Vietnam Cobra

Hi Andy,

Good idea.I have a couple of Revell kits in the stash plus a load of 1/72 ones just waiting to be built up. I'm saving all the rocket pods from my Italeri kits to fit on the Cobras as the ones that come with them are useless. Interesting video. I'm glad I wasn't in that boat!!!

Rich

Andy: 

I have a book entitled Modern Fighting Aircraft AH-1, published by Salamander Books Limited London that goes into the development of the Cobra fairly well. I remember seeing the Sioux Scout and watching a flyover of the Cobra when it had retracable gear at the Bell Hurst facility in early 1966.

According to this book which coincides with your research that 1 Sept 1967 was the officical date the Cobra arrived. In the Salamader book the author also cites a book written by Jerry Scutts entitled UH-1 Iroquios/AH-1 HueyCobra. In this book the author gives the date of August 31 for the first Vietnam combat mission. I was fortunate enough to assist with the unloading and buildup of the first Cobra to arrive in Vietnam. I do remember it was late August as I left country the first week of September 1967. I happended to be in the Bell Saigon office the day that William J. Diehl mananger of Bell customer service asked if I would like to go up to Bien Hoa to watch the first Cobra arrive. We drove up to Bien Hoa and saw the C-130 land with the Cobra. Bob Shockey was the Bell pilot ground school instructor , and I think the pilot was LT Col Stanton who flew the first flight were there to make things happen.  Bell and the Army personnel were very interested in showing that the Cobra could become operational quickly so within three hours after arrival the first aircraft flew a testflight. The Cobra NETT team (New Equipment Training Team) was set up by Dan Edwards (not sure where he is at now) and classes were conducted in Vung Tau Vietnam. I remember the manuals were not yet bound and pages went all over the place during the runup.

Thanks and I am glad to see you start this discussion as it should bring back many memories.

Ed

Its Dave Tela and I conducted that interview.

The first flight occurred on 4 September in aircraft 66-15259, with LTC Anderson as pilot and MAJ Stein as CPG.  This came DIRECTLY from MAJ Stein in an interview I did with him. The Playboy platoon of the 334th AHC went operational on 8 October 67 according to MAJ Ken Rubin, the platoon leader.  

Jon

Jon:

Did I get the Bell people right So much for my long term memory. The 4th would coincide with my being there as I was in Saigon getting ready to go home. Anderson was the CO of the NETT team, right? or was he part of the program that the Cobra fell under?

Edited 25 April. After doing some research and checking with another Bell Helicopter employee, I am going to stand by the month August and 1967 as being when the first G model Cobra arrived in Nam. This is what I remember, true I didn't know the pilots. I would love to get in contact with the then Major Stein as we crossed paths ever so briefly almost 40 years ago.

Ed

Ed, 

The Bell names sound very familiar.  I'm not sure, as most of my research material is packed up at my parents' house in NY, but I'm pretty sure you're right.  LTC Anderson was the NETT CO at the time and from what I remember they initially set up the NETT transition course at Bien Hoa and then moved it to Vung Tau in 1970.  Not 100% sure on that though.  Its been a while since I've looked at that stuff and right now my mind is crammed so full of Apache gunnery data that I think its gonna explode!

Jon

Hi Rich

I noticed my local hobby shop has a few of the Revell 1/32's in, on special offer, so i might grab one for after ive finished this ever growing hoard of hueys lol. Its the only cobra model i have seen so i dont know if there are any better ones out there.

Its nice to see the cobra on film, theres another couple of vids on there, but i think that one's best. I dont think i have ever seen a cobra in any Vietnam war movies. Come to think of it i dont remember seeing a cobra in any movie!

Andy

I noticed my local hobby shop has a few of the Revell 1/32's in...Its the only cobra model i have seen so i dont know if there are any better ones out there.

The only large-scale Cobra's are Revell/Monogram's 1/32 AH-1G and Academy/MRC's 1/35 AH-1W (also re-boxed by AFV Club as a Taiwanese Cobra with some extra resin parts, and Italeri with different decals).  Both are good kits. 

