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Fleet Air Arm Swordfish serial number - Raid on Taranto 1940

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  • Member since
    February 2010
Posted by jeremy Pern on Wednesday, February 10, 2010 12:25 PM

Dear Copredy

Whilst browsing the internet I came across your post about Tony Wray. He was my uncle, the eldest brother of my mother, Mrs Patrica Pern. She's is now 88 years old and lives in Sussex. Tony and his exploits, coupled with his early death on the Illustrious are, as you can imagine part of our childhood memories.

I'm sure that my mother would be delighted to hear from you and if you'd like to get in touch with her please let me know. I can be contacted at this email address

jeremy.pern@wanadoo.fr

I look forward to your reply

Yours

jeremy

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by cropredy on Wednesday, May 19, 2010 11:25 PM

A follow-up on Tony Wray's plane after some additional information came my way.

What camouflage color scheme was used for Wray's plane L4R?  When building the model, the references I had were contradictory:

Warpaint Series No. 12. W.A. Harrison had a color drawing of 5L (819 squadron - served on Illustrious but 5L wasn't one of the mission craft) showing:

  • Extra Dark Sea Gray / Dark Slate Gray upper mainplane upper surfaces; Sky Grey undersides and lower fuselage;

Fairey Swordfish in Action. W.A. Harrison had a cover drawing of 5H (824 squadron - ex Eagle, served on Illustrious and was a mission craft) showing:

  • Extra Dark Sea Gray / Dark Slate Gray upper mainplane upper surfaces; Sky undersides and lower fuselage. Admittedly, the artwork doesn't have the same color values as used in Warpaint Series No 12

Air Power Modelling Vol I. Richard Caruana (artist) had a color drawing of 5L but with a different serial number (P4210) than Warpaint Series No. 12's 5L (P4221). Although the caption says this plane was at Taranto, P4210 was definitely not per Sturtivant's The Swordfish Story (the definitive work). Anyway, assuming the serial number is in error, this color drawing shows:

  • Dark Slate Grey/Dark Sea Gray upper mainplane upper surfaces; Sky undersides and lower fuselage.

Air Power Modelling Vol I. Richard Caruana (artist) had a color drawing of 4H (815 Squadron), serial K8257. This plane was at Taranto except the serial number was not - and it is not even listed in Sturtivant.  Color scheme was same as 5L/P4210 above

and lastly:

AeroMaster Fleet Air Arm Pt I shows4A (815 Squadron) with:

  • Extra Dark Sea Gray / Dark Slate Gray upper mainplane upper surfaces and matt black painted over Sky Grey lower surfaces and lower half of fuselage

None of the drawings illustrated the lower mainplane upper surfaces.  Depending on date, this would be either the same as the upper mainplane (post 26 Sep 1940) or Dark Sea Gray/Light Slate Gray (pre 26 Sep 1940)

So, what course of action to take?  The upper surfaces were fairly clear but lower surfaces of Taranto planes could have had three different lower surfaces/lower fuselage colors based on the above.

Fortunately, I happened upon the definitive resource:

Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings Atlantic and Mediterranean Theatres 1937-1941. Stuart Lloyd. 2008

This is a beautifully illustrated volume with color line drawings by Richard Caruana and a wealth of photos (some of remarkable coffee table quality) of Swordfish, Walrus, Skua, Roc, Martlet, Sea Gladiator, and Fulmar.

Lloyd goes through each of many directives from the Admiralty on camouflage schemes and then analyzes black and white photographs to determine the likely color represented in the printed tones based on understanding of how 1940s film reacted to UV light. 

So, here is what I learned:

  1. Wray's Squadron (815) was painted differently than Illustrious' other Squadron (819).  So much for thinking that squadrons of the same marque would be painted the same on the same carrier (!)
  2. On p.77 Lloyd states that when embarked on Illustrious, 815 Squadron was painted in Scheme S.1.E. -- Extra dark sea gray/dark slate grey upper wing; light slate gray / dark sea gray on lower wing, sky grey lower surfaces/fuselage sky gray overpainted with black.  However, based on photo evidence, Caruana does his line drawing with extra dark sea gray/dark slate gray extending all the way down the fuselage sides and black on wing undersides and presumably fuselage underside.  
  3. Admiralty order 1719 26 Sep 1940 which defined the camouflage scheme for FAA aircraft allows for under surfaces to be matt black for operational requirements. Lloyd states this is the first written confirmation that 815 Squadron had black undersides.
  4. On p. 114, Lloyd states definitively that 815 Squadron were painted with black undersides and fuselage sides and that this scheme was carried forward to Taranto.  This contradicts the Caruana drawing which did not have black on the fuselage sides.  A photo caption repeats this for a Swordfish on Illustrious but the photo seems to support Caruana's drawing
  5. On p. 116 and enlarged on back cover, there is a fairly clear photo of two 815 Squadron planes on Illustrious in October 1940 where Lloyd states "..dark  under-surfaces from weathered distemper applied to fuselage and under-surfaces.."  The demarcation between upper fuselage camouflage and lower fuselage dark is a straight line; not wavy.

