F-14D Tomcat Paint scheme

 I am building the old Monogra F-14A Kit at the moment.  It has the following Federal Standard colour numbers in the painting guide:

Satin White    FS 17875      Underside, ailerons, Nose, rear control surface topside

Gray             FS 36440      Topside, and fuselage sides

Dark grey      FS36231        Walkway panel near cockpit

Light gray     FS 36373       a panel on each side of the wing roots

Light brown   FS 33613       nose cone

 There are a lot more generic colours but the FS number is not listed.  Hope this helps   

Wirraway, the Monogram paint guide is inaccurate, so don't go by that.

 This link shows the standard layout of the Tomcat TPS, along with the correct colors: http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-detail-colours.htm (second one down).

f14 tomcat freak wrote:

i can help u but which squadron are u deciding on ? as far as gear wells go definately go with flat white. nose and main gear should also be flat white.  let me know on which f-14d scheme you wish to do.  i have nearly every f-14 model from tamiya and hasegawa a/b/d variants.

I am not sure about the flat white paint on the gear and gear wells. Every modern naval aircraft's wells and gear I've ever seen up close were a satin or glossy white. It makes detection and cleanup of hydraulic leaks easier.

subfixer wrote:

f14 tomcat freak wrote: i can help u but which squadron are u deciding on ? as far as gear wells go definately go with flat white. nose and main gear should also be flat white.  let me know on which f-14d scheme you wish to do.  i have nearly every f-14 model from tamiya and hasegawa a/b/d variants. I am not sure about the flat white paint on the gear and gear wells. Every modern naval aircraft's wells and gear I've ever seen up close were a satin or glossy white. It makes detection and cleanup of hydraulic leaks easier.

Every aircraft I have seen has gloss white in the LDG wells.  They are painted with an epoxy gloss white so they will clean up easy.

Marc,here are your colors to use on a F-14 D they are FS 36320 Dark ghost grey,FS36375 light ghost grey these colors are the standards for all milatry aircarft in the U.S. arsenal.You will notice the there are some dark areas on the F-14 this is the dark grey.The majority of the aircarft is done in the light grey.

The F-14 A in its early years was painted,underside FS 37875 flat white,topside was FS 36231 dark gull grey.Digger

I forgot the radome tan FS33613

VF-142 never flew the D model. They flew the A and B. If you are modeling a low viz jet it depends on the timeframe for that model. The early A's for VF-142 used a white and Gloss Gull Grey scheme. Again it depends on what timeframe you are going for.

Check out the page listed below. I think all these are A models, but I am not sure.

http://www.anft.net/f-14/f14-photo-09.htm

These photos may or may not help. You need to use your references and go from there. Good luck and keep researching. Again 142 never flew the D model. But if you have the Hasegawa 1/48 scale D kit use the other ejection seats and the late A model chin pod and you have yourself a B kit anyway. Good luck.

Again color scheme depends on timeframe and aircraft number so be careful and check your references.

diggeraone wrote:

The F-14 A in its early years was painted,underside FS 37875 flat white,topside was FS 36231 dark gull grey.Digger I forgot the radome tan FS33613

Sorry, but that's not quite right.  The early Tomcats were Gloss Light Gull Gray FS 16440 over Gloss White FS 17875.  The insides of the cockpits were Dark Gull Gray.  I got to see some of the first fleet Tomcats back around 1975.  The gloss gull gray weathered to become more of a semi-gloss pretty quickly, but they were nice and shiney when they first came out of the paint shop.

Mark

Great to know that FSM keeps all these old posts for when totally clueless wingbats like me are trying to do an airplane model! Great info here!!!

the doog

Great to know that FSM keeps all these old posts for when totally clueless wingbats like me are trying to do an airplane model! Great info here!!!

No kidding!   That paint info will sure come in handy someday when I build a Tomcat.

Gary

the doog

Great to know that FSM keeps all these old posts for when totally clueless wingbats like me are trying to do an airplane model! Great info here!!!

Really!? I don't think i've seen you build a plane before Doog - i hope you post some pics when she's done.

cml

the doog

Great to know that FSM keeps all these old posts for when totally clueless wingbats like me are trying to do an airplane model! Great info here!!!

Really!? I don't think i've seen you build a plane before Doog - i hope you post some pics when she's done.

RedCorvette

Sorry, but that's not quite right.  The early Tomcats were Gloss Light Gull Gray FS 16440 over Gloss White FS 17875.  The insides of the cockpits were Dark Gull Gray.  I got to see some of the first fleet Tomcats back around 1975.  The gloss gull gray weathered to become more of a semi-gloss pretty quickly, but they were nice and shiney when they first came out of the paint shop.

This is right, and in the late 70s, the Tomcat went to overall 16440 without the white underside. The movie "The Final Countdown" shows the transition period for the two schemes pretty clearly. VF-84 in gray/white, VF-41 in overall gray on the Nimitz in 1980.

