WW 11 German aircraft Swastika decals??

Swastikas and the manufacture of them are outlawed in Germany. Possibly in other European countries. And rightly so. The debate as to wether a decal placed on a historic model to make it accurate goes on. I did place them on my Bismark model as it is part of the ship. They were large on the ship and I don't see how one can  build a 1/350 Bismark without them.

For instance Bob Ballards fine book on the Bismark shows the swastikas, and that did not create controversy because it is the reporting of history. A model is the representation of history. My decals were Superscale and made in the US.

On the other hand my Trumpeter BR-52 came without them however they were small in scale so I just used the kit decals without them.

 

Generally speaking, European marketing laws do not permit the displaying of Swastika on packaging of any sort. That is why you don't see Swastikas on box art, the packaging would be illegal under European marketing regulations.

It is not illegal for a kit manufacturer to produce a decal sheet for their kit that includes the Swastika, but for European marketing rules, the graphic has to be broken up into fragments of the image that the modeler themselves will assemble while decaling the model. This extends not only to the Swastika on German subjects, but also the Swastika in the WWII Finnish roundel.

imo the swastikas shouldnt be banned its a no brainer its as if the world is trying to deny the existance of the nazis and thats a BAD idea

Don't forget the Americans dropping an atomic bomb on a civillian centre or then dropping incendiaries on Tokyo.

 

Anyways. On the subject, there are a few companies making aftermarket swastikas. I bought a sheet of 1/48 ones for around $10 canadian dollars. They have ones on the sheet specifically for 109s, 190s, he111s.

 

Just a nuisance having to get them aftermarket. I still havent found a 1/72 sheet of them. I ended up buying some printable decal sheets. I used white sheets, printed the swastikas black then trim around them for the white outline.

 

WW 11 German aircraft Swastika decals??

World War Eleven?

deeve wrote:

Don't forget the Americans dropping an atomic bomb on a civillian centre or then dropping incendiaries on Tokyo.

Hiroshima was a city of industrial and military significance. A number of military camps were located nearby, including the headquarters of the Fifth Division and 2nd General Army Headquarters, which commanded the defense of all of southern Japan. Hiroshima was a minor supply and logistics base for the Japanese military. The city was a communications center, a storage point, and an assembly area for troops.

 

I am working on the Revell Germany Junkers G-38. The instruction sheets calls for the rudders to be painted red. The decal sheet includes small white circles for the swastika. I obtained the ones I need to complete the model from Squadron. The Aero Master line of decals has swastikas in a variety of sizes.

To me, its crazy. You have to think what these political correctness numptys are actually thinking.

Do they think if they dont print pictures of the swastika, then loony right wingers wont start fascist parties? Or what about the youngster who looks at the empty squre on the tail and says 'Whats that Daddy?' Daddy will, im sure, explain to sproggo exactly what it is and what it represents. I bet you fifty bucks he doesnt say...'and you make sure you dont become a Fascist son'

Deleting the swastika serves no purpose at all. Germany is a country that will always have the legacy of WW 11 (Hammer ) and IMO the best way to move forward is by not trying to hide any of its past, be open about the lot. That way theres no secrets to uncover or have an exciting mystique about them.

Just my worth.

...Guy

deeve wrote:

Don't forget the Americans dropping an atomic bomb on a civillian centre or then dropping incendiaries on Tokyo...

The Twentieth Air Force ran out of military targets!

Once the industrial centers were destroyed and they didn't give up, the United States Army Air Force started putting areas that had dense concentrations of workers homes on the target lists. We put a torch to the enemy.

100% fact.

Let's try to stay on topic.  Hiroshima / Nagasaki is not the question.

I had this debate with the marketing people at Cox when I was designing decals for their Fw-190 and Bf-109 flying models.  They objected because the Swastika was a symbol of evil, hatred, fear, and did not belong on their models.  Nevermind that the airplanes themselves were weapons of evil, hatred, and fear just as much as the symbol carried on the tail.

