UH-1C Main Rotor Head Details Additional Pics

Added this photo I have to help

John,

I believe that is a picture of 65-09430 at the PIMA Musuem.  Did you know that was one of the 174th's original Shark gunships?  You can find it listed in our Unit "Tail Number List" on the Web page.  Also shown here.   www.174ahc.org/174display.htm.

  Mel, great idea posting the correction guide!

I also would like to add couple of pics from my expirience with Academy kit. All corrections I made according to info I received from Mel about 6-7 months ago.

Thank you, Mel

 Andy

Andy,

No sweat buddy!  Great job you did on your UH-1C!  Benchmark for all the rest of us.  I see you are at it again with the Chinook!  Unbelievable work! 

Melgyver wrote:

John, I believe that is a picture of 65-09430 at the PIMA Musuem.  Did you know that was one of the 174th's original Shark gunships?  You can find it listed in our Unit "Tail Number List" on the Web page.  Also shown here.   www.174ahc.org/174display.htm.

Here it is again Mel, you got it from me when I posted it after my trip there.

Those are great pics. Here are the ones I took of 65-09430's rotor in 2005.  I have basically a complete walk around of this ship and the D/H model beside it if anyone is interested.  Enjoy and I hope they are useful to someone.

   Ray
 

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Thought I'd throw in a photo of one one the gun mounts for those interested

John,

Good shot of the basic mount for the rocket pods and mini-guns.  Here are a few of the "belly" I shot of "presumably" a UH-1E hanging from the ceiling at the Pensacola Naval Air Musuem. 

Right rocket pod electrical connection.

Right mini-gun electrical and two hydralic line connections.

Left rocket pod electrical connection.

Left mini-gun electrical and two hydraulic line connetions

  Mel,

   That may be a Echo Model in your pics, but, as far as I know, the Marines used the TK-2 mounting system.  Here is a photo from Aviation Enthusiast Corner which shows what I believe is the same bird.  The site claims it is a HH-1K serial number 157188, but there are other mistakes there so this may be one as well.  However, the seriel number jives with another ref I have listing serial numbers for the individual variants.  I also see NAVY on the tail boom and what looks to be a Seawolves emblem on the nose.  This bird looks more ready for SEARCH and DESTROY than SEARCH and RESCUE, though!  Also, my resources indicate that 3 HH-1K's were sent to Vietnam to serve with the Seawolves.  If it is HH-1K then it is basically just a modified Echo as per your info.

      Ray
 

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Well since we are digressing from the topic, here sre some more shots of UH-1C 65-09430 from Pima Air and Space Museum.

Here's the M-156 universal mount from the side

and from a 3\4 rear view

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Here is the skid step on the left side

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Here are some shots of the tail

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How about a closeup of the filler cap on the left side

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Ray,

The type of mounting system may have been different with the Marine and Navy birds but the connection points for the armament systems would have been the same.  That's the reason I posted the pictures.  I haven't found any good pictures of these in any books so far.  Especially since the right and left electical connection points were not in the same location for the rocket pods. 

Mel,

  As far as I know only Marine birds had the TK-2 (Temporary Kit 2) mounting system, but it was very different from the M-156 mount (see below).  The connections may very well have been the same.  I'll take your word for it since you actually flew on the aircraft.  HAL-3 used Army Hueys (B's and C's for gunships) and also used the standard M-156 mouning system.  The exception being the three HH-1K's mentioned above.  My sources indicate that the TK-2 system allowed the Marines to use Air Force rocket pods.  At any rate, the only way I know to tell Echos from Bravos or Charlies externally is the rescue hoist housing on the starboard roof and none of our pics show the roof of the bird in question.  It's all semantics, anyway, since the model isn't relevent to the purpose of your pics (nice closeups, by the way).  I just thought you might like to know about the aircraft.

     Ray
 

Here's the TK-2 mounting system:

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Ray,

Thanks for the excellent picture of the TK-2 mount.  I had never noticed the M-60's mounted inboard on them before.  Would be a great scratch build for the Marine and Navy birds.  I'm fairly certain all the "models" except the D and H had the same electrical and hydaulic attachment points.  I'll ask Ed in an E-mail since he hasn't commented on this thread yet.  He has access to all the manuals I believe.

