cost of the hobby

That's the thing, some of us are on very limited budgets. Try modeling on $15 a month. A lot of times I can't even get a car kit for that anymore. This month I bought 2 cans of paint, 1 sanding srick, and 1 ignition distributor, and still spent over $17.
Lee

This is all quite interesting... I have a 'problem' buying kits that are over £20 ($32 or so), and will think twice about getting something that's even half that cost. Obviously, because I enjoy superdetailling small models and because I do not have the space to store big models, I build mostly in small scales such as 1/72 or 1/76, and 1/144 and 1/200. This helps overcoming this 'problem'. But even with this fairly low threshold, I do manage to find a lot of the things I want, kit wise anyway. If it's not, I'll consider conversion and scratch. What makes this hobby expensive, I think, is the materials and the 'extras'. PE, resin, metal accessories are all very expensive. Other than decals for my airliners, I normally chose not to bother with those items. I find more pleasure and challenge in doing my conversion by myself. Paints, glues, brushes have also gone up in price a lot since I started in this hobby. But all in all, it is still feasible for a newbie to start without having to spend tons of cash. Think how much you'd need to get started in video games..! A TV, a console, controls, and the games...!

A newbie does not need to have everything at once. It has taken me 3 decades or so to reach the point where I am now. All in all, I'd still say that it's a fairly cheap hobby, unless you want to make it expensive.

But Lawrence, if you buy a kit when it costs $ 15,00 and 3 months late the same kit will be costs $ 45,00, in my point of view you´re save your money....or I´m wrong in my point of view?

but Fabio there in lies the problem if you buy the kit for $15.00 and it is $45.00 in 3 months ... i rest my case

Interesting discussion.

I haven't been buying kits as long as most of you. So I don't have memories of kits being sold for under a $1. That would of been awesome though.

I am familiar with certain lines of gaming miniatures, which usually come in plastic or pewter. Games Workshop has raised their prices a couple of times in recent years and it's kind of ridiculous. In some cases you can pay $8.00 or higher for a single figure. [:0] The detail is good and they go together well, but still, that's a bit pricey in my mind. I really question it when another company, Reaper Miniatures, can put out all pewter figures of equal quality and detail (IMHO) ranging in price from $2.99-$5.99 on average. I'm sure there's a lot more that goes into their costs, but geez! Oh, for those of you unfamiliar with GW and Reaper - these are 25mm and 30mm figures.

The problem with miniatures and gaming is that you need quite a few figures to make a decent army to play, 40-50 would be a rather small army (depending on various factors). Of course there are boxed sets, but those easily get towards $20 or more depending on what's inside.

I know the companies need to make some kind of profit in order to stay in business. They need to have money they can invest into new product lines and all. Then consider the distributors and the hobby shops (and their overhead). I don't know -- maybe their profit margin isn't that much.

Nothing but love Tenchi... Besides you were comparing cost, not size. We can hit Orlando and see that 1:1 B52. Let them pay for storage, not to mention TICO airport and the Warbird museum there. Better their dime than mine.

Overhead is some of the cost. That slick box art, packaging, staff, shipping dept., marketing all has to be paid for somehow. And theres a big difference between companies that have 40 items in their product line and companies with 4000. Its why Fabio in Brazil, Me in Florida and JHulk in Japan can all go out and buy the same kit. How many corporate and production offices does Tamiya or Revell have as opposed to Verlinden or some of the other resin and PE add-ons producers or smaller model companies? Do you think that a small cmpany from Eastern Europe has the distribution network that the big boys do? Why do 1/35 Verlinden figs cost $5-$6 each yet I can get a Tamiya box of 4or 5 with acces. for $8?