My view is that as long as we try to bury the Swastika, we consent to give it power as a symbol of terror.  The only way to destroy that power is to bring the symbol into the light and have it become so common it no longer evokes an emotional response.  Education is also a great tool for destroying the power of a symbol.  The Swastika, as many people know, was taken from Buddhism where it was a symbol of luck and fortune.  Also, examples of it could be found in American architecture and design as late as the 1920's.

Those who forget (bury, ignore, delete, or deny) history are doomed to repeat it.

I include swastikas on my German airplanes.  I am also Jewish.  There you go.

There is a very thorough article, including the ban in Germany, on Wiki. One thing worth pointing out to the original poster is that the ban is a complete one against reproduction in any form of a symbol of an outlawed party. Model kits are IMHO an innocent victim, if you will.

I cannot second guess their reasons, but with all due respect, it has to do with bigger issues in their eyes than PC. I would assume the law is used to prevent the publication of inflammatory newsletters, or the gathering of Brownshirts in public places, which is certainly an ongoing concern in Germany.

I cannot think of an analogy here in the USA, however. I suppose the Confederate battle flag. Hmmm? Otherwise I think we're pretty free to display what we want and take comments afterwards.

Just my

You make some good some good points Roguepink. If a jew can keep it in perspective we can all lighten up. Also the symbal was used by classical greece, the native americans use it to represent the thunderbird,(My fathers unit, the 45th inf Div replaced it with thunderbird in 1933).  Having said that I'll go one better, My Hasagawa P47's has an optional decal of the victory hashmarks showing 28 little german battle ensigns sans swastika.  Are we so fragile that even showing it to illustrate how 28 of em were sent to their doom is still too offensive. If so than excuse me, I have to change out of my big boy pants now!.

A good analogy; the swastika and the Confederate battle flag. What other symbols of defeated regimes or movements are being suppressed? Why hasn't the Rising Sun been abolished, what with the rape of Nanking and the murder of POWs by the Japanese? I am by no means saying that it should be, as it is an ancient symbol of Japan, but why wasn't it banned, too?

subfixer wrote:

Why hasn't the Rising Sun been abolished, what with the rape of Nanking and the murder of POWs by the Japanese? I am by no means saying that it should be, as it is an ancient symbol of Japan, but why wasn't it banned, too?

Good observation I see guys racing around in import tuners with Hino maru decals. I guess the difference is the politcal underpinnings, after all the germans nat insg has always been some variation of the balken kruez.  Comparing the A bombs to the war crimes of the axis is just wrong headed.  Civil bombardment was a necsasary albeit lamentable evil.  At the time an invasion of Japan against an organized military was considered untenable, so bombing cities would keep the enemy unbalanced & less able to marshall a defence.  It by no means compares to the systematic depravity of say the march from Bataan.

subfixer wrote:

Why hasn't the Rising Sun been abolished, what with the rape of Nanking and the murder of POWs by the Japanese? I am by no means saying that it should be, as it is an ancient symbol of Japan, but why wasn't it banned, too?

The Rising Sun Flag with the 16 rays was abolished from 1945 until 1954, when the Japanese Self Defense Forces were established.

GS

If any of you would go visit any concentration camp today, I am sure there would not be any  more discussion on the subject. Some people decided long time ago to not display swastikas anymore. They knew why. If you did not experience what they did, do not question their decision.

 

Swastikas on the models is a modeller decision. 

Question: (Model-focused in order to not disturb the moderators, and we all should likely stay that way lest this thread turn into a flame-session, because all the fuel is here for one, it just needs a spark to go WHOOMP! So let's all shut up about the other crap. THis isn't the forum for that.)

Would you think that a model of a German WW2 figher or bomber that is a contest winner in every way be passed over by the judges for lack of a swastika?  Frankly, and speaking only for myself, I think that if it was on the real thing, it needs to be on the model...

 

 

Hans von Hammer wrote:

Question: (Model-focused in order to not disturb the moderators, and we all should likely stay that way lest this thread turn into a flame-session, because all the fuel is here for one, it just needs a spark to go WHOOMP! So let's all shut up about the other crap. THis isn't the forum for that.)

