Also making some progress on my B-17

Hammer,

The pictures I have found of the G's they don't have the "firing step" that was in earlier models.   

Here is a shot of a new "G" and no steps. 

Picture of my B-17 F with the "firing step" you mentioned.

Also the plywood you mentioned and show in pictures of of the restored B-17 are for pads, which you can see stacked on the right side of the ball turrent, for the crew members to sit comfortably during flights to and from Air Shows.   

No worries B-17 Guy.  I've seen the same photos of the B-17B with NMF interior and have also seen the later B-17G's also with NMF interior.  However, aluminum is so corrosive in a salt water environment that I don't have any trouble believing the photos I've seen that show B-17E's and F's with non-NMF interiors.  I never use IPMS as my reference points.  I go to books and images on the internet containing photos that I am sure are not of restored a/c.  There are plenty of instances of photos that clearly do not show NMF interiors in the waist gunner position.  I'm still not sure that the B-17B photo we've all seen before isn't just a publicity shot photographed at the Boeing factory.

I dont know then. I dont want to argue, i'm just saying that from what I've learned since I've started modeling and taking it a bit more serious as far as research goes. Interior green all over is not correct as seen in most of the warbird forts, and most people on these boards point out not using the warbirds as refference for color. And damn near all the interior pics I see on B-17s are NMF except where there is sounsproofing or in the flight deck and radio room. Bomb bays are either NG or NMF. And IPMS is not the end all, be all on B-17 colors. See my post about that in the B-17 group build. There are tons and tons of pics on the web, google image "B-17 interior".

But I take issue with the comment on the shark finned Forts having painted interiors.  Not  so. 

Well, don't shoot the messenger..  IPMS put that info out about early Forts,  and I wasn't able to confirm or deny it, but I passed it along anyway...  As to where they got it, I dunno... It's a moot-issue for this thread anyway..

I'm searching for more refs on the Shark-finned Forts to check, but since they aren't exactly what I'd call my favorite variants, it might be a little slower coming..  There're a couple books up at the city library that I'm check into as well as more internet research...

dcaponeII

Thanks for all the detailed feedback.  I've always been partial to olive drab over light grey instead of NMF.

Don

No sweat... Like I said, I like doing the research, and the B-17 is at the top of my list of "things to hunt things up about", lol..

As for camo'ed Forts vs NMF, you an' me both, Don..  Having grown up with 12 O'Clock High, ( I still watch it on weeknights at 0300 every Mon-Fri on "MeTV", right after Combat! )  they just flat look better, plus the OD/NG finish seems to lend itself better to weathering & combat damage than NMF does... Dunno why, just happens to be so, lol..

Hans von Hammer

Sorry it took so long to reply.. My wife showed up a couple hours ago with a new puppy for me... Guess that she thought we didn't have enough critters with sharp teeth designed to tear up meat (and more importantly, styrene !) Then I got side-tracked again, and din't get back to this until today, lol..

You're good to go, DC..

 

Anyway..

I was talking about the interior equipment set-up of "909"...   

Interior color should be a natural metal finish on a WWII B-17 vs restored one.

While true about a large number of the Boeing-built G's being unpainted inside the waist (presumably because the guinners didn't have any glare issues there),  there are plenty of references out there showing the interiors of the waist and Radio compartment in bronze green or OD in other manufacturers' , like Vega and Douglas' B-17Fs and early block Gs...  

The Control Cabins of the B-17s were generally painted in Bronze Green (or a variation thereof, depending on the manufacturer-Boeing, Douglas, or Vega)...  In USAAF-speak,  "Control Cabins" in the Fort are as follows: The bombardier/nav-cabin, flight-deck area to include the entire area behind the pilots (counting the top turret and flight engineer postions) all the way back the bomb-bay bulkhead, and also the radio room, & its bulkheads. The bulkhead doors were varnished plywood as well, but some Radio Operators did some "personalizing" in there..  At least one B-17 Radio Operator painted "Where Angels and Generals Fear to Tread" on the doors (seen it as well on the exterior of the waist hatch (and not just on "12 O'Clock  High" on "Picadilly Lilly") Floors were unpainted, varnished plywood with non-skid mats... 

The bomb-bay was to be painted with Yellow or Green ZC since this area was exposed to the elements both on the ground and in the air), but I've seen a small number of unpainted bomb bays, too.. 

