WW2 missiles

Uh, Wikipedia?

There were only a handful of guided weapons in WWII, and those were air to surface. They were usually guided by radio control by the bombardier in the launching aircraft who would keep visual track of a flare in the tail of the weapon and make corrections via a joystick. Guided air to air weapons did not appear until the 1950s.

look for something having to do with adding guidance to the 5 inch HPAG.  that is a rocket longer than the HVAR, and the HPAG is the motor body used in the creation of the Sidewinder by adding a guidance packet onto the HPAG. As Stik says, this was in the 1950's, post Panther (good Panther books show the HPAG and the HVAR mounting, not just one of them) and early Cougar and Cutlass days. VA-86 changed names to the Sidewinders by being one of the earliest Sidewinder missile carrying units, while equipped with the Cutlass.

I don't know of any "one stop" book or website with this info in it, though

Rex

Bocks Suv

I watch a lot of history channel and whenever they show footage of missiles/rockets fired from a WW2 or modern jet, I wonder how are they aimed or guided? When was guidance or heat-seeking added? I can't imagine a Hellcat et al hitting anything under combat conditions. I guess I could look it up, but I prefer not to have to wade thru a 50 page PDF. Insights and references welcome.

There were some experimental guided missiles and guided bombs, but these were radio controlled (like an R/C plane) and were actually flown by someone with a joystick controller in the aircraft that fired it, or another flying along. They sometimes had a flare on the back to make them easier to see as they "flew" it in.

Radar and IR guided weapons came along well after WWII.  I believe China Lake Naval Air Weapons Station developed the first IR guided missile in the 1950s, which became the AIM-9 Sidewinder.  There was an article about this in Finescale a few years back.

There were experiments underway on IR heat seekers, but they did not become operational during the war.  The only guided air-air and air-ground missiles were the radio guided ones mentioned above and wire guided missiles.  There are still many wire guided missiles in current inventories.  At the back of the missile is a small coil of wire, carefully packed. It is held on the outside, the inside open, and the wire departs through that open middle "core."  The Germans did have a wire guided air to air interceptor missile.  No Hellcats were fitted with guided missiles- those were all guided.  More of the guided missiles were fin stabilized than spin-stabilized.  Some had folding fins, some were fixed fins. Some had fins that spun the missile so they were finned spin-stabilized.

Radar guided missiles were also in development during the war, but I don't believe any were fired operationally.

dmk

Bocks Suv

I watch a lot of history channel and whenever they show footage of missiles/rockets fired from a WW2 or modern jet, I wonder how are they aimed or guided? When was guidance or heat-seeking added? I can't imagine a Hellcat et al hitting anything under combat conditions. I guess I could look it up, but I prefer not to have to wade thru a 50 page PDF. Insights and references welcome.

The standard rockets found on Fighters in WWII were spin stabilized and followed a ballistic trajectory just like a bullet. The only advantage these had over the machine guns and cannon on the aircraft was the rockets had a large exposive warhead. I've read that a full rack of these was equivalent to a USN Cruiser's broadside (which had what, 8 inch guns?), so they didn't have to be very accurate to be effective in most cases.

There were some experimental guided missiles and guided bombs, but these were radio controlled (like an R/C plane) and were actually flown by someone with a joystick controller in the aircraft that fired it, or another flying along. They sometimes had a flare on the back to make them easier to see as they "flew" it in.

Radar and IR guided weapons came along well after WWII.  I believe China Lake Naval Air Weapons Station developed the first IR guided missile in the 1950s, which became the AIM-9 Sidewinder.  There was an article about this in Finescale a few years back.

While we are on the subject, is there a difference between aircraft launched missiles and aircraft launched rockets?

All the common missiles seem to be rocket powered.  

Are missiles guided and rockets are not?

You pretty much have it, Dave.

There are exceptions that blur the lines a bit,,,,,,such as Walleye,,,,an AGM, Air to Ground Missile, that doesn't have a motor.  There were also guided rockets, I don't recall the designations, though. They were guided the same way as guided artillery shells, if I recall correctly, and may have been experimental only.

Rex

Well lets think of the basic definition of a missile- it is a projectile. It does not have to have a power source or guidance once launched... By definition. Now once you start going into ordnance types you start to get into various sub categories- guided glide weapons such as the Walleye, Paveway, & HoBos, plain old gravity dumb bombs, which by the basic definition of missile can be considered as such, powered weapons such as unguided air launched rockets of assorted types for both sir to air and air to ground use, and guided powered weapons be they command guided such as the Bullpup, Radar guided like Harpoon & Exocet, image guided ( either Imaging IR or TV) like the Maverick, or Laser Guided. There have even been millimeter wavelength seekers, a type of radar, and laser guidance seekers added to artillery rounds and their sub munitions. As well as rocket assisted projectiles to increase their range. We have come a long way from the missiles in the age of  the ancients whose missiles were launched by slings, bows, or catapults.

There were and are some aircraft launched missiles that are/were propelled with jet engines.  And the Bomarc was a surface to air missile that was jet powered.  I cannot recall any air to air missiles that were jet, but that doesn't mean there weren't any.  Also I think one could include guided bombs and guided glide weapons in the term "missile."

Don Stauffer

There were and are some aircraft launched missiles that are/were propelled with jet engines.  

I guess missile was the better term because it does exclude propulsion power from the equation.

