The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Hi Berny,

Those pictures you have posted of the ejection seats are great!  By chance do you have a picture of the back of the seat?

Ken

jimbot58

Ok, my phellow Phantom phanatic phans, I have a phew questions I need ask:

First of all, I couldn't resist this from Sprue Brothers:

On_it's_way!

Already a "Super Special", SB is also offering a further discount through the 20th for Hasegawa kits! A bargain is always good, yes? Now I'm looking over the kit instructions, (No! I don't have it yet! Look here!) but as usual, the HAS kits do not include weapons, pods, etc. It shows the attachment of the pylons under the wings, but no info otherwise. I know these were strictly an export, (looks like another Luftwaffe kit will someday join the "F" in progress!) so I need to know if they do get loaded with anything?

The second question concerns walkways-every kit I have looked at either has supplied decals for them, or includes painting instructions to add them. However, if I look at Phantom photos, very seldom do you really see them actually used. What's the story there?

There are a couple of WIP photos, but I will update later with them!

Jim

 

Jim,

As far as I know, recon Phantoms don't carry ordnance. They do keep the pylons attached. I'd go with the 370gal fuel tanks on the outer pylons, or a 600 gallon centerline. I'm sure they would probably carry some type of ECM pod on the inner pylons if they went to war, but I don't know what types, and a lot of pics I've seen show the inner pylons empty.

Reminds my of a NATO recon competition that I read in a Tomcat book. They had aggressors to hassle the recon birds. Standard practice was to turn into the threat, and then keep on cookin'. The aggressor pilot got a surprise when the Tomkitty turned on him and shot him with a "Lima in the lips"! One air force general thought it was pretty cool, but the other folks weren't as happy!

Glenn

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Berny,

Those pictures you have posted of the ejection seats are great!  By chance do you have a picture of the back of the seat?

Ken

I have one but it isn't clear with the seat dolly blocking most of the view.  Nothing of any use can be seen. 

jimbot58

Ok, my phellow Phantom phanatic phans, I have a phew questions I need ask:

First of all, I couldn't resist this from Sprue Brothers:

On_it's_way!

Already a "Super Special", SB is also offering a further discount through the 20th for Hasegawa kits! A bargain is always good, yes? Now I'm looking over the kit instructions, (No! I don't have it yet! Look here!) but as usual, the HAS kits do not include weapons, pods, etc. It shows the attachment of the pylons under the wings, but no info otherwise. I know these were strictly an export, (looks like another Luftwaffe kit will someday join the "F" in progress!) so I need to know if they do get loaded with anything?

The second question concerns walkways-every kit I have looked at either has supplied decals for them, or includes painting instructions to add them. However, if I look at Phantom photos, very seldom do you really see them actually used. What's the story there?

There are a couple of WIP photos, but I will update later with them!

Jim

 

The only thing carried by the Photo Phantoms was an ECM pod, travel pod, and external tanks.

Painted walkways were found on Navy/Marine gull gray over white and early gull gray over white USAF F-4C aircraft.  They were painted on with an anti slip paint at the factory but on many field applied re-paints they were sometimes left off.  After the Navy went to towned down paint jobs they were not used.  The aircraft used by the USAF that were painted ADC Gray had the walkway marks applied.  On all other camo paint jobs if they were used they were painted the same as the surrounding color.

They served another purpose in acting as an anti glare to prevent light from reflecting from the top of the intake into the cockpit. 

berny13

Son Of Medicine Man:

Hi Berny,

Those pictures you have posted of the ejection seats are great!  By chance do you have a picture of the back of the seat?

Ken

 

I have one but it isn't clear with the seat dolly blocking most of the view.  Nothing of any use can be seen. 

Thanks for checking Berny.

I found some references to the Verlinden Lock On No. 8 publication, but the cheapest one I could find was $49 used.  I am constantly running into references to items that are no longer in production.  I wish I had started this hobby 10 years ago!

Ken

Yeh those images are great.

I didn't get much done today.  I am trying to get over yet another little virus my Daughter coughed all over me..  So I haven't had the ambition to do much at all today.  It looks like the old Phantom C from Revell is going to be a write off.  I spent about 20 minutes this morning trying to repair the damage to the cockpit assembly from trying to remove it from the malformed fuselage half.  To put it bluntly, it looks like heII.  The edge is all torn up and it's just not going to be presentable.  So I will be concentrating on the Hasegawa FGR.2 until I can scrounge up enough to replace it. 