 Aft of the radio room, the fuselage interiors of many early-production B-17s (the "Shark-finned Forts) were painted Zinc Chromate Yellow. Later versions of the aircraft, both camouflaged as well as natural metal-finished, were often left in bare metal with Zinc Chromate Yellow or Zinc Chromate Green bulkheads and stringer/longerons, but there were a large number completely painted as well...

I also have it on good authority that the Fs and some Gs had bronze green waist-interiors. BTW, that authority I mentioned is former USAAF 1LT Bill Runnels, bombardier on  "Hell's Angels" (B-17F-BO 41-24577, with pilot and aircraft commander, Captain Irl Baldwin )... 

Bill was instrumental in the final restoration and repaint of  the CAF's  "Texas Raiders" back in the mid-90s, supplying many war-time B-17 photos and also plans & drawings of various systems and sub-systems, (which allowed the CAF's Gulf Coast Wing to claim the only B-17 with an operational ball-turret in the USA) and his mission logs... 

And on 13 May 1943,  "Hell's Angels" became the first 8th Air Force B-17 to complete 25 combat missions. (Not to be confused with "Hell's Angel", a NMF B-17G)...  Unlike "Memphis Belle", she didn't go back to the States after completing 25 missions, but continued to fly combat with another crew until 13 December 1943 when she completed her 48th and final combat mission.

He also flew as bombardier of "Hell's Angels II", and several other B-17s... According to him, he flew in a number of B-17s, both Fs and Gs, that had painted waist-interiors.  (He wound up on a lot of cross-country ferry flights, while awaiting his own orders to go overseas)

 

Regarding "Hell's Angels" fate... On 13 December 1943, after she had completed 48 combat missions, she was designated a "War-weary" and retired from combat... Shortly thereafter she was flown back to the States and rejoined  members of the Capt Baldwin crew, went on a "morale boosting tour" of war production plants. 

Then, sadly, the inevitable happened... The efin' Army Air Force, in its "wisdom", decided that  "Hell's Angels", B-17F. serial number #41-24577 was surplus, so it was dismantled for scrap in 1947, the bassiges.....

On 7 January 1944, by a vote of group and squadron commanders, "Hell's Angels" became the name of the 303rd Bomb Group with "Might in Flight" being retained as the Group motto. Inactivated nad reactivated several times, with aircraft that started with the B-17, then the B-29 and KB-29, and ended with the B-47 and KC-97 Stratotanker in 1960 and deactivated at Davis-Monthan AFB (we all know what happens to unwanted aircraft at THAT evil place).. Then in 1987, changing to the BGM-109G Ground-Launched Cruise Missile (GLCM, pronouned, "Glick-em") until 1988, when it was finally deactivated for good, it appears...  

 

 

Well, that's enough for now.. I just thought I'd throw some more info  (and a few thoughts too,) out there to allow anyone else that's wanting to do a B-17F/G interior so that they would have an easy ref to look up if they bookmark this thread..

Sorry for jackin' your thread, DC...  I just get a little long-winded with replies at times, lol.. 

 

 

 

(Anyone else notice that a "109G" finally took the wing down?)

 

I agree totally with your info about "Hell's Angels" and the "Memphis Belle" myth.  The latest issue of Warbirds International with an article of the restoration of "Memphis Belle" repeats the myth.  But I take issue with the comment on the shark finned Forts having painted interiors.  Not  so.  Take a look at the movie "Air Force" which used B's and there is a color photo of a WG behind a bug-eyed NMF waist position in a B or a Y1B-17 on the WW2 In Color website.  But don't use the cockpit shown in "Air Force" as fact as that was not a B-17 cockpit.

Thanks for all the detailed feedback.  As for the unit the a/c is from.  I've not given it a thought.  I've got several decal sets to choose from and I'll decide as the build progresses.  I've always been partial to olive drab over light grey instead of NMF.

Don

One more thing about 909 and modeling, makes it confusing to those who base their research off of the restored version of 909 and trying to claim it to be the original version

That's easy to rectify.. Only one (1) of the restored B-17s flying in the USA  was ever in combat, with the sole combat veteran being a B-17G named "Chuckie"..,

"Chuckie", a Vega-built B-17G, which belongs to the Virginia Military Aviation Museum now, was named after the pilot's wife, and flew pathfinder missions, with the (then) top secret BTO radar installed in place of the ball turret..

I really like this paint scheme..