Initially, rockets were unguided (thikbottle rockets, point in the general direction and saturate), whereas missiles were guided.  

In general, missiles are usually more complex, rockets less so.  I believe the big differentiation now is that missiles are capable of changing directions to chase a target, whereas rockets are not.

Groot

RobGroot4

Initially, rockets were unguided (thikbottle rockets, point in the general direction and saturate), whereas missiles were guided.  

In general, missiles are usually more complex, rockets less so.  I believe the big differentiation now is that missiles are capable of changing directions to chase a target, whereas rockets are not.

Groot

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

Tiny Tim and Zuni are both rockets. As are Genie, HVAR, HPAG and Mighty Mouse. Non of these are guided, they all depend on the pilot for aiming the aircraft and then firing them in the direction he wants them to go.

I think the guidance thing is mostly right. There are of course guided Zuni rockets.

dmk

the definition of missile has nothing to do with guidance.

 I'm not sure about that. Is a Tiny Tim a missile or a rocket?  How about a Zuni?

 If they aren't missiles, why not? They are both self propelled and carry an explosive warhead.

by definition those are missiles, but they are not guided missiles. They also can be called rocket projectiles. Now by US military nomenclature they are not referred to as missiles even though they fit that description by definition. 

Looks like anything I could add has already been said.  However!  My wife has a Master's in history, and while the History Chanel is good at providing general education and encouraging passion in history, I have seen her and my best friend, who is also has a Master's in history, laugh at the inaccuracies that plague many of their shows.

Raymond G

Looks like anything I could add has already been said.  However!  My wife has a Master's in history, and while the History Chanel is good at providing general education and encouraging passion in history, I have seen her and my best friend, who is also has a Master's in history, laugh at the inaccuracies that plague many of their shows.

word.

Me too.

Lets just say that History Channel ain't what it used to be... It has its moments, but...

The United States Navy had an air to surface missile or actually guide bomb.

Meet the BAT:

airandspace.si.edu/.../artifact.cfm

Tiny Tim:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19660030000

Luftwaffe test aam:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19710765000

Gargoyle:

http://airandspace.si.edu/collections/artifact.cfm?object=nasm_A19740642000

About 15 minutes at the Air space museum web site.

stikpusher

by definition those are missiles, but they are not guided missiles. They also can be called rocket projectiles. Now by US military nomenclature they are not referred to as missiles even though they fit that description by definition.

Right. I think what we are talking about here and what I meant when I asked the question, is the military definition. One could throw a rock and correctly call that a missile, but I meant in the context of military aircraft.

It seems in that context, a Maverick is a missile, while an HVAR is a rocket.

Actually, the term rocket means a type of propulsion.  It can be an adjective as in rocket propelled vehicle.  English has a tendency to make nouns out of other figures of speech, so the word by itself can mean the above phrase.  So in the loosest sense of the word, missile can mean any object traveling through the air, whether propelled by a motive force or merely by its momentum, or by gravity.  Usually  when speaking of a weapon or vehicle, it means unmanned.

One other thing about English, there is no official organization that rules on correct usage, unlike for French or a few other languages.  So there is no right or wrong meaning of a word.  Just in my lifetime I have seen the common meanings of many words change drastically!  Of course, I have lived for over three quarters of a century, so I have been around for awhile :-)

Don Stauffer

Actually, the term rocket means a type of propulsion.  It can be an adjective as in rocket propelled vehicle.  English has a tendency to make nouns out of other figures of speech, so the word by itself can mean the above phrase.  So in the loosest sense of the word, missile can mean any object traveling through the air, whether propelled by a motive force or merely by its momentum, or by gravity.  Usually  when speaking of a weapon or vehicle, it means unmanned.

AGM-65 stands for Air to Ground Missile (Model 65). AIM-9 stands for Air Intercept Missile (Model 9).

 HVAR stands for High Velocity Aerial Rocket. FFAR stands for Folding-Fin Aerial Rocket . Rocket is a noun here.  All the above are rocket powered.

Essentially we are talking about US military nomenclature, not literal definitions. The same folks who describe the M551 Sheridan as an Airborne Armored Reconnisence Vehicle, and not a light tank. In general US military vernacular rockets are unguided rocket projectiles while missiles are rocket or jet powered guided projectiles. And of course a few "glide bomb" types also fall into the AGM/missile category as well.

Follow this link to the golden land of designation systems:

http://www.designation-systems.net/usmilav/missiles.html

Mr Parsch usually doesn't miss things.

But, he doesn't have any listing for the HPAG carried by aircraft such as the Banhsee and Panther, and A-1 Skyraiders.  (HPAG=High Performance Air to Ground rocket)

You said you didn't want to wade through a 50 page pdf...but how about a 250+ page pdf ;)

I didn't figure anything I could add to this discussion, most everybody knows more than I. just thought I'd share this link to a source I used extensively in a research paper I did on precision strike weapons and how they fit into the concept of RMA this past spring. Though it only has a couple pages on WWII guided munitions (had to read actual books on those) if anybody is interested in the further development it's an interesting, though definitely not exhaustive, source.

www.csbaonline.org/.../six-decades-of-guided-munitions-and-battle-networks-progress-and-prospects

Another link to an event that happened during World War II with regards to operational guided munitions...

http://rohnasurvivors.org