 When your right your right, good call Hammer!.

So as I was saying before Hammer inturupted, I like models I think models are cool.

 

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public.

So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign.

Its uninteresting if other countries did war crimes, too .You can´t compare war crimes, otherwise you couldn´t use any markings of any nations, because every nation in the world comitted war crimes, e.g. Usage of Toxic liquids like Agent Orange or ethnical cleanings in Tibet.

Futhermore i have to agree that decaling with swastika is the decision of every single modeler.

 

tango35 wrote:

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public. So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign.

That's true, the Swastika ban is primarily a German thing. It's not an EU rule and in a lot of other European countries there is no law against Swastika's. But because Germany is such a large country (with a large market for models) most companies delete the Swastika's from their decal sheets.

This ban sometimes leads to funny things. I was once in a modelshop Germany that sold Swastika decal sheets. But since this is prohibited they where packed in a sealed envelope, called "german national insignia 1933-1945" (or something like that) and had explicite instructions to only open the envelop at home.

The Hinomaru wasn't actually adopted as the national flag of Japan until the last 90s or early 2000 I believe and there is still significant debate within Japan about the appropriateness of its use.  Finland originally used the swastika as did Latvia within their roundels.  In fact here in Korea, the symbol for a Buddhist temple is a swastika.  As for whether the symbol is ok on models, I think that should be up to the preference of the builder.  I like to build models for historical reasons and in my opinion if it was there on the real subject, it should be on the model.  Should WWII Italian subjects delete the roundel of the fascist regime?  After all the axes were the original symbol of fascism.  Should Soviet era subjects delete the Red Star?  Should the Romanian or Bulgarian crosses be ommitted because they were allies of Nazi Germany?   Should we omitt the confederate battle flag from diorammas of the civil war because of slavery or the U.S. flag because we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan (regardless of the reasons)...  Again build what you want, the way you want, I think models should be as historically accurate as possible and ommitting roundels and symbols on them for political reasons or because the what the symbol stands for is revolting, goes down a road that I think is best untraveled...  Just my two cents.

tango35 wrote:

Here in Germany the swastika are banned by law, because the swastika is the sign of a criminal organization ( § 86 StGB, Criminal Code of the Federal Republic of Germany ). The Law allows you to show the swastika in your own house or flat, but its forbidden to show in public. So, for a modeler in Germany it means, that you have to hide the swastika if you want to show your model at an exhibition. That are the rules. Its "funny", that politicians think, that banning will wipe out the memory of this sign. Its uninteresting if other countries did war crimes, too .You can´t compare war crimes, otherwise you couldn´t use any markings of any nations, because every nation in the world comitted war crimes, e.g. Usage of Toxic liquids like Agent Orange or ethnical cleanings in Tibet. Futhermore i have to agree that decaling with swastika is the decision of every single modeler.

Danke sehr, Tango35, for referencing the specific legal prohibition.  I think many people today are ignorant of the history behind the law.

Lest anyone assume that the Germans, on their own, passed that law, out of some sort of modern liberal political correctness, understand that the first legal bans were put in place immediately after the war, with the support of the Allied Control Commission.  It was adopted in the Grundgesetz (or "Basic Law", the Federal Republic's constitution), when the Western Allies formed their zones of occupation into the Federal Republic of Germany in 1949.  It has been part of German law ever since.

This post isn't intended to indicate support or disapproval of the law, just to help explain why it is in place.

Although as an American, I believe you should be able to show whatever you want.  This is precisely the sort of political speech the Founding Fathers had in mind (NOT strip clubs-sorry, guys).  But just as all Americans have the right to express an idea, no matter how distasteful, our fellow citizens have the right to argue the opposing view.  And all this should go down, without anyone throwing any punches.  There-there's our 50-cent civics lesson for the day.