Cost is relative. You have the power to avoid high costs; avoid purchasing. Otherwise suck it up and open the wallets boys. Or scratch build those details. Remember the old days when there were no PE? What did you do before then? Prices will fluctuate with the market. Companies will raise the prices because the market can bear it. They are protecting their bottom line. Each time you want more money for hourly wages or monthly salary, companies make up the loss in profit to pay you by raising their costs. Taxes go up. Tariffs go up. Production costs go up. Material costs go up. Are you willing to take a pay cut? Why should they? I apologize for giving you guys a economics lesson that I'm sure many know way more about than I do. But I see it everyday. My mechanic wants $50 an hour yet wants to pay me little or nothing for t-shirts for his shop. I'm just as skilled, put in as many hours, work as hard, sweat as much, get as dirty.

Don't view it as a hardship. View it as an opportunity to go back to your roots. Its forcing you to be more creative, resourceful. Adapt, survive, overcome. Please don't tell me that a group of guys as creative and skilled as you have to rely so much on expensive add-ons that you're losing your skills? That you have to "buy" your detailing skills.

Again...nothing but love for all of you guys. I mean that.

Mike

Dear DURR, maybe I´ve exaggerated a little in the high one of the price, however you they are not accustomed with the inflation (Thanks to God) here in Brazil, had times where the price of the things went up every day (7% in a month, 84% in a year) , already they had imagined this situation? Then you not to lose money needed to storage products because tomorrow it already was more expensive, understood?

well i spend about $5 a month on modeling cause i buy cheap and look around the house for stuff.

You can consider many factors, but consider this one. In an average kit you are paying for about 25 cents worth of plastic! The justifiable $ amount is the manufactures recoup price for the tooling, marketing, print work, shipping, and reasonable profit. I still don't buy into $100.00 kits!

Kudos to woody.Take it from a guy who worked at a model production facility.These things are cheep. When I worked there a 4'x4'x4' tote full of raw ground plastic cost about $50.00. Now imagine how many KITS that is. Face it guys and gals we are all getting burned.......

Well, like Woody also said, it's not really the cost of the plastic so much as the R&D and everything else that goes into the production and sales of a kit.
If we really think we're getting burned, then let's just buy the big box of raw plastic for 50 bucks and do it ourselves for the rest of our lives!
Lemme get that engineering degree first, though...

If you think of this as just the cost of the plastic and the cardboard box, then yeah, we're getting burned. But as was pointed out earlier, there are many other "overhead costs" involved. When I look at the quality of today's kits as compared to when I started building (30 some-odd years ago) it's simply no contest. For the most part, the quality of molding, decals, (and even plastic!) is far above what it used to be. And I really don't want to go back to the "old days" of modeling.

I noticed you didn't include the term "Good" in that statement about the good old days...

Your right if we look at just the box and raw plastic. The human body only breaks down into about 89 cents of raw material. I kind of hold a higher value on my production model.
BTW James, you work there for free?

You got paid a wage to work there, along with several others. I know here in Florida, lease costs for building space work out about $1.00 + a sqf per month.
What was the price tag on the injection molding machines? Mixers, heaters, pumps etc. Maintenance contracts on equip. Employee benefits, workmans comp, general and administrative overhead, utilities, etc?

Tamiya's (I'm trying to get a copy of their annual report) US division has a 52K sqf distribution facility, a 21k admin facility, 300 products, R&D, etc. add it all up, counting impacts put upon them by Unions, Material cost increase, Shipping, Trade Tariffs, Dockage, leasing storage space at customs, and a miriad of other things, and I think we're still getting a break for the money vs. enjoyment time. I have the convenience of getting kits when I want, especialy after seeing the great work you guys do, the stuff that makes me want to go out and try a particular kit.

I'm sure that Revell, Italieri, Hasegawa all have similar profiles. There is nothing more that I would like to see than a return to 20 year old kit pricing. But unless something changes drasticly this is an issue that will continue to blister all of us that want to remain in the hobby. I just need to work harder for my money.

Don't get me wrong there are some serious issues with pricing out there. I couldn't agree more. But I also look at it from a market perspective. You want to see inconsistency...go out and buy a car part, now go out and buy that same part for your boat. Same exact part, no differences, none. Except it says Marine in front of it. That will automaticly double the price. Buy gas at a dock, $2.50 to $3.00 a gallon. Order a baked potatoe at a diner, $1.50, order potatoe skins$5.99. Iced tea? Its water with a bag rubbed on the glass! $1.00. $30K for a car? We figured it out to be about $4K in material costs.

