My new home defense tool

stikpusher

.22 LRs will kill, but you have to be really up close and personal, or a really expert shot.

I once shot a ground hog center mass with a CCI segmenting HP with an advertised muzzle velocity of 1640 FPS at 15 yards, he ran back in to his hole. Now I fully realize that a 22 LR can kill...but with the plethora of far greater options accommodating virtually all kinds of people, my conscience won't let me recommend any 22 LR for a defensive weapon. My  though...

Someday I'll be able to afford my dream carry gun... When you run out of ammo you can use it as one of those bats y'all have been mentioning..

.22 LRs will kill, but you have to be really up close and personal, or a really expert shot.

I'd echo what Carlos says...every home is different as well as every situation. As to the racking the slide being ineffective...agree to disagree.

I'm just glad none of y'all think a .22 LR is an adequate home or self defense weapon. Seems like every time I work I get a person wanting me to show them a good 22 for that purpose....

Batter up! LOL! Mike, qualifying and training are two different animals. Learning to combat shoot effectively consistently reduces the likelihood of the empty gun in a gunfight with no hits. Home defense scenarios can vary greatly depending upon the home. Tailor your training to best suit your home.

I forgot to mention my home defense tool. A Camden Yards Cooperstown Edition bat #991. One strike, two balls anyone? LOL!

Thanks guys. Yes practicing on moving targets is always best but when it comes down to the heat of the moment I don't think that really matters. I read in this book I mentioned how a police officer and a felon not 15 feet from each other emptied their guns firing at each other and neither one hit anything! The police officer tackled the bad guy and cuffed him but received a lot of ribbing from his fellow police officers. He was a good shot in qualifying and all as well but in the heat of the moment when adrenaline kicks in and fight or flight takes over things change completely. I can understand that although I have not experienced it.

Brian, I don't think chokes even are a factor as the majority of home defense situations are less than 10 yards and more like 7 or 8. At that distance even the cylinder bore of my Mossberg produces a pattern about the size of your fist or smaller. I think any other choke is a hindrance unless you are shooting at longer ranges.

I have been around weapons most of my life but a home defense scenario is not something I have experienced. I have shot trap years ago with my S&W model 1000 semi-auto shotgun as well as benchrest shooting with my Ruger M-77V in .22-250 and my Thompson Super 14 Contender that I shot in .223 Rem and .35 Rem. This is a whole different scenario now and I hope to be skilled enough to protect my wife and I against an attacker but some kind of training is always a good idea I think.

Chokes can play a big factor.  Most guys using their gun for defense just use a built in cylinder choke, but I am of the firm belief interchangeable choke barrels are much more flexible.  Granted big pellets like 00 probably won't see much patterning difference was you go tighter than modified (and indeed may worsen if you go tighter) with smaller pellets you can fiddle.  My 870 with modified choke and the #4 buck puts nice tight clusters out to the ranges you would see inside a home.  The full choke didn't do very much, and I never bothered trying with my extra full turkey choke because of that reason.  But an extra full turkey choke and plated turkey loads can be devastating for self defense too.  I virtually decapitated a big tom at a little over 15 yards using Federal plated #7 birdshot and an extra full choke.  At the shorter distance the string stays together to the point it is almost a slug.  Is it the most optimal for defense?  Probably not.  But it does show what interchangeable chokes and testing different loads of different size can get you, and what you can do and use in a pinch when you have nothing else.

Having said all that, you are absolutely correct that you still need to learn how to hit what you are aiming at.  A 12 gauge can kick like a mule with slug loads or purr like a cat with light upland loads.  If you don't know what to expect from the recoil you may wind up peppering your ceiling and nothing more.

Brian

Well, no matter how many shots one fires,they have to be placed accurately. Distance disperses your shot pattern, and the shorter the barrel of the shotgun, the more that becomes a factor. 60 .33 cal. pellets that hit nothing but air and drywall, or nothing vital dont do the shooter any good. Learning how to shooot accurately under varying conditions (indoors/outdoors, daylight/low light, moving and stationary, near and far) with their primary weapon are the most critical factor.

We have the option of using #4 or 00 Buck shot and I personally have chosen to use 3" 00 Buck round, just because I want to put bigger holes in a bad guy if need be. One can argue the virtues of more smaller holes vs fewer bigger holes (.25 cal. IIRC for #4 Buckshot) for putting down a bad guy. But the chief factor is being able to HIT the bad guy.

Skeet and trap shooting are a great way to hone your skills.

This is the book I mentioned earlier. It's good.

