What's up With the American Sailors ?

AMEN ! I have to stop here . I lost one brother in Fallujah and the other is dying slowly from his injuries there .  T.B.

I have the feeling that our guys would escort any Chinese out of US territorial waters. Unless there was some obvious blatant reason to detain them. We tend to play by gentleman's rules when it comes to our borders. 

Sure, but the problem there is that they won't want to leave...

I kind of put my foot in mouth on that.....posted up before it was said who and what they were.  Thanks for straighting me out on that, appreciate it muchly.

As far as holding anyone caught off of Catalina, in todays climate, we would probably charter a plane to take them back with first class ammenities all the way, and issue apologies for detaining them.

Interesting where the seven including six Iranian/ Americans who were either released from jail or had their charges dropped, refused to go to Iran. They all stayed in the US. So there was really no "swap for terrorists". A more accurate term would be that we dropped charges against spies involved in industrial espionage, stealing tech secrets, exporting goods that were sanctioned and so forth.

Stik, question. If a rubber boat full of Chinese SOF was caught off Catalina Island, what would we do? I honestly don't know.

The US has not declared war on another country since 1941.  Yet were are still currently "at war". Just ask the folks fighting  all over the globe, and their families. And they were certainly taken prisoner, the photos of their capture prove that. The Code of Conduct applies in their case. While their statements can not be construed as disloyal, they certainly have propaganda value to the regime in Tehran. Otherwise they would not have broadcast them. 

The Code of Conduct restricts and guides actions of personnel during war or authorized intervention. It has specific guidance and rules pertaining to POWs. But the sailors were not at war and they weren't POWs. I think that even if you stretch this circumstance to say it is covered by the code, their statement re 'making a mistake which resulted in their entry into Iranian waters', doesn't constitute a disloyal or harmful statement. IMHO

 

Tojo72

What's up with American Sailors apologizing on video for their actions ??? "We made a mistake".I never seen anything like that.Why would they give something of propaganda value to Iran.I would have thought that common sailors would be be instructed to keep their mouth shut in all circumstances and leave statements to the brass.

Can any service men or ex servicemen comment on that ?

 

Now we can add the wheeling and dealing to give them back a half dozen terrorists for a few more being held........Along with the UN now saying they have held up their end so far........

gobobbie

Americans forget that that the CIA\British intelligence overthrew a democratically elected government in 1953 because of oil interests. They cemented the power of the shah who was not a popular despot, but he was our despot.

The big backstory on that was that Iran has a border with Russia, back then the USSR. We ran Operation Dark Gene and Operation Ibex out ot northern Iran, tasked with finding holes in the Soviet air defence systems. RF-4's.

And it's been a remarkable day.

 

I am pretty familiar with the Iran Iraq war and the shots fired at that time. I was GI then and paid pretty close attention to current events, as well as trying to decyper the reality later.  Reading between the lines as I was taught and trained to do. Anyways, it's good to hear some clarification on the locale of the events. 

Kharq island is one of their major oil terminals, it would be akin to the gulf coast of Texas where the oil terminals are. It is also the site of some Persian heritage areas that predate the birth of Christ. They are sensitive to it because it extends their territorial claims out from the Iranian coast. During the iran-iraq war the iraqis bombed it pretty badly. Americans forget that that the CIA\British intelligence overthrew a democratically elected government in 1953 because of oil interests. They cemented the power of the shah who was not a popular despot, but he was our despot. We supported Sadaam Hussein in his decade long war against the Iranians. During the tanker war when Reagan reflagged Kuwaiti tankers, so the navy would be able to protect them, we fought a series of battles against the Iranian revolutionary guard small boats and introduced them to US Navy whoopass. During this time the USS Vinciencies shot down an Iranian civil airliner. So they really don't have much reason to like us. Bob Gregory Ruining one kit at a time

Gobobbie, if you are familiar with that area, would you consider the island that they were captured near to be akin to Manhattan with its hustle and bustle, or more something more like one of the Florida Keys? Or perhaps San Francisco compared with San Clemente island for a diffrent anslogy? I am not personally familiar with the area and island in question, but I sure don't think it was something so close to actually being in one of their major harbors or ports. 

As a retired sailor who was a lot of time in northern Arabian gulf the sailors did the right thing. The situation was defused and everyone is coming home. Let's put it this way. Two boats of Iranian sailors drift ashore in new York harbor. Their boats are armed and they are dressed in iranianian camoflaige and carrying personal weapons. What do you think we would have done? Bob Gregory Ruining one kit at a time.

On the face of it the Lt. Cmdr. (?) turned a bad situation into a better one.

Nice gratuitous shot there. Explain please- POTUS came down to the Navy and told the sailors to go over and surrender?

Next we'll have Trump lumping them in with McCain saying that they are big "losers!".

Easy from the cheap seats. Plenty of our service members get themselves into situations such as these and we are very fortunate they survive.

In my opinion the troops are simply a reflection of their CIC

waynec

.......

i could say more but my tin foil hat is in the wash.