As was previously stated, the detail and quality of current kits is pretty darn good. Market dynamics say if you have a sucky kit it won't sell, you go out of business, or make it better. Most kits are pretty hot right out of the box. I would think that by saving money by scratchbuilding rather than buying expensive add ons and detailings it would satisfy two desires. Your creativity and the desire to increase your skills. Save the money there.

I seriously doubt there will be a Congressional oversight committee to look into price gouging of model kits like they did for oil pump prices. Although, maybe with Iraq now being in US control we can use some of those oil wells... I smell a drop in kit prices...

Mike

I just hope someone is buying these over priced kits for kids. In 20 years this will be a moot topic if the younger generation is not brought back into the hobby! I asked some of the young guys where I work if they enjoy building plastic models. The answer from several was that nobody built them anymore! Reason kit prices are too high, doesn't matter. The final outcome may be sad for all. All the points about overhead are valid but if these were plastic tumblers that rely on the same manufacturing process as plastic kits you could buy them at the dollar store for a buck. [:0]

Woody,
I agree, its a very sad situation. But I think society is changing. Young kids want Magic Cards, Digimon and video games, teenagers want video games, electronics, and thumpers for their rice rockets. Static items like models don't hold the attention for them that we enjoy. Its a "do something to impress me and my friends" now. Anyone that is brought in to the hobby is cultivated not just left to their own devices. In 10 years I'm sure we will be having this same discussion. Prices will only go up.

Watch toy manufacturers and the evolution of their product lines. More high tech, chip based, interactive, electronic driven toys. How many static or inanimate "imagination driven" toys do you see kids playing with now? The T.V. and DVD player have become the babysitter, and although comparatively priced to kits, for some reason it is tech winning out over imagination. Little do they know the mindless, drooling idiots they are making by plopping their kids in front of the t.v. turning their lives into 30 minute and 1 hour increments. Give them a model to build and it would stimulate their creative centers, make them research or read a book, develop manual dexterity, problem solving, making synapsis work harder. Stimulating learning and motor skills at the same time.

I don't think price has anything to do with it. Society has created its own demise. I know college students that couldn't tell you who fought in the war of Northern Agression (the civil war for you yankees) or could point out Afghanistan or Iraq on a map. What makes you think young kids could do it any better? The onus is on the kit manufacturers to develop a marketing program to change the paradigm and public perception and work to that end. Use some of that money to expand markets. Chapters of IPMS and other organizations can get the word out and show off more of their stuff to create the path for those interested to take it. Sort of a guerilla marketing campaign.

The expense is a lame excuse (no offense to you) because these same kids will spend $50 for a video game they'll master in an evening , $20 for a c.d. they'll play once, $15 for a deck of cards that they'll drop another $15 to buy booster packs for, $8. for a skating magazine for one article. $6 for movie popcorn, etc. ad nauseum. The kid that works for me has a stereo system in his car that is worth more than what I paid for my car. I think we spend the money we want, on what we want.

Mike

Well said Mike.
Lee

Mike. You nailed it right on the head. I agree with you 99%. I never agree with anyone 100%.

Mike is absolutely right. Unfortunately, most kids today don't have the attention span necessary to produce even a halfway decent model. They're all too used to immediate gratification.

"What? Now I've gotta wait for the paint to dry? Forget that!!"

I started thinking about the imagination factor and the stimulation of the creative process. How many of you catch yourself making your plane do a dive on the way to the shelf, or made a quiet engine noise while moving that tank to the drying cabinet. The sound of motors turning that turret or the almost inaudible, under the breath boom of a gun or cannon. When you site down the barrel of an artillery piece are you looking at it as a modeler or as a commander?

That's something I think we're losing, that simple, playful, imaginative quality in people and I fear that more than I fear the price of kits going up.