But it alot of cases there were many variations of field modification and what not on the 17, the adding of cheek guns on early "G" models, flat plexi glass/astro dome, interior paint colors, exhaust cover panel, antenna locations and type, top turret height and shape, radio room upper glass setup, floor board setup around the ball turret, waiste gun location and style used, tail gunner style (standard/cheyenne turret) ....

Two of my uncles, Stan and Ronnie, were tail gunners in B-17s.. They both, even though they were in different Bomb Groups (91st for Ronnie, Stan was in the 379th).. Both modified their tail positions (Old style) by using cut-up B-2 jackets and pants and lining the tail compartment with them, fleece-side out...  When Stan assigned to a new bomber, a G this time with the Cheyenne tail, he made sure he ripped out all the fleece from the old bird, lol..

I plan on adding this detail to my replacement Fort  for the B-17 GB...  I haven't decided on the Bomb Group yet, but those Yellow Tails of the 447th BG are really an eye-grabber..

Given any thought to what unit your Fort's from, DC?

No complaints here on the build, yes there were many color variations of the 17 which can make them a pain sometimes to do a model of if you try to be accurate to a particular aircraft and its nose art. DC keep up the good work on the 17! She is a beauty!

One more thing about 909 and modeling, makes it confusing to those who base their research off of the restored version of 909 and trying to claim it to be the original version and how it was painted. Changes were made on the restored version compared to the original (which the original was declared scrap even though it flew back to the states being one of the most flown missions in a 17 during the war and survive... WTF USAAF????) .

But it alot of cases there were many variations of field modification and what not on the 17, the adding of cheek guns on early "G" models, flat plexi glass/astro dome, interior paint colors, exhaust cover panel, antenna locations and type, top turret height and shape, radio room upper glass setup, floor board setup around the ball turret, waiste gun location and style used, tail gunner style (standard/cheyenne turret) ....

Phew theres the short list for yah...

This makes the research part fun in a build, lol!

Sorry it took so long to reply.. My wife showed up a couple hours ago with a new puppy for me... Guess that she thought we didn't have enough critters with sharp teeth designed to tear up meat (and more importantly, styrene !) Then I got side-tracked again, and din't get back to this until today, lol..

You're good to go, DC..

Anyway..

I was talking about the interior equipment set-up of "909"...   

Interior color should be a natural metal finish on a WWII B-17 vs restored one.

While true about a large number of the Boeing-built G's being unpainted inside the waist (presumably because the guinners didn't have any glare issues there),  there are plenty of references out there showing the interiors of the waist and Radio compartment in bronze green or OD in other manufacturers' , like Vega and Douglas' B-17Fs and early block Gs...  

The Control Cabins of the B-17s were generally painted in Bronze Green (or a variation thereof, depending on the manufacturer-Boeing, Douglas, or Vega)...  In USAAF-speak,  "Control Cabins" in the Fort are as follows: The bombardier/nav-cabin, flight-deck area to include the entire area behind the pilots (counting the top turret and flight engineer postions) all the way back the bomb-bay bulkhead, and also the radio room, & its bulkheads. The bulkhead doors were varnished plywood as well, but some Radio Operators did some "personalizing" in there..  At least one B-17 Radio Operator painted "Where Angels and Generals Fear to Tread" on the doors (seen it as well on the exterior of the waist hatch (and not just on "12 O'Clock  High" on "Picadilly Lilly") Floors were unpainted, varnished plywood with non-skid mats... 

The bomb-bay was to be painted with Yellow or Green ZC since this area was exposed to the elements both on the ground and in the air), but I've seen a small number of unpainted bomb bays, too.. 

 Aft of the radio room, the fuselage interiors of many early-production B-17s (the "Shark-finned Forts) were painted Zinc Chromate Yellow. Later versions of the aircraft, both camouflaged as well as natural metal-finished, were often left in bare metal with Zinc Chromate Yellow or Zinc Chromate Green bulkheads and stringer/longerons, but there were a large number completely painted as well...

I also have it on good authority that the Fs and some Gs had bronze green waist-interiors. BTW, that authority I mentioned is former USAAF 1LT Bill Runnels, bombardier on  "Hell's Angels" (B-17F-BO 41-24577, with pilot and aircraft commander, Captain Irl Baldwin )... 