I was looking at some older R/M Phantom J kits.  Mostly the MIG Ace ones in 1/48.  I've never built one so I don't know if they are worth the $25.00 average price of them with shipping.  I am not too happy with that J model at this point.  If and when Revell sends me the replacement fuselage pieces, I may just paint th inside of the canopy black and make it a target drone.

I really hope this coming week is better than the last one...  Excuse me now, I am going to go and try to get rid of a super migraine.

Rich

berny13

 

Son Of Medicine Man:

 

Hi Berny,

Those pictures you have posted of the ejection seats are great!  By chance do you have a picture of the back of the seat?

Ken

 

 

I have one but it isn't clear with the seat dolly blocking most of the view.  Nothing of any use can be seen. 

Hey guys, Thanks for the answers to my questions. I did do some research and found one source that was quoted as saying that the Israeli RF-4E's were capable of carrying Sidewinders as they did not believe in the U.S. motto of "Alone, Unarmed, and Unafraid" for recon aircraft. I read a bit about recon's over Vietnam and that really sounds like it was a crappy deal! Sending those planes in with no arms, and no escorts into very heavily defended territory!

Sparrowhyperion

Yes the Monogram C kit.  Kit 5859.  Its length, but it's just kind of weird.  I usually glue large pieces like this by doing a spot/tack joint at the back, lining up the vertical stabilizer.  Then I line up the rest of it and glue into place.  The back went on great, the tail section lined up like a dream, then I glued the rest of it and tried to put it together.  It lined up beautifully, until I got to the section just behind the cockpit, just at the forward part of the wing route area.  Then  one side was longer than the other.  Not by much, but by enough (maybe 1 to 2 millimeters) to totally mess up the entire cockpit area along the bottom of the plane and the nose section top and bottom.  I have the parts ordered (Fuselage helves), so I'll have to wait and see how long they take to get to me.  I am still not happy with the cockpit.  It has some remaining CA on one side where I tack welded it in and for some odd reason, my debonder isn't taking it off.    If I can get a new battery for my camera this week, I will send up some images.

Rich

How much is salvageable from your kit.  Do you need only the fuselage halves and cockpiot tub, or do you need other parts as well?  How about the seats, inst panel or other cockpit parts?  The reason I am asking is I can send you what you need and when you get replacements from Revell you can send them to me. 

Thanks for the offer, but I am pretty sure it's a write off.  I used a combination of Testors black bottle, Tamiya orange top and Great Planes Pro CA to put it together.  Tearing everything apart demolished a lot of the cockpit.  I do not think Revell will send me the rest of the parts.  I had to argue a bit just to get the fuselage halves.

I am watching a couple of Revell and Monogram kits on eBay.  I don't suppose you ever put together the Monogram F-4J Mg Aces kit?  I'm wondering how similar it is to the C kit.  I am also watching an open box 1/32 Revell kit.  But I don't really like the way it includes a Single engine and just a cap for the second one.

Thanks

Rich

berny13

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Yes the Monogram C kit.  Kit 5859.  Its length, but it's just kind of weird.  I usually glue large pieces like this by doing a spot/tack joint at the back, lining up the vertical stabilizer.  Then I line up the rest of it and glue into place.  The back went on great, the tail section lined up like a dream, then I glued the rest of it and tried to put it together.  It lined up beautifully, until I got to the section just behind the cockpit, just at the forward part of the wing route area.  Then  one side was longer than the other.  Not by much, but by enough (maybe 1 to 2 millimeters) to totally mess up the entire cockpit area along the bottom of the plane and the nose section top and bottom.  I have the parts ordered (Fuselage helves), so I'll have to wait and see how long they take to get to me.  I am still not happy with the cockpit.  It has some remaining CA on one side where I tack welded it in and for some odd reason, my debonder isn't taking it off.    If I can get a new battery for my camera this week, I will send up some images.

Rich

 

 

How much is salvageable from your kit.  Do you need only the fuselage halves and cockpiot tub, or do you need other parts as well?  How about the seats, inst panel or other cockpit parts?  The reason I am asking is I can send you what you need and when you get replacements from Revell you can send them to me. 

What the heck Rich.  I will probably never build the kit as I have six in my collection.  Let me know what parts you need and I'll send them to you.  As for the F-4J kit, it doesn't have the C/D chin dome and has launch hooks molded into the lower wing. 

That sounds like the old 1/32 Revell F-4 kit from the 70's and not very accurate.  It will take a lot of work to turn it into a good looking model.  They are becoming collector items now and are not being built. 

