure!

Gene

Gene,

  Good eye!  These pics are from mid 1965 and the 118th had high vis and low vis birds in the same platoon and as you mentioned, the CH-37's were still flying.  The 118th still used UH-1B's as slicks during this time as well as you acn see from the photo.  I agree about OD.  It SHOULD have green in it, but the old gloss OD seems to have been more of a brownish blue than green.  I think if you are looking to get the color of the armored seats, using the "faded olive drab" in the Model Master line will get you pretty close.  Hee's a few more pics from the 118th set.

     Ray

Here you can see the UH-1B slicks as well as a gloss high vis bird in the background:

Here's a Bandit gunship with the M16 system and a dark OD paint job:

Finally, here's a photo of a high vis tail boom showing a gloss OD paint job:

Gentlemen ; Thank you kindly with all the assistance you have provided regarding the armored seats and all those reference pic's as well Ray .

With everything you guy's have posted , I have decided to add a little scratch built detail to both 1/72 UH-1C builds ;

I sanded away the molded on curtain on the cabin rear wall piece and rescribed the diamond patten , I then filed down the bottom of some armored seats from the Hobby Boss kit to use in the Italeri UH-1C builds and added the seat frames from the Revell UH-1D donor kits I have . I also have cut some plastic sheet to fill in the underside of the cockpit/cabin roof piece and I'll scribe a similar diamond patten like the cabin rear wall . It's a little more work than I originally had planned for both builds but with all the great info and pictures you guy's have posted and seeing that I was lucky to win these UH-1C decals off ebay , I decided to add some extra detail .

I don't want to get too far ahead of myself with other Huey builds but I won some more 1/72 UH-1D and UH-1H decals off ebay and they arrived yesterday ...

I do have one question regarding the UH-1D/H Huey's , I know that when the UH-1H was updated with those ASE sets that the bulge on the underside of the Huey was removed and the oil cooler heat shield was used . Did this only happen when the aircraft was ASE updated  , sometimes it's hard to tell from photos on the net wether the bulge is still there on some UH-1D and H models as with the ones on the decal sheet above ?

Anyway , thank's again with all the help ; I'll post a couple more pic's of my UH-1C progress shortly .

                        John .

 I'm not sure what "bulge" your referring to. Could you be more specific?

Something that always sticks in my craw is the calling for Red horizontal stabilizers. Every image I have gleaned from the 174th to the 170th and on show FS Safety Orange stabilizers. Why all these decal sheets call for insignia red I have no idea but it's not correct. The CEs I have talked also have told me that FS Safety Orange was used. Just like the OD debate given the coating, time in service, position of the sun in a photograph, contrast can all affect how bright or dull they appear.

Im off my soapbox.

Out.

During '67-68 with the 1st Cav in I and II corps areas, I can testify that the vast majority (90%+)of the Cav Hueys I saw had the low viz paint job, and tended toward the brown side of the "spectrum", while the very rare gloss high viz ships were greener (think I only  saw one or two, usually VIP transports). 

I dont have the color chips uploaded though they are on my system. Just google the numbers and look at the images. It will pull all the Federal Standard colors and hobby colors.

FS 34031 gloss works on the early ships with high-vis markings

FS 34087 is  what most people use and what's most common for the low-vis ships. What's decent is you get that little color differential if you throw some FS 34086 in there.

Seawolves color I've always used is  FS 24087.

Here is what I'm talking about. This Mike model is 15 minutes from where I work. Same ship different times of day under clear or partly skies. What color is it?