Bill was instrumental in the final restoration and repaint of  the CAF's  "Texas Raiders" back in the mid-90s, supplying many war-time B-17 photos and also plans & drawings of various systems and sub-systems, (which allowed the CAF's Gulf Coast Wing to claim the only B-17 with an operational ball-turret in the USA) and his mission logs... 

And on 13 May 1943,  "Hell's Angels" became the first 8th Air Force B-17 to complete 25 combat missions. (Not to be confused with "Hell's Angel", a NMF B-17G)...  Unlike "Memphis Belle", she didn't go back to the States after completing 25 missions, but continued to fly combat with another crew until 13 December 1943 when she completed her 48th and final combat mission.

He also flew as bombardier of "Hell's Angels II", and several other B-17s... According to him, he flew in a number of B-17s, both Fs and Gs, that had painted waist-interiors.  (He wound up on a lot of cross-country ferry flights, while awaiting his own orders to go overseas)

Regarding "Hell's Angels" fate... On 13 December 1943, after she had completed 48 combat missions, she was designated a "War-weary" and retired from combat... Shortly thereafter she was flown back to the States and rejoined  members of the Capt Baldwin crew, went on a "morale boosting tour" of war production plants. 

Then, sadly, the inevitable happened... The efin' Army Air Force, in its "wisdom", decided that  "Hell's Angels", B-17F. serial number #41-24577 was surplus, so it was dismantled for scrap in 1947, the bassiges.....

On 7 January 1944, by a vote of group and squadron commanders, "Hell's Angels" became the name of the 303rd Bomb Group with "Might in Flight" being retained as the Group motto. Inactivated nad reactivated several times, with aircraft that started with the B-17, then the B-29 and KB-29, and ended with the B-47 and KC-97 Stratotanker in 1960 and deactivated at Davis-Monthan AFB (we all know what happens to unwanted aircraft at THAT evil place).. Then in 1987, changing to the BGM-109G Ground-Launched Cruise Missile (GLCM, pronouned, "Glick-em") until 1988, when it was finally deactivated for good, it appears...  

Well, that's enough for now.. I just thought I'd throw some more info  (and a few thoughts too,) out there to allow anyone else that's wanting to do a B-17F/G interior so that they would have an easy ref to look up if they bookmark this thread..

Sorry for jackin' your thread, DC...  I just get a little long-winded with replies at times, lol.. 

(Anyone else notice that a "109G" finally took the wing down?)

I find original photos that seem to run the gammut of colors for the interior.  B-17B and C with nothing but aluminum.  B-17Fs with darler colors (B&W photos) presumably Interior Green and/or Zinc Chromate Green.  I even found one that looks like a combination of green on the skin with aluminum formers.  As the aircraft switched to all NMF later in the war then I supect that the interiors went that way too but I'll keep it green for this early G with non-staggered waist gun positions.

I find original photos that seem to run the gammut of colors for the interior.  B-17B and C with nothing but aluminum.  B-17Fs with darler colors (B&E photos) presumably Interior Green and/or Zinc Chromate Green.  I even found one that looks like a combination of green on the skin with aluminum formers.  As the aircraft switched to all NMF later in the war then I supect that the interiors went that way too but I'll keep it green for this early G with non-staggered waist gun positions.

Agreed on NMF for the interior.

Only issue with 909 is that it is using a "newer" B-17 vs the original 909. The original 909 was not the staggered waste gun setup and it was also an early G model that had the cheek guns installed in the field which then the panels were painted sa slightly darker olive drab color. Interior color should be a natural metal finish on a WWII B-17 vs restored one. Just adding some info to that. Nice work though as it looks like a good representation of a restored 17! Atleast you will get to see all the hard work put in on the interior of doing a cutaway!

I think "909" is one of the "truer" restored B-17s... If you can't find period-photos, you really can't go wrong using "909" for refs, IMHO.. And being in the CAF, I kinda hate to admit that, lol..

Either way looks like the part.  I try and find period photos when I can but for the B-17 the internet is swamped by restoration photos (including the one with the shoulder harnesses flipped I hasten to add.  I've got some sandpaper with adhesive backing that ought to work well to finish off the floor boards.

They aren't flipped behind the seat here, though..

Like I said, I think you can get away with either configuration...  However, the armor plate would preclude flipping them behind the seats, which is why I think you see them more often on restored Warbirds, and they don't appear to be installed in operation Forts..

Here is why you don't see the shoulder harness in many photos.  When they are flipped to the back there isn't anything visible from the front.