Conclusion:

The Aeromaster line drawing is perhaps closest to the photo taken closest to 11 November 1940 although their black is too black given the photo evidence.  The Caruana line drawing of 815 Squadron was done for a August 1940 photo and seems to have been superseded by repainting two months later. 

Lloyd also goes into great detail on roundels and fin flashes but that's a different story than this one here.

 Note: As the photos and line drawings are all copyrighted material, I'm reluctant to post them here.  But for anyone wanting to do an 815 Squadron plane at Taranto, you can short circuit your research and just use Lloyd's book.  For that matter, any FAA plane pre 1941 - go for Lloyd's book. 

cropredy

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by philp on Sunday, June 12, 2011 1:19 PM

Sorry to revive an old thread but wonder if you finished your build?

Also, I have volunteered to do a Taranto version for a GB and am looking for inspiration so any new info you acquired is greatly appreciated.

Phil Peterson IPMS #8739 Join the Map http://www.frappr.com/finescalemodeler
  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by cropredy on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 12:16 AM

Phil --

Well, the Frog Swordfish is almost completed with (only) the complex 1/72 tail rigging left to be done. I decided to do a diorama base of an Illustrious deck fragment complete with torpedo trolley and a few deck crew in 'action' poses.  This has slowed things down quite a bit. 

As for your Taranto GB, I wish you all the best.  I think I have read/own every book on Taranto (in English) plus the two memoirs of Swordfish pilots who were at Taranto. I have quite a few books on the Swordfish as well.

As for the serial number, I decided on P4064. This was built in 1939 and the only thing else known about it was that it was written off April 5, 1941 as part of 815 Sqn.  Thus, it was plausibly at Taranto and the lack of any other data meant that it wasn't confirmed somewhere else at the same time.  This wouldn't stand up in court but was good enough for me.

Perhaps you should do a Maryland, one of the planes that did recon on Taranto before and after.  Of course, no paeans were ever written about the Maryland nor is it likely to appear in any WW II commemorative flyovers.

If I ever finish this project, I'm moving onto the 1/400 HMS Illustrious from Heller.

cropredy

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: USA
Posted by philp on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:51 AM

Eric,

Thanks for the data.  It is a Swordfish GB and I have always wanted to do a Taranto bird and a Bismark one.  Really interested in one of the planes with the black undersides.  Got to find some additional markings for one of these.

A dio sounds good.  Hope you get it done.

Phil Peterson IPMS #8739 Join the Map http://www.frappr.com/finescalemodeler
  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by cropredy on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:17 AM

Phil -- I highly recommend Fleet Air Arm Camouflage and Markings - http://www.amazon.co.uk/Fleet-Air-Camouflage-Markings-Mediterranean/dp/1905414080 for details on the dark undersides used by 815 Sqn

 

 

cropredy

  • Member since
    November 2005
Posted by Anonymous on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 2:46 PM

"Note: As the photos and line drawings are all copyrighted material, I'm reluctant to post them here.  But for anyone wanting to do an 815 Squadron plane at Taranto, you can short circuit your research and just use Lloyd's book.  For that matter, any FAA plane pre 1941 - go for Lloyd's book. "

 

I really wish you would reconsider and post the pics.  Under the current law it is legal to post the pics for informational or educational purposes, which is what we would be doing with them.  I am doing a RoG 72nd Swordfish and have been lacking in good refs for the Taranto Raid... 

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by cropredy on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:22 PM

Another source for 815 Sqn at Taranto is the following decal sheet -- Aeromaster Fleet Air Arm Pt I decal set.  

As for Lloyd's book -- the author went to a lot of trouble to research Fleet Air Arm camouflage and produced the definitive work.  In my opinion, he deserves support through purchase of his book (and I don't know him at all so I have no vested business or personal interest).  There are two reasonably priced copies here

 

Note the review here.

 

cropredy

  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by cropredy on Monday, September 19, 2011 11:50 PM

Swordfish is completed. Full story can be found here in three successive posts:

1 - /forums/p/75307/1491625.aspx#1491625
2 - /forums/p/75307/1491840.aspx#1491840
3 - /forums/p/75307/1492604.aspx#1492604

cropredy

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