Mike

Well Mike I Idid get paid for the work I did how ever it was minimum wage and if you are trying to get tamiyas annual report to prove your point then YOU WIN! Their is no need to go that far! If you guys want to pay the money for the kit then that is your right. I agree that the hobby companys need to survive and profit.After all the more companys their the better off the hobby will be.But is the hobby dying?Is it because of high prices?(or) How do we attract the youngsters back to the hobby? I am simply trying to find other options. .In the past the prices were low.everyone remembers that $1.50(or less in some cases).Companys like Hawk,Aroura,lindberg,pyro,and revell ruled the land and times were good.Things were great then but times have changed.The fact is that I fear that we maybe the last generation of true builders.We have to compete with all of todays toys and gadgits.In order to do that the manufactures will change to survive.We are allready seeing this take place (die cast metal kits).will the companys change to meet OUR needs for a fare price in the future? My focus is on the future and protecting the hobby for my childeren and others.My wish is Someday the childeren of tommorow will return to the hobby much the same way we did. I just hope the hobby will be there for them.I see lower prices as one of the options to keeping interest in the hobby.I also am entitled to my own opinion and to share it with those who share theres.Even if we do not agree.The debate is good for us all.You guys can keep paying the high prices if you want.I will (choke)have to pay them too.However I will not stop looking at other options.I have enjoyed this debate and have listened to the voices of reason.....

Thanks guys...have fun............

QUOTE: Originally posted by renarts That's something I think we're losing, that simple, playful, imaginative quality in people and I fear that more than I fear the price of kits going up. Mike

I believe you have touched on the heart of the matter right there. Rising kit prices give us something to complain about but if you can get somebody excited about something, price will become immaterial. That is why the video game manufacturers, etc can get the young people to part with $50-$100 a pop for a video game or whatever because they have HUGE marketing departments that make these things LOOK exciting and "cool" or whatever. When was the last time you saw an ad on tv showing how fun it is to build plastic models? When have you EVER seen an ad like that on tv. I sometimes think that the kit manufacturers could learn a few things about marketing from some of these video game and toy companies.

Ray

WOW. That's all so true. I fear James Larson is right when he says manufacturers are changing with the times with the die-cast kits - I never really thought of it that way. Kids will quickly throw together a pre-painted, die-cast set of parts and proudly proclaim "Look, I built a model!"

That is a truly sobering thought to think that we could be the last generation of real modelers.

I'm truly depressed. Maybe building something will make me feel better. . .

James, I appologize if I rubbed your fur the wrong way, it was not my intent. Your position brought up some good points and it made me think, that's why I wanted Tamiyas Annual report, not to play "top this" but to see just what the company was doing. I like to research things and its part of my curious nature. Annual reports give up a great deal of information, they allow us to see the disparity, if any, between profit and loss. If there is an extremely wide margin then you're right...those greedy corporate mongers... but otherwise you see the health of the company. It will tell you if prices will go up or go down in the future. You can also see where the company is going. Where your money is going and it reveals a realistic picture of the industry as a whole. Besides if they're making that much of a profit, I want a shot at some stock if available. The time it takes to get such documents would have put it past this discussions lifespan anyway.

I went back this afternoon and asked the kid that works for me why he wasn't into models. As I already knew, it was a sign of the times. Immediate gratification. No patience. I want it done for me, with as little work invested in it as possible. (Which is strange because he busts his rump in the shop) He pretty much said his friends felt the same way. But he did bring up a very valid point that you and others made. ....Cost. Not that its more expensive than anything else we do. Helk read the Aircraft forum, there is a guy who posted there and right out of the box he said this (model building) was cheaper than rebuilding motorcycles and he didn't have to pay for oil or gasoline.