Mel,

  Glad you like the pic.  As I said the Navy HAL-3 ships used the Army M-156 mounts.

I 'm not sure if you can tell this HAL-3 bird has the M-156 mount, but you can clearly see the standard Army arrangement of guns outboard and rockets inboard.  Note by the way that this is a B model with a C model tail repacement.

   Ray
 

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Ray/Mel:

 My records show 154777 thru 154780, 154943 thru 154944, 154945 thru 154969, 155337 thru 155354, and 157851 thru 157858 as being UH-1E/UH-1L. I don't know if anyone knows exaclty what a UH-1E/UH-1L is. Probably the same cabins with Navy or Marine peculiar items for either E or L depending on what it went down the line as. My guess is they are real close to being same. Something as simple as instrument lighting color or some decals could make it an E or a L.

TH-1L serial numbers this is Navy trainer. 157806 thru 157850

HH-1K serial numbers 157177 thru 157203, . I was at NAS Whiting Field in 1973 and there were some TH-1L's and I think some HH-1K's there. Try looking up HT5. It has been so long ago I am not sure of the unit number. HT-8 was the TH-57 primary helo trainer unit.

Many of the pictures never downloaded on this thread so I can't see what you are talking about completely.

Mel, I only have Army TM's not Navy or Marine going back that far. Try doing a search using NA01-H1, thats NA zero one,dash H one. and see what you come up with. Those old manuals are not in the current Navy manual inventory. Maybe somebody has put then on pdf format.

Ed

Hello Ed,

The UH-1E was a "Navalized" UH-1C.  That is with aluminum structure instead of magnesium for shipboard use, and of course different radios.  The biggest engine in this model was the Dash 11.  The E was always my preference due to fairly good gas milage. 

The UH-1L and TH-1L are nearly identical.  Same as the E except for the Dash 13 engine.  The TH-1L was minus any armament gear and had dual IFR panels.  The hard points were still there.  All the surviving UH-1Ls and the less banged up UH-1Es migrated to NAS Whiting Field to HT-18 the advanced helo trainning squadron.  Once they made thier first trips to rework (and repaint) it was hard to tell them from the TH-1Ls.  At one time HT-18 had 74 UH-TH-1Ls assigned.  Big operation!

I had always thought the HH-1Ks were just reworked TH-UH-1Ls.  If not, then it would be easy enough to just rework them as the Engine and Hoist were the same.

Regards

Steve

Steve,

  Did you fly Echos's?  The E model was built after both the B and C model Hueys (depending on the production date) with the differences you noted above.  Mutza's Huey Gunship's Walkaround shows both versions of the Echo.  Also, are you aware of any Navy units that used the Echo in Vietnam?  As far as I know, the Echo was exclusively a Marine bird, although variants of it (UH-1L, TH-1L, and HH-1K were used by the Navy).  By the end of 1970, HAL-3 had 27 UH-1B's, 2 UH-1C's, 4 UH-1L's and 2 HH-1K's (the third HH-1K delivered to HAL-3  ditched in the Gulf of Thailand on 26th of November soon after delivery) (source:Vietnam Choppers, Simon Dunston, pp. 160-161). 

  I have 4 sources (Vietnam Choppers-Simon Dunston, Bell UH-1 Super Profile-Christpher Chant, Uh-1 Huey In Action- Wayne Mutza, and Huey-Lou Drendel) that all agree that the HH-1K was originally built as a SAR aircraft and was identical to the later UH-1E's, with the 540 rotor system, except for T53-L13 engine and improved avionics.  Three of the four sources confirm that 27 examples of the HH-1K were built.  Two sources also mention that three aircraft were sent to HAL-3 in 1970.

  Incidentally, three of the above sources agree that only 8 Uh-1L's were built, but they disagree on the number of TH-1L's.  Mutza and Drendel say 45 were built, but Chant says 90 were built.  Based on your numbers, I have to assume that Chant is correct. I'm always looking for more info, so feel free to correct or add to this data.