 

there are aspects to this that have me, and many of us baffled. without the facts i am not going to fault the actions of the sailors on the boats. as mentioned we aren't "at war" with iran. OTOH there are far to many questions even this former ground pounding DAT has about the situation and chain of command orders and influence.

i could say more but my tin foil hat is in the wash.

Generally the ROE is not to fire unless fired upon, but unless they absolutely knew they were in Iraian waters, I can't see them getting boarded, without putting up some resistance.

Iran thinks it can control the entrance to the Gulf  and therefore flexes it's muscles every once in awhile, and usually geets it hands slapped to prove they don't.  Seems like it is about time for another lesson with the ruler on the back of the hand.

I agree, and probably will not be for at least a generation barring unforseen social upheavel.

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stikpusher

Iran was supporting the Shiite militias fighing and killing US service members in Iraq in every possible way until we pulled out. I would hardly consider them friendly. Not since 1979.

I agree. But I understand that the rules of engagement are much stricter than that.

I doubt that a lot has changed about men and women serving today, versus days gone by, regarding conduct when captured or detained by foreign forces. Basically it was to give only the minimum of information, resist with the utmost effort, escape if possible, and give no information about activities prior to capture.

Easy enough to understand, BUT, given the ruthless nature of those that grabbed our folks and their contentious/terrible relations with the U.S.A., I can only imagine that it's entirely likely the Skipper's alledged confession of blame and apology, was anything but voluntary.

He is a young officer, serving with dedication, the lives and health of the crew were his responsibility. I don't doubt for a second that once identified as the mission Commander, he had to deal with threats to do harm to some or all.

I have to put myself in his shoes, if lives were threatened would I let my sailors be executed or imprisoned. Or do what was required at that given place and time, to do all possible to prevent that threat becoming reality. There exists no honor or gentlemanly conduct on the part of these people, that it's said we are not at war with.

In time I hope the Commander will be understood to have made a reasonable and prudent decision, given the position our youngsters were placed in.

Last, what the heck were two small boats doing so far from land, in waters that I consider far from peaceful? Where were the reserve forces that could be implemented to reinforce or recue them, or was there simply nothing of that sort? And since they were grabbed at gunpoint, given that they likely could have made floating debris out of the opposite forces, why didn't that happen? Possibly pre-ordered to not respond with force? If so, why even send them in armed? 

Maybe there is just not much we will ever know about this mission, but I'm truly thankful they have been released, and I share in the happiness their loved ones are feeling now.

If the young Commander prevented harm to his fellow sailors by his likely forced actions, I say well done, Skipper.

 

 

Allies and friends can be two different things. Ok, change the term to "fellow limited interests".

So here's where I see some light. The Iranians certainly are no stranger to Muslim tyranny.

Their orignal religion, Zoroastran, was wiped out when they were conquered by the arabs in the 7th Century. But thereare still plenty of Zoroastrans in Iran and around the world, particularly the Assyrians.

Then they were a secular state until 1979, and had to go through the upheaval and Islamization all over again. Mostly, people in Iran really hate it.

I do think there's an opportunity there. This thing could have really gone south really fast.

 

templar1099

      

 

GMorrison

There is no war between Iran and the US going on, not even in proxy. In fact they are our allies in the proxy war in western Iraq and Syria.

 

   I'm sorry gentlemen I was speaking to the war of Beliefs that is being played out globally.   The " our war " statement was a reflection on pre 9/11 military endeavors.

 

 

Iran was supporting the Shiite militias fighing and killing US service members in Iraq in every possible way until we pulled out. I would hardly consider them friendly. Not since 1979.

      

GMorrison

There is no war between Iran and the US going on, not even in proxy. In fact they are our allies in the proxy war in western Iraq and Syria.

   I'm sorry gentlemen I was speaking to the war of Beliefs that is being played out globally.   The " our war " statement was a reflection on pre 9/11 military endeavors.

No, there has been no proxy combat between US forces and Iranian forces since we withdrew from Iraq. But I would hardly call them our allies in the current mess USN that part of the world. More of two competing adversaries with a common interest against  ISIS, ISIL, or whatever you want to call them.

And again, even in ambiguous circumstances like this, the Code Of Conduct still applies. 

But yes, the how and why of this will be interesting to hear once it comes out.

There is no war between Iran and the US going on, not even in proxy. In fact they are our allies in the proxy war in western Iraq and Syria.

I can't sit here and say they should have done this or should have done that. I was a little surprised to see brown water sailors out in the middle of the Gulf, to see how heavily armed they seemed to be, and to have them so exposed to what seemed to be pretty light coast guard forces.

My guess is that they screwed up some sort of extraction mission, but it's pretty hard to tell.

tankerbuilder

Hmmm!

   Well , I don't follow the stuff on the news these days ( too busy on model commissions ) I will say this though . Articles two and three sums it up for this 24 year veteran of two services .

       The Navy back then was very adamant about this as was the Marine Corps .  T.B.

 

I think we have to differentiate between war and combat. Our War is not this War. Semper FI