The overall gray scheme seems to have hung around on some birds into the late 80s (even in Desert Storm, some CAG birds at least were still overall 16440)

 BTW, just to throw this out there, 36440 is flat, 16440 is gloss but the same color. If you can't find 16440 in your favorite brand, 36440 with a gloss clear top coat such as Future or Glosscote will work just fine.

 TPS gets more complicated. Wasn't there something like three different TPS schemes for the F-14?

I have not yet come across any F-14s in the TPS with the 36495 bottom like on the early TPS for the A-7 and F-18. But there was some variety seen with the Gray Blue 35237 being used or not.

"36440 is flat, 16440 is gloss but the same color."

this line is what Dana Bell politely calls "a common misconception"

The truth is that until the 1984 GSA incident, 16440 and 36440 were actually different colors. After the GSA made a unilateral decision to simplify the colors, from 1984 on up, those colors got merged.

Right up until then, though, and  for quite a while afterwards, the colors remained separate.

This internet Meme is so entrenched, and supported by an IPMS pub (in error), that I don't think it is possible to get modelers to actually use the colors that applied during the time period being modeled, though.

Simple logic says the FS colors were at one time different from each other,,,,for over a decade, the old ANA system and the FS system existed side by side, with ANA colors cross-referencing fairly close to the FS colors

Just take a look at the Munsell numbers at the back of Monogram USN Color Guide Volume III or IV,,,,for any color you see that has a 1, 2, or 3 shade, you will see that the Munsell company themselves tested Elliot's cards and found a difference.

Rex

TarnShip

"36440 is flat, 16440 is gloss but the same color."

this line is what Dana Bell politely calls "a common misconception"

The truth is that until the 1984 GSA incident, 16440 and 36440 were actually different colors. After the GSA made a unilateral decision to simplify the colors, from 1984 on up, those colors got merged.

That's interesting. I was always under the impression that an FS starting with 1 meant gloss , starting with 3 meant flat, and the numbers after that signified the actual color.

I guess that's what I get for assuming that a govt specification would actually be specific.

Dave, it IS safe to assume that the government specification is actually more specific.

It is only the model industry that is using a less specific method, by saying that 16440, 26440 and 36440 are the same color. This IS true from 1984 on up,,,,but is NOT true before 1984.

before 1984, the colors were grouped on the same line as if they were houses, their addresses might match up as 6440 on each street in the same position on that street,,,with 1, 2, and 3 being the street names. In that example, it is easy to see that each house might be different, but, all be house number 6440.

The GSA, all by themselves, decided that all three of those houses would be the same from then on,,,,,with the small exception that  everyone on 1 street are now Glossy, everyone on 2 street being Semi-Glossy, and everyone 3 street being Non-Specular.

here is an example of the only site I know that uses the system as it existed before 1984

www.simmerspaintshop.com/page-RGB-colors-FS595B3.html

just go to Color Swatches on the left side, for the 1's and 2's of the FS colors

let's work with "X6081" for illustration purposes

16081 is hex color 555856

26081 is hex color 585B5B

36081 is hex color 5B5E5F

now, it is well known that a different Hex Color number means a different color,,,those three also have different Munsel numbers, and different RGB color codes,,,,,,they have different CIE-Lab numbers (the numbers used to MAKE military paints),,and lastly, different ANA numbers and color names

ALL sites that slam the colors together are based on the IPMS Guide's erroneous statement**, made by the GSA in 1984 that combined the colors.  (** or based on another site that previously followed the IPMS Guide, all those sites are tied together)

This works perfectly fine for any aircraft painted with new paints acquired after the 1984 error, and continues to this day.

But, it is Not correct for any aircraft painted before the 1984 wash-together of the colors. They were already painted and served in the previous "address system" colors,,,,,not the current system.

So, yes, in summary,,,,,,,,at one time, the FS specifications were more strict than today,,,not washed out like they are now.

This causes weird things like having to use modern 35045 for ANA 607 NS Sea Blue (taken right off the IPMS guide pages) when in realty, in the fifties and sixties, the color was 35042, which shared the last 4 digits of the "color address" with 15042, even though they were different colors. This happens because "everyone can see" that those two colors were different, so in 595B and C, they "must" have been different numbers,,,,,even though you can see the difference in the three on the same x5042 line in a real 1968 FS 595A booklet.

Rex

All you need to do is wonder this.

How did all those organizations get different numbers for what the IPMS claims was the same color?

It is very easy to see how the organizations that "got it wrong" for 30 years  did that,,,,,,they all fed off of the same two errors. If you use Dave Klaus' IPMS Guide and any FS after 1984 together,,,,,you CAN'T get the colors separated out as they should be. And the earliest editions of the IPMS Guide name the *exact edition* that he used, the "550 colors" edition, which is one of the earliest wash-out pubs.