   Thanks,

         Ray
 

Hey Ray,

Yes, I flew the E operationally and the UH-1L/Th-1L and E as an instructor in HT-18. 

There may be semanics here, but the Marines got a load of UH-1B's (20) from the Army in 1966 and 67 to fill a shortfall of ordered UH-1E's.  The B was marginal for the marines due to no rotorbreak which is needed for shipboard use (I forgot to mention the rotorbreak in my above comments).  The loaners were mostly used in the states for training but some got to VN.  Thats why you'll see some of those counterwieghts on Marine birds.  They may be painted Marine green but they were your standard B underneigth.  All the surviving B's were eventually returned to the Army.

From my understanding very few UH-1L's were produced and all went to the HAL squadrons who needed the bigger engine.  There were a few airframe casualties in VN but all the rest went back to the training command to soldier on.  My "numbers" include UH-1Es, UH-1Ls and TH-1Ls.  I know of no HH-1Ks there, but then a K is nothing but an L.  That was a time that the Marines were moving to the UH-1N so they were getting rid of the E.  There was no lack of airframes for HT-18.

The Marines had several HH-1Ks as SAR birds also, but again if you need a K and only T/UH-1Ls are available..voila, you have an HH-1K.  I could be wrong about the K if it included special Electical components for MEDEVAC equipment.

Regards

Steve

Andy,

Thanks for showing us your UH-1C Academy Rotorhead.  I for one have saved them for when i finally break my Academy kit out.  That rotorhead of thiers has always turned me off to the kit.  You did a bangup job on it.

Regards

Steve

I think i'd better thank all the others here for posting detail shots also.  I have saved them.  I am enjoying this thread.

Regards

Steve

Steve,

   I have multiple sources that indicate that the Echo was produced in two distinct variations.  The first batch consisting of 34 aircraft built in the UH-1B pattern with the added rescue hoist, rotor brake, and aluminum frame.  these birds had the T53-L11 engine and were first delivered to MAG 26 on Feb 21, 1964.  The second batch of Echos were patterned after the UH-1C and featured the 540 rotor system and greater fuel capacity (242 gals. vs 165 gals.).  Clearly these latter are the ones you refered to earlier.  As I said before, the intigrated resue hoist housing is the only way I know to tell an Echo externally.  I have mutiple pics of both B and C-type Echos with the rescue hoist clearly visible.  Also, to make things interesting, many of the B-type Echos were upgraded to the 540 rotor system and C-type tailboom later.  Supposedly 192 Echos were built in all.  I'm not trying to confuse things, but I would be very interested in any referrences that contradicted this info.  By the way, thanks for your service.  It's great to have another vet on the forum!

   Thanks,

          Ray
 

Ray you are most probably correct.  I'm not looking at in depth documents.  Don't forget that contracts let don't always mean that they get completed as ordered, and then Marine Corps orders (make that Navy orders) many times were piggy backed off of Army ones.  It's all a very confusing incestuous system.  Designed to confuse the enemy.....and ourselves.

I'm sure that you have been to the Scarface website?  http://www.scarface-usmc.org/  If you haven't seen it, there are a lot of photos from the VN era.  (predates me)

Regards

Steve

Hi Steve:

I noticed your comment about the E being a Navalized C model. I know you are Navy because a Marine would have called it a Marinized C model. As noted below I had the pleasue of working with the Navy, great group of folks, very sharp.

I was the tech rep for HT8 in 1972-73 timeframe. We were at Ellison (sp) field in Pensacola and then move to Whiting Field. HT18 was right next to us at Whiting and I was called over there one time for something, not sure what though. When were you at HT18? It would be neat if we were there at the same time.

I'm trying to think what structure was still Magnesium. The B model had only the bottom of the tailboom mag, all other skin was aluminum. My bird 62-2046 was this way as my tailboom had a big crack down the bottom. Originally the transmission  and other drivetrain components had some mag cases, and those would have been changed to aluminum, but the Army got those later anyway.