The G is pretty old molds but has been recently re-issued with some updated parts.  It builds up pretty good and is a good base for extra details.

The W is an excellent kit.  It comes out looking great OOB. 

Cobra Company makes upgraded cockpit and weapons sets for both as well.

There are a few in 1/48 and 1/72 too, but I don't know their quality since I don't build in those scales.

Ed.

I have a few of the old Salamander books, most the info i have comes from them, as they are usually pretty accurate. 'Air War Over Vietnam' is a handy little book, it doesnt go into great detail but covers the main basics on most of the aircraft that were over there.

It must have been a welcome sight to see brand new Cobra gunships arriving to protect the troops on the ground, imagine the looks on the guys faces (on both sides) the first time cobras rolled in for support.

You dont have to thank me for starting the thread, its my pleasure. Those of us who didnt serve in Vietnam or fly helicopters, for the most part, have to rely on books and footage to try to gain a better understanding of what guys like you went through, and now with the internet and forums like this, guys like yourself can share your experiences with the rest of us and to me no amount of research can compare to hearing directly from the veterans themselves, from contributions to the forums like yours, so for that, its me that should be thanking you.

Thank you Ed

Andy

Hello Cobrahistorian

Wow i had no idea it was you in the interview, i hope you dont mind me posting the link. I have amended the spelling mistake. I came across the site by chance and yours was the first one i listened to. I love the bit about the hut . I dont have your book but i would love to track down a copy now i know about it.

I dont pretend to know anything about cobras other than what i have read in books and seen on the net. Thats the main reason for this thread, so novices like me can learn a bit more about the models we are trying to recreate. I expect you will be able to answer most the questions that pop up in here and if you could help with info that would be great.

As with the huey thread this one could never hold all the information there is about cobras but it helps to bring bits of info and pictures dotted around on the net that could otherwise go unseen to one place and with the contributions of the vets and helo experts it makes it a great place for us all to come for reference.

Thanks in advance Cobrahistorian and thanks for doing the interview with Dave Tela, it gives a great insight into the life of a cobra pilot in Vietnam.

Many thanks

Andy

In 48th, there are a couple options. 

Monogram AH-1S/F

Aurora AH-1G

Fujimi AH-1J

Italeri AH-1W

Italeri AH-1Z 

All of the above kits have raised panel lines and the cockpit detail is pretty sparse.  The Monogram by far has the best cockpit detail.  The rest can really be spruced up by the addition of Cobra Company's various detail sets.  Unfortunately, the only Vietnam Cobras in 48th are the Aurora G model and Fujimi J.  Both are out of production, and I have no idea what happened to the Aurora molds for the G.  I just acquired an Aurora G and was considering trying to cast G fuselages in resin, but it may just make sense to get the CC conversion kit for the Fujimi AH-1J.  

The new Italeri AH-1Z is pretty crappy as a Z.  It is based on the AH-1-4BW and does not have the correct rotor, wings, sensors, exhausts or cheek fairings. But the W is a good kit for a Desert Storm AH-1W.  If you want to build it as a current bird, there is significant surgery that needs to be done to make the correct NTS upgraded nose. 

I haven't built the J yet, although I do have one on the way.  I'm going to do it up as an Operation MARHUK bird from 1972 off of North Vietnam.  

I haven't decided on my AH-1F's paint scheme yet, but it will most likely be from the 10th Mountain division in Somalia 1993.  The AH-1G is going to be the mount of none other than our own "Snakedriver".  He's been a good friend for a while and I'm excited to build his bird.  And finally, my Whiskey is going to be "Angel" from HMLA-269 that flew in OIF.  

Jon

Hello Gino

I think the Revell kit i built and the ones in the shop are the re-issued versions. It went together really well, i had a little trouble with the cockpit as you have to get it just right for the sides to fit but other than that, it was great fun to build. It came with 7 and 19 shot rocket pods and 2 minigun pods (which i thought were fuel pods lol) and "Squatter Swatter" decals.

I didnt have internet access at the time so my cobra sports silver minigun and grenade launcher on the nose turret and engine colours that would make cobrahistorian cry lol. It needs a bit of corrective work and some decals as the teeth went wrong and for all my best efforts ended up in the trash.