The disparity comes not in buying the kits for $15-$50 a pop but in the start up costs. The paints, tools, glues, etc that are "perceived" to be an ongoing thing and expensive. Not real different if you think a playstation is $200-$300, A DVD player is $100+ etc.
The add ons which can sometimes cost as much as the kit. ($23 for a PzKmp IV, $23 for the Eduard Photo Etch detail) don't help either. (Define irony...a niche market within a niche market)

The key here is perception. This is niche market, and will never be anything more than a niche market. It will never go mainstream, the idea is to change the perception through the clubs, events, letters to major corporations explaining your blistered wallet and what can they do to help. (Oddly enough, sometimes they listen.) And most of all what we in the hobby teach and present to those on the edge and not yet interested.

Its also cyclicle. Look at how many of us, as well as those that are publishing and writing the books we read and buy have done. Read their profiles or blurbs in the frontpiece of their books, how many of you, left the hobby and got back in. Part of it was cost then as now. Before, your parents had an endless source of birthday and christmas presents (they bought your models) then we found other interests (girls, cars, college, highschool, the service) and other things to spend our hard earned money on. Some stayed and continued on but many went elsewhere. Then we grew up, had real jobs, had spare time, and the ability to buy our kits and equipment again. So we came back. And here we are. Our economy sucks. I think the last time we were in this shape we lost those companies like Aurora. They had nothing to carry them through. THey didn't want to make you pay for their survival, or they fell behind and couldn't compete with those that were willing to for your dollar. The result is some pretty slick kits out there. And some pretty rock solid companies.

I too enjoy this discussion and learned a great deal. Tomorrow I take the kid that works for me to a hobby shop. His brother just got out of the hospital recovering from an accident and I think we'll get him a comming home gift at the same trip to get him through his recovery. What do you think? Aircraft or armor? Talk about a captive audience...

Thanks,
Mike

Mike,

Definitly aircraft. Everybody identifies with aircraft however there was alot of coverage on the armour in Iraq. It is a coin toss.

Thanks,

James

I've been thinking about this for a few minutes and I have realized something. We all have a deep passion for the hobby. Quality
,afforability and preservation. We all want these things and sacrafice alot to get them .Its nice to see that their are others that feel as strongly about the hobby as myself and maybe it is this that will carry the hobby on down the road.who knows, maybe their will be a backlash on instant gratification and a renisance will occur.Not likly you say?do you remember the baseball card boom in the 90's?

Mike..No appology needed.I am not offended.Your point was valid.

P.S. You can find free finance reports on most companys that are traded on the markets through the wall street journal.I think you will find the information on the front page.Please let us know what you dig up............thanks again..............

Fear Not! My retirement home comrades! I'm a modeler, and I'm a teen! It's a proud tradition in my family! My father makes models, my stepfather makes models, my grandfather made models(he's a little too old to be doing something as dexterity-involved as models now, sadly), and so forth and so on!

The problem isn't a loss of creativity, that much can be shown by the fact that people still enroll in West Point, teens still get excited by local Southern Pride/Anti-Racist rallies(I don't know if yankees have anything to be proud about[or if they ain't racist], but I'm sure they rally too!), the future is looking bright, if you ask me!(and yes, I can point out Iraq and Afghanistan[and even somalia] on a map.) Anyhoot, models ain't going away anytime soon.

I would say that we modelers are just as responsible for the lack of interest that is growing in model-making. When was the last time any of us invited people to make models? Submit models into a local fair? Howabout interesting our children in the hobby? Have any of us ever tried to hold a Model-Making rally in our local community? Models don't exist in a vacuum, and neither do children. They don't just wake up one day and say, "hey, I wonder what that piece of plastic that looks like an airplane is...". We need to instill a respect and joy for modeling in children, if we want them to find joy in it!

I hope I don't sound too conservative(I am a conservative, after all), but the children ARE our future. The toymakers are only so responsible. We need to look after our children, and give a damn about what they're doing. My parents did it to me, and I'll do it to my children. If we don't act now, revisionist history will do to models what it did to the South, villify and dilute its impact down to nothing!