Regards,

Brad

the Baron wrote:

Although as an American, I believe you should be able to show whatever you want.  This is precisely the sort of political speech the Founding Fathers had in mind (NOT strip clubs-sorry, guys).  But just as all Americans have the right to express an idea, no matter how distasteful, our fellow citizens have the right to argue the opposing view.  And all this should go down, without anyone throwing any punches.  There-there's our 50-cent civics lesson for the day. Regards, Brad

 it is not a place to do this discussion but I started to really have fun here 

My

I also am disappointed with the ommission of swastika's in my recent Lindberg Stuka kit, although they are shown in the instruction sheet.

Last week I found in my spares stash (I keep spare/leftover decals in a special storage box) a sheet from another kit and the unused swastika's looked right, so I applied them from that one.

Since this kit is made and sold here in the U.S., I do not see why some European taboo should apply here but, there it is.

Funny, this taboo did not apply to the reference book I recently bought that was printed in the UK.

All Luftwaffe aircraft illustrated in it have swastika's.

Meanwhile, my Tamiya kits do not have them ommitted-so this looks to me like this manyfacturer is using the Euro thing as a means of "getting off the hook" in providing a complete set of detailed decals.

At least that is the feeling I am getting.

Tom T

Just out of curiosity would reversing the direction make any difference as far as the law is concerned in Germany? My understanding is many of the similar signs (Finnish, Buddest etc) actually face the other direction so technically you could say thay are not Nazi swastikas. Inaccurate sure but more accurate than their ommision.

T_Terrific wrote:

My I also am disappointed with the ommission of swastika's in my recent Lindberg Stuka kit, although they are shown in the instruction sheet. Last week I found in my spares stash (I keep spare/leftover decals in a special storage box) a sheet from another kit and the unused swastika's looked right, so I applied them from that one. Since this kit is made and sold here in the U.S., I do not see why some European taboo should apply here but, there it is. Funny, this taboo did not apply to the reference book I recently bought that was printed in the UK. All Luftwaffe aircraft illustrated in it have swastika's. Meanwhile, my Tamiya kits do not have them ommitted-so this looks to me like this manyfacturer is using the Euro thing as a means of "getting off the hook" in providing a complete set of detailed decals. At least that is the feeling I am getting. Tom T

Tom,

I think, perhaps, you answered your own question.  I assume the kit in question (the one without swastikas) is made in Germany by a German company?  As others have pointed out, this is a result of a law in Germany, which is why your book from the UK and your kits from Japan have the swastikas.

This topic comes and goes in the forum on a monthly basis, there is no definite answer per se.

As mentioned in one of the posts, the "real" reason you dont find Swastikas on our model kits is due to modeling (military replicas) are bystander/collateral casualty to the much MUCH bigger issue of using the outlawed symbol of an illegal party/ideology.

In other words, we dont get certain decals in order to keep neo-nazi elements parading with nazi flags in certain countries. 

But military modeling is such small potatoes that we can skirt the issue by buying decals in pieces, or inside envelopes, etc etc. So, the small "annoyance" at having to put together a swastika decal, or finding AM decals is the price we pay for certain European/German laws.

I do not think has ANYTHING to do with the catch all label "political correctness" or historical issues or even mesures of "evilness". Basically boils down to legal regulations.

 

Political correctness really has very little to do with the banning of swastikas in Europe. For most Europeans the swastika holds far more horror than it does in America. I had an uncle who participated in the liberation of at least one death camp while serving with Patton's 3rd. Army and he never seemed to be quite "right" after what he saw. While many consider it silly or political correctness run amok to ban these things still others have deep scars. I am fully aware that the swastika appears in many forms, i.e. Finnish A/C insignia, Norse mythology, Native American religion, and Budhist. My greatest shock was seeing a form of the swastika on a Budhist temple while on road convoy in VietNam. All that being said, another poster clarified that ya can't show 'em on the boxtop but their usually on the decals in "kit form". If not, there's always AM decals. It's not really all that important since they are usually available somewhere.

 

A few weeks back I ordered online and one of my purchases was a low priced Arii FW 190 in 1/48th scale. I finally opened it this morning and to my surprise there are two swastikas on the decal sheet. My father paid almost 70 bucks for the same plane in 1/24th scale and no swastika. Oh well...