Please disregard the above two posts. I know that anyone that already believes that "the internet is right" simply won't go look at that site I linked to. So, even though I have been asked to "not give up",,,,,I do give up.

I won't speak of historical fact on any model sites again,,,,,I should have known better from my first mentioning the TA-4B a while back.

(But, I will keep right on using 1968 FS colors instead of the IPMS colors for my own models)

Rex

TarnShip

Please disregard the above two posts. I know that anyone that already believes that "the internet is right" simply won't go look at that site I linked to. So, even though I have been asked to "not give up",,,,,I do give up.

I appreciate all the info you posted. The history behind this and the analogy is helpful and interesting knowledge wise.

But how do we as modelers solve this problem?

 If I know a Tomcat used FS 16440 in 1974 (the model I happen to be building right now actually), how do I find a Model Master enamel equivalent to that?

 Even if Testors had a 16440 (which they don't, they have a 36440), is this the pre- or post 1984 color?

Don't stress out and overthink it.  Even with your best efforts and skills a model is only going to a representation of the subject, never an exact duplicate.   Especially for paint when you factor in scale effect, variables in application, the type of primer/undercoat, the ambient lighting, etc.  Not that you can't come pretty close and still have a beautiful finished model. 

As far as 16440, it can be a difficult color to apply, and I've had some distinctly different results with it (no doubt due in large part to me, versus the paint).

FWIW, Testor Model Master offers both 16440 and 36440, at least in enamel. 

Mark

RedCorvette

FWIW, Testor Model Master offers both 16440 and 36440, at least in enamel. 

Nevermind, a Google search shows it as a spray can, plus the Acrylic MM in a bottle.

dmk

RedCorvette

FWIW, Testor Model Master offers both 16440 and 36440, at least in enamel. 

 Do you happen to know the Testors number for that?

Nevermind, a Google search shows it as a spray can, plus the Acrylic MM in a bottle.

I've got bottles of both 16440 and 36440 MM enamel sitting on my workbench.  I'm pretty sure both are still available.

Mark

Edit:

TES1729 = FS16440  Gloss Gull Gray

TES1730= FS36440   Flat Gull Gray

I made a paint chip of each, using model paints and matching them up to the 1968 booklet.

As for whether it is is pre or post 1984 color,,,,,,,1974 is pre-1984.

I build in that slight difference in colors, because I have pre-1972 USN sitting next to post-1972 USN (1972 is the year the top color switched from Flat to Gloss), and have mixed color jets during the transition.

It also helps me when using specialty decals like the middle scheme on this sheet  www.modelingmadness.com/.../am72186.htm

I don't have to fiddle around with Memes like "this weathered this way, that weathered that way" since I have that same photo,,,,,,,I know that the aircraft was originally painted in Flat and used in a USN unit, and then pulled out and only some places painted over in the new color (Gloss and different) when -122 was reactivated with the F-4J at Beaufort.

My collection is an attempt to preserve the markings and color history of the USN and USMC, and the USAF somewhat,,,,,,so when things like the change in the USAF insignia from two FS and one ANA color happen,,,,,my Insignia Red changes from ANA to FS along with it.

I am doing this because obviously the history is getting washed out, when it concerns the evolution of the colors.

Rex

oh, and for your other question,,,,,,,,We as modelers don't easily solve this problem,,,,,because at one time, we actually had the correct, different colors available. I solved it for me, and bought a near lifetime supply of the colors I will need,,,,,,,but those two paint companies are now sold out of the paints almost everywhere. (I did try to share the news with everyone)

But, due to 14,000 reviews of everything having to do with color accuracy of paints and decals, in the post 1984 world, paint formulas "evolved" to "fix the errors",,and decal companies picked up nicknames such as "Errormaster", while others got poor reviews based on colors and shut down or "evolved" in order to stay in business.  When MM first came out,,,,,,,the colors did differ based on sheen and color, but, then "1984 happened" (I just realized the joke concerning that year "1984")

RedCorvette

I've got bottles of both 16440 and 36440 MM enamel sitting on my workbench.  I'm pretty sure both are still available.

Mark

Edit:

TES1729 = FS16440  Gloss Gull Gray

TES1730= FS36440   Flat Gull Gray

Thanks for the Testors numbers. That helped narrow it down.

Unfortunately, it looks like TES1729 has been discontinued: 

http://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/tes/tes1729.htm

TarnShip

As for whether it is is pre or post 1984 color,,,,,,,1974 is pre-1984.

.

 My collection is an attempt to preserve the markings and color history of the USN and USMC, and the USAF somewhat,,,,,,so when things like the change in the USAF insignia from two FS and one ANA color happen,,,,,my Insignia Red changes from ANA to FS along with it.

I am doing this because obviously the history is getting washed out, when it concerns the evolution of the colors.