Hopefully my next attempt will do the AH-1G more justice and i will get the cobra Company cockpit (i hadnt noticed Chris did a weapons set too)  wouldnt mind adding the mounted minigun like you mentioned in your thread. These were the only pictures i could find regarding the M35

Could they not carry miniguns on both sides then?

It would be great to get hold of a cobra in 1/35 so i will keep an eye out for the ones you mentioned.

Many thanks

Andy

p.s how do you quote just one sentence from someones post? as i can only quote whole post.

Could they not carry miniguns on both sides then?

Yes, the 7.62mm minigun pods could be, and were, carried on both sides.  The 20mm M-35 cannon could not be carried on both sides at the same time due to weight of the 2nd gun and the extra ammo needed to feed it.  The M-35 was only carried on the port side as well.  I'm assuming it had to do with center of gravity and flight characteristics.

As a note, this pic is inverted.  The front canopy opens on the port side, not the starboard side.

p.s how do you quote just one sentence from someones post? as i can only quote whole post.

Simply copy the text you want, then place it between quote code, [ q uo te ] text here [  / q uo te ], only leave out the spaces in the code.  Same as you can do for images.

Thanks Gino

Hi,

I'm after some dimentions of the XM-158 FFAR launcher as I want to scratch build some in 1/72 and 1/48 so I need to know their length and width. I've tried several searches but come up with nothing. 

Thanks, Rich

Rich,

  Mutza lists the length of the 2.75 in rockets without a warhead as 99.8 cm.  I can't find the length of the warheads, but the shotest warhead ends up even with the opening of the M-158 tube.  if you can find the length of the warhead, you've got the length of the tube.  As for the  M-158 tube's width, since the rockets we 70mm, in 1/72 scale a 1mm diameter piece of tubing should work great.  Maybe Cobrahistorian could measure one of the tubes for you if they have any in storage at Ft. Rucker.  

      Ray
 

I'll see what we can do about measuring pods.  We have a couple on a UH-1B in the museum here at Rucker. The rockets we use today are different from Vietnam-era ones.  The fins have been completely changed and the overall length of the rocket motor is shorter.  

Skypirate- 

Great pics!  I'm wondering about that 1-9th Cav bird (the one with the sharkmouth).  That very well could be "Heather Dawn" before she got her name!  I worked on that helicopter at the NJ Aviation Hall of Fame four years ago and started restoring her to her original Vietnam appearance.  Good stuff!

Jon

Thanks Ray and Jon,

I'm a Paramedic and we've just got these new blunt end syringe needles for drawing up drugs and flushes which are 1mm across. Perfect. I've only seen them in one size so far, I'll have to ask our stores manager if they come in 1/48 as well!!! They don't go near any patients so no worries about infection. Guess I'll be canulating loads of patients in the next few weeks. I reckon I can get 2 pods from the one needle. How would you guys cut surgical steel?

Thanks again,  Rich

The most common warheads on the rockets were 10lb and 17lb, 10lb being the shortest.

Now if we could only get a decent AH-1G in 1/48th.

Think, but I am not positive that Fujimi ended up with the old Aurora mold

Cobrahistorian wrote:

I haven't built the J yet, although I do have one on the way.  I'm going to do it up as an Operation MARHUK bird from 1972 off of North Vietnam.   I haven't decided on my AH-1F's paint scheme yet, but it will most likely be from the 10th Mountain division in Somalia 1993.  The AH-1G is going to be the mount of none other than our own "Snakedriver".  He's been a good friend for a while and I'm excited to build his bird.  And finally, my Whiskey is going to be "Angel" from HMLA-269 that flew in OIF.   Jon

Been meaning to ask someone about that J kit Jon. I have Osprey's Air Combat book entitled "Bell AH-1 Cobra" by Mike Verier. It was published in 1990 and I dont think its easy to come by anymore. Anyway it was a very large chapter on Operation MARHUK with loads of pics. After reading the book, several times, I also want to do a MARJUK bird, especially in 1/48th.