Forgot to add that the extra floor panels might not fit on your model, since the waist on "909" is the staggered-window type..

Here's a better restoration of the waist position, as it's installed on "909"... 

The vertical pieces of plywood are are to allow the gunners to have more floor area, and a place to lay out and treat wounded crewmates..  It also shows the step and floor as it goes around the ball turret to gain access to the radio compartment...

Frankly, I think you can get away with either configuration, although it appears, based on my research, that shoulder harnesses were usually a restoration item, and were not installed on the original aircraft.  This comes from a SWAG though, based on looking at numerous photos of pilots or co-pilots in the cockpits, and a lack of visible shoulder harnesses, yet it's a 50-50 mix on the restored Warbirds.. "Liberty Belle" had them, "Texas Raiders" doesn't, "909" has them, none are installed in "Sentimental Journey", etc..

Here is a co-pilot seat without.

Pilot seat

The co-pilot picture also shows the quilted sound-proofing that was installed in the factory, but often removed after it went into combat, as it was a PITA to reinstall after repairs were made or battle-damaged..

Waist looking forward.

There should also be a firing step about four feet long below and centered on the guns, and that are about eight inches higher than the floor, which should be plywood with non-skid (on late-model Fs and all Gs) surfacing and the floor itself shoud be plywood (rather than the custom-made aluminum one shown here for location purposes only) and it also has a non-skid surface applied as well...

The kinda gruesome but practical purpose of the non-skid was to give better footing on a blood-covered floor..(we're talking about the reality of combat here).  Same thing was applied to the floor of the radio compartment in places..

Can't say for sure on the harnesses.  The original Monogram seats have them molded in place and the Eduard Seat belt set in the B-17 Big Ed set clearly call for them.  I'll change the armor plate ot OD.  Good piece of information.  Thanks.  I've started placing the floor boards already but they are just sprayed Interior Green at the moment.  I've not found any original photos of their appearance in the field so no detailing has been done yet.  I was surprised that the True Details set for the waist gunner positions didn't come with them in resin.

Yes Buddy I kow..it's not a Jordanian F-16 in ..ugh..1/72 scale.  I did buy the kit yesterday at least.  Interesting enough it was $1 less at Hobbytown than it would have been if I had ordered from Squadron.  Still no 1/72 scale kit is worth $27.

That's a helliva good job on those ammo-cans..

Are you gonna add the floor-baords in the wait-gunner's positions or leave 'em empty? Alos noticed that you left the armor-plates in ZC.. They were generally painted OD and installed after the interior work was completed, most times at the depot overseas, since they were shipped separately in most case, and installed once the aircraft had arrived in England or wherever... Most of the combat equipment (flex-mounts, guns & ammo, except for the turrets, etc)was left out for the ferry-flight from CONUS to the OCONUS Depot, so more fuel could be carried..

Your call though... Really wanna see this one when you're done!

You sure about the shoulder-harnesses on the pilo/co-pilot seats? None of my refs show anything there, just the lap-belts..

Not a big deal though, just wanted to ask ya if your references match that..

 'Course, this is a restored Fort, and that's easily identified with the modern, red fire extinguisher.. The WW2-era ones were generally un-painted and made of copper or brass...

dcaponeII

I'm hopeful that the large openings in the port fuselage will allow the details to continue to be seen after the fuselage is closed up.  Should be sometime this weekend if I get back to it. 

Good luck with that cut-away.. I mean it.. It would be a shame if the extra work was too hard to see..

Got to finish grading these gas processing mid-terms first though.

Phart and belch pathways through the listing and explainations of the body's expulsory functions? 

Funny, that doesn't look like a Jordanian F-16!  Great work as usual Donfather!

The wings will all be in place when she is finished.  I'll just have to cut off some of the tabs from the wings.  MicroWeld is pretty strong and will keep the wings in place with short tabs.

I've spent the day working on more details.  Seat belts are on.  Ammo belts in the front end are taking shape.

I also scratch built ammo boxes for the ball turret and redesigned the mount a bit to make it more similar to the real mount.  I figured the boxes will hide most of in with the fuselage buttoned up so I didn't worry about exactly duplicating the struts.

Here's an overall shot of the work.  Still much to do but I'm reasonably happy with how it looks with the fuselage closed up.

I got you now, I can see the port fuselage and the openings in the second pic above (those scratch built?).  So is the port wing going to be omitted too?