James,
Thanks. We went and picked up a car, a plane and I got some more armor. That afternoon the kid that works for me and his brother sat down and we went over directions and had an impromptu session. I loaned them some extra tools they were missing and they both dug in. I think they're both hooked considering that now my employee wants to tag along on the next hobby shop sojurn. The cool thing is the kid thats hurt needs something that can help him with his dexterity. To get back some of that motor response he lost. This is perfect.

The cost to me was a few extra bucks, and some time. THe pay off is that at least two young adults (19 & 21) now have a new hobby that seems to grab their interest and slow that "immediate gratification" monkey down. Maybe I've made a couple of converts. I'll admit that the desire has to be there in the first place.

You guys are right, it is the swing of the pendulum and markets are cyclic. It may slow down but I think that the companies operating now know what to look for and how to survive.

Hey Tenchi, I'm glad you're part of that younger minority that has a clue and one day I'd love to discuss revisionist history with you, but they just rang the dinner bell down at the retirement home and me and the rest of the residents gotta eat our porridge, if we're late we'll miss out on the jello........ ;-)

Regards,
Mike

Model building is great recovery therapy. I got back in to it years ago for that very reason.It helped with my motor skills,dextarity, and most of all PATIENTS. I am glad to here of your investments in the future Mike.Maybe we should do more ourselves.Right now I have two small investments running around my house and they love the hobby.However their attention spans are limited to about 15 minutes (5 and 7 years old) .They have a ways to go until their masters.

Tenchi...your wise beyond your years. Stay focused young padwan and you will go far..........


Have fun all...................

Something that caught my attention: "Unfortunately, most kids today don't have the attention span necessary to produce even a halfway decent model. They're all too used to immediate gratification."

Honestly, I'm not too sure about this one. There is a certain amount of 'Instant Gratification', and 'Let someone do It for Me' attitude in youngsters nowadays, granted, but I think there always was. When I was 8 and starting with this hobby, I wanted that first model to be done in 5 minutes. Probably did it in 7 minutes! Impatience is part of being a kid, I think. We learn patience, and in my case, I'm not sure I have much of it, so I still build many models at the same time.

I do not believe that cost is an issue either. Granted there are kits out there that are way too expensive, some I find outrageously expensive still now. Let's face it, parents pay for the first modeling bills, not the kids. In today's world when I see kids/parents spending $100 or more on branded trainers, or even half that on a single computer game, I can not imagine the price of a Revell, a Monogram, a AMT, an Airfix kit being a problem. Again, as you grow up, you come into contact with more expensive models, because you visit dedicated model shops and shows. Most kids are facing the cheaper kits in WalMarts and Woolworth shops.

The hobby is not dying. It's never been so well. We've never had it so good. A minority of kids will get involved into this hobby, regardless of the prices, or anything else, because we are in it. Sons and daughters will try it out, most will fall out of it but some will stay and get really good at it. Nothing will change there. I started because my Dad was into modeling.

The modelers we have become are a minority, in great part catered by specialist press (such as FSM), specialist manufacturers (Verlinden and Co, garage companies). After all, isn't the biggest model manufacturer, Revell, owned by what is basicaly a toy company, Binney & Smith, the creators of Crayola?

This has been a very interesting thread! I hadn't really even considered the cost of supplies and aftermarket parts. I do not agree that this hobby can be compared to video and card games though. I am guilty of playing video games on my PS2 and the games range between 20 - 50 dollars. The problem is that I can play the games again and again or go to Babbages and trade it off for something new. The 50 dollars for the game sounds like a bargain to the teen compared to the 150 to build a nice kit on the cheap! I think the proof in where this hobby is going lies in where they are sold. The sales outlets are becoming specialized as in mail order or if you are lucky enough a hobby shop. The time of Monograms at K-mart and other retailers like them has come and gone. The big stores that still do carry kits have a dismal selection. I guess I'm the only one who remembers the whole row of kits at the local stores. I think the point is that the hobby is shrinking and going to the more dedicated modeller. I predict this hobby in real trouble as the 30 year olds on up leave the hobby. As a final thought, I don't think scale modelling will ever disapear all together. Best regards Woody