And you can never get enough of the old Monogram kit lol. The one I've been working on(very slowly for the past 5-6 months) is going to painted up as one my father's birds form Desert Storm. This one is called "Betsy", I wish I knew what the tail number was but unfortunatly all the pictures I have of it, none are of the tail section. There are two more birds I wish to make as well that were in my dad's unit. One is OD green with a big, red sharksmouth and yellow crossed sabers on the sides of the doghouse and the other is sand colored with a Jack Daniel's whiskey logo on both sides of the doghouse. The latter of these two, I believe the tail number is "497." Thats all I can read on the pics. If I ever get this old decrepet scanner working, Ill get these pics up on here.

my father was A/4/77th ARA in 1970-71........as you may or may not know, ARA used the cobra quite a bit differently than the line aviation battalions and the cav.   The most notable physical difference being that the ARA birds almost always have 19 shot pods on all four wing stations.  From what I understand, and all the photos and such that I have seen, it is very rare indeed to find a cobra in the "heavy hog" configuration unless it was ARA.     My father has told me that the ARA guys did not like the 20mm equiped helicopters for various reasons, and I have reference photos of some of their 20mm capable birds being used exclusively with the 4 x 19 shot pods.  I also think I have, or could get some photos of some of their birds with the "double thumper" twin 40 mm chin pods.......although my memory is fuzzy compairing what he has in his photo album, versus what I have in digital format.

Another main difference between ARA vs line aviation battalions or cav was that the ARA was tied into the divarty net, as I understand it.......and worked thru those channels, with 2 birds on hot alert ready to provide aerial fire missions at all times.........he has related to me that they flew quite a bit at night, providint fire mission support to units in contact, and that they hated to fly at night in the mountains of I corps.........in fact, the A/4/77th lost two cobras and crews from his platoon in a nightime midair.  This link shows all the fatalities of cobra's in vietnam.....

 http://www.armyaircrews.com/cobra_nam.html

He also has told me that the ARA would fly the red portion of early and late pink teams with the 2/17th cav in order to suplement that units 9 cobra order of battle.  (an ARA battery had 12 cobras)......

if you start with this link, and dig thru the various ARA, CAV, and Line Aviation Battalions or AWC's there is a wealth of information on this website...

 http://www.vhpamuseum.org/defaultmenu.shtml

The officers did not exclusively wear artillery brass.  Aviation Branch did not exist until 1985, so the unit's officers were branched completely differently, even though they were aviators.  I know several officers who were in 2/20th ARA who were Infantry or Armor officers as well as Artillerymen.  The ARA flew heavy hog quite a bit, but I do have pics of 2/20 birds with both 20mm and 7-shot pods (although these are the exception, not the rule).  As Phantom Works pointed out, it was not uncommon to see 20mm capable birds with 4 19-rocket pods instead of the 20mm mounted. 

Whiskey - I think I've got Mike's Cobra book somewhere around here.  If I find it, I'll try to scan the pages on MARHUK. 

 Jon
 

Try this linkfor info on the rockets.

http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/app4/275in-rockets.htm

Someone else was asking about the ID of the Tube, the test spec requires it to be 2.8" by 42" long. Of course there is some minor plus and minus dimensions but nothing that you would notice in the model scales.

Ed

Jon:

I found this link that has an abstract of Lt Col Anderson's report. Can you get this or do you have it?

It would prove interesting to see their thoughts.

http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADD703015

Bob Shockey the pilot ground school instructor was awarded a civilian medal of some type for his help on the team. Bob was the only guy I met that had a photographic memory, he could tell you when the pilot pressed the gun trigger what relays would actuate but also the wire numbers. Amazing person, lived and breathed aviation.

Ed

this is a 2/20th blue max cobra that is NOT in heavy hog config (as cobrahist aluded to earlier)........also, it appears the cobra in the next revetment over is painted nearly gloss black or otherwise very dark OD green..........any thoughts?

these are more typical photographs of blue max cobras (from what I've found) in the heavy hog configuration

these are 4/77th ARA....

this is a d/101 cobra with a 20mm on the port wing that suffered an engine stall?  notice the bent skids.......

these other pictures show various side shots of cav birds with 20mm loadout...