Bell actually made 27 HH-1K's so all were made that way not a rework later. I just noticed that 8 UH-1L's, 45 TH-1L's and 27 HH-1K's  were made under the same contract number. In the days of 1966 Bell was running three assembly lines, 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Every 8 hours a Huey came off the line.

Bell has a habit of using the basic model print, in this case say a B model cabin, then modifiying that print to create all the rest of the small cabin aircraft or 204 cabin versions. I wouldn't be surprised if I went back to the prints, all the various versions listed here started from a basic B and then you added the mods necessary to come up with whatever final version you wanted.  Whenever I have to go to the old prints, the first few pages are nothing but notes and changes.

Ed

Ed,

  I'm glad to see your numbers jive with the ones I posted above.  Here is what I have for the UH-1E production summary:

Serial nos.                         Number Built             Construction nos.

151266/151299                          34                      6001/6034      based on the B model

151840/151887                          48                      6035/6082   based on C model from here 

152416/152439                          24                      6083/6102

153740/153767                          28                      6107/6134

154750/154780                          31                       6135/6165

154943/154969                          27                       6165/6192

155337/155367                 would have been 31         6193/6223 this last batch was cancelled

I hope you find these numbers accurate as well.

Steve,

  Since my dad was a Army doorgunner, I haven't spent as much time researching the Echo and it's subvariants, but I hope that some of the info I have provided will be useful.  As one well known new organization puts it:  I report, YOU decide!  By the way, thanks for the excellent web site.  It will take a while to look through everything there!

     Ray

Hi Ray;

Do you know who did the upgrade? The only two places that I know of that could handle such a job would be Corpus Christi and or Bell. 

Bell contracts show 160 pure E's built, then there were 57 of the UH-1E/UH-1L made. I suspect someone had the Marine records of E models and then that would mean that in the last order of aircraft 25 of them were L models, and 32 were E models. My records didn't give a breakdown of how many of each were built on the last order.

Yes it is great to have another vet join us.

Ed

Ray:

Still awake huh?

Whoever originally copied the numbers did something that I sometimes do and that is forget to count the first aircraft as one.

Rather than go through all the numbers, the first aircraft was 6001 , 151266,and the last number in the first group is 6033, 151298. When you add 6001 and 6033 you get a difference of 34 aircraft.

I still show 155337, 6192 thru 155354, 6209 for a total of 18 aircraft on a contract.

Also there is 157851, 6210 thru 157858, 6217 for a total of 8 aircraft on a contract. 

Remember there is 25 aircraft that were UH-1L's in that contracted group. It is possible that someone thought those aircraft you mentioned were cancelled E models, however my guess is they were UH-1L models for the Navy.

You guys do amaze me for finding all that information.

I am going on vacation tomorrow, be back on Monday my time.

Regards,

Ed

Ed,

  Thanks for the info on the numbers.  Anyway, I think I should apologize to Mel for hijacking his UH-1C thread and turning it into a UH-1E, UH-1L, TH-1L, HH-1K thread instead.  This stuff is fascinating though, and I will probably keep posting just to see where it goes!

My next move is to post some UH-1E and subvariant pics to see what Steve makes of the various models. 

   Ray
 

Hey Guys!  Play nice!

I don't mind the shift to the Navy and Marine variants as long as it helps modeler to build a more accurate model.  That's what I intended by this Post on the UH-1C.  I'm really surprised it's getting a lot of attention with most of the guys building UH-1D's or H's lately.  I don't think anyone has professed to "know everything", just that the "data" they have supports a certain figure.  As we all know any "data" can be wrong or misinterpeted.

Thank everyone for replying to this Post!

Locked and loaded!  Coming hot!

Mel,

  I thought we might have lost you there for awhile.  Glad you jumped back into it.  I must confess that I thought I had done pretty good research before posting stuff about the Echo, but the guys who flew it and the folks who built it seem to indicate that I need to hit the books a little more.  That's OK, though, it just makes me want to know that much more.  By the way, did you think the aircraft pic I posted WAY back there was the one you photographed in Pensicola?

    Ray