Thanks Carlos. I have been watching a lot of videos on YouTube on tactics, etc and would love to take a course. There is a guy on YouTube that teaches a class on home defense with a shotgun in my area.

His name is Mike Lamb and his company is called, "Stoic Ventures." He's a former recon Marine and really knows his stuff. He teaches tactics to police departments and military all over the country. He recommends #4 buck for home defense and that's what I was going to use but seeing that 95% of police departments use 00 buck and some use #1 Buck I thought I would just use 00. It has a proven track record and the 3" version with 15 pellets instead of 9 in the 2-3/4" is just devastating I am sure. Just think, with four shots you have put 60 .33 cal pellets down range. Wow!

I have the M3 Super 90. It can be switched and fired pump or semi-auto. I do believe that it has a buffer assembly, it is also a straight line fixed stock design with pistol grip. I cant say that I have felt any difference in the recoil of a 2-3/4" and 3" 00 Buck loads. It's not like when you're comparing 00 Buck to #8 load, where there is a noticable difference. At work we now carry a Remington 870 with a Sure Fire light forestock and M-4 type adjustable rear stock with recoil buffer. That is also a very nice shotgun but due to the construction very nose heavy in balance. Before that we had good old Ithaca 37s that looked straight out of "The Untouchables".

I echo Stik, #4 buck is the bomb!  When my Uncle got his first shotty I let him try both some 00 Buck and #4 buck loads to try.  Let's just say the #4 made his jaw drop.  Lots and lots of holes.  The Federal loads pack something like 32 pellets!  I got an awesome deal on them years ago when the local gun shop had a sale for $2 a box.  I picked up 20 boxes then and there!

Brian

I have an aluminium bat and a bad attitude about folks monkeying with my stuff, a .40S&W Ruger for medicinal purposes. I never want to take a life if they can carry it with me on thier backs they can have it BUT  if my wife, dogs, or life is in jeopardy I will defend them with force. Really ought to buy a shotgun because like said above just the sound tips the odds in your favor. Nice firearm man.

GreenThumb

In regards to scaring someone in your house with that pump sound all the experts say that is BS and the only time the bad guy should hear the pump is in a follow up shot. I agree.

Mike, I have seen training films, live fire demonstrations, and the real thing used on the streets. When you have a real house with all the associated items inside, it is pretty rare for any handgun or shotgun round to go through more than one wall let lone exit that room and go into another. Not to say that it does not happen, but not too commonly. Distance alone bleeds off velocity fast.

I own a Benelli... it's the "Cadillac" of shotguns in my experience... I can have four rounds downrange before the first casing hits the ground. With 00 Buck that is some serious hurt up close and personal. I have fired Winchester, Remington, Mossberg, and Ithaca pump guns, and all are good weapons. It's pretty much matter of personal choice as to your prefence in safety and slide release postionings, etc.

As far as racking goes, unless you keep it constantly chambered (something I am not overly keen on for safety reasons), odds are a bad guy will hear it getting chambered in a real world situation.

Nice choice, I like the 870 a little better only because the pump slides on every 500 I've held have been loose as heck...of course, my main use is for hunting and one little sound from a loose pump is enough to ruin a hunt...as far as home defense goes, the louder the slide the better ;)

Well I had a nice reply typed up earlier regarding load choices, but my stinking POS ASUS tablet dumped it before I could post it... as usual... I had said (among many other things) not to worry about over penetration with 00 Buck, and if you were absolutely concerend about it as such, go no lower than #4 Buckshot. Standard modern home construction with 2x4 studs sandwiched between layers of drywall eats up shot. A light in the forearm slide is a great idea. I love those things. Very handy in low light situations.

Nice choice GT.  I can get to many different things in almost any room I might be in.   I don't need a Dog. I live with only a Cat and she is well trained as you can tell from the photo of her from last winter.

GMorrison

I've never been to a range that allows alley sweepers. Costs too much to keep replacing the target posts.

Your Mossy is looking awfully nice. I have the 590A1 and love it. I replaced the standard stock with an adjustable one. Love that gun.

Mike,

Yes, we allow off-topic discussions. I don't have an issue with discussion of firearms, but we all know this is an emotionally charged issue that verges close to politics. I'm going to let the thread stand, but the moment it becomes any where close to political, it comes down. Fair warning to all involved.

Regards, Aaron

Gee!

      That looks mean .I should think that just the sound of racking one in would be scary enough .I digress though, I thought you meant a dog too!

       Now My dog will work just fine. If he doesn't make you go deaf with his incessant barking at strangers , he'll start biting at the ankles and work up. His teeth are sharp too!