Hmmm...  Well, if It means breaking up a kit, I just hate doing that.  The problem is I can't salvage any of the parts in the cockpit..  They are too thoroughly glued in.  I already tried taking out the RO console (back seat) and it snapped in half.  So I would need just about all of the cockpit parts, as well as decals for the control panels.  Plus I have no idea if and when the parts might show up from Revell.  It really ticks me off.  That cockpit was the best one I have been able to do since my aneurysm.  Now it's pretty much bent and broken scrap.  Would you consider selling me the kit you have?  and if so, how much would you want for it?   The ones on eBay are all going over the $20 mark with the shipping, my wife is going to strangle me if I spend that much and get caught.  (already over my $20/mo limit) LOL..

Thanks for the info on the J.  I guess the molded in launch hooks probably limit your selection of underwing stores on that kit.

The guy has some images he put up of the 1/32 kit.  I see what you mean.  I don't really think that one is worth the effort.

Rich

berny13

What the heck Rich.  I will probably never build the kit as I have six in my collection.  Let me know what parts you need and I'll send them to you.  As for the F-4J kit, it doesn't have the C/D chin dome and has launch hooks molded into the lower wing. 

That sounds like the old 1/32 Revell F-4 kit from the 70's and not very accurate.  It will take a lot of work to turn it into a good looking model.  They are becoming collector items now and are not being built. 

I'm in.  Accurate Miniatures 1/72  VMFA-333 Shamrocks

berny13

What the heck Rich.  I will probably never build the kit as I have six in my collection.  Let me know what parts you need and I'll send them to you.  As for the F-4J kit, it doesn't have the C/D chin dome and has launch hooks molded into the lower wing. 

That sounds like the old 1/32 Revell F-4 kit from the 70's and not very accurate.  It will take a lot of work to turn it into a good looking model.  They are becoming collector items now and are not being built. 

Gosh Berny, now you tell me!

Alan Bussie has mine, #4754, for sale for $110!

You know Berny, Rich's story got me to thinking about ripping my build back basics, and luckily it is still a go.

Seeing as how the nose is removed, I am weighing whether or not to build the original Immelmann RF-4E version.  Unfortunately, the decals are curled, and you may have seen how they turned out in the cockpit shots, not too snappy. I'm concerned I'll end up with the problems El Taino had, but without the requisite skills to fix them. I'm handy with a razor saw, but decals have never been my forte.

Dominc

Okay Rhino-Plasty addicts, here's my weekend's worth:

Hairline cracks, and MEK only propagated them:

Sorry, the Macro focus is fuzzier than my memory:

Here's the wing assembly, same area, from inside:

Those saw marks were to relieve compression which in a beam relieves tension on the opposite side, theoretically. Here's more of the wing assembly:

See that big 1/8" thick reinforcement, that was a couple hours cutting and fitting:

Here are a couple of views of the spars, I coated the inside with a plastic spray to reinforce the thin plastic, and painted the inside silver to make it opaque, it was almost see-through in some spots!:

See those little wedges in the left-side bulkhead? That is so this Revel kit approximates the Whitman area ruling that gave the F-4 its 'hips. Mind you, it's no-where near scale, or as accurate as Tamiya's version.

I got the 'split n wedge' idea from a ship-wright at Newport News - he was building an aircraft carrier on an episode from the Military Channel program, but it also works for styrene.

Hmmm...enough room for afterburners....

Here's the lumber I 'sawed' for re-lining. I use strips to get better conformity to the curves, but also a 24hr evolution per strip to allow drying and prevent softening the plastic:

Oh well; at least this kit will help hide some of the builder's shortcomings! The cockpit is out, and the nose looks pretty good given it's been cut off!

I'll sand, prime, and re-scribe the wings now that they are back-to-flat, so in a way finding those cracks may have helped over all.

Rich, the kit you have is 85-5859 and the kits I have are 80-4583 so none of the parts will work.  Yours is the original Revell kit and mine is the original Monogram kit.  From what I can find out the Revell kit is their 1/32 scale reduced down to 1/48 scale and suffers the same problems of their larger kit.  The Monogram kit has raised cockpit detail and doesn't use decals.  It looks like it is in Revells hands now or you could use what is left in your spare parts collection.

Sparrowhyperion

Thanks for the offer, but I am pretty sure it's a write off.  I used a combination of Testors black bottle, Tamiya orange top and Great Planes Pro CA to put it together.  Tearing everything apart demolished a lot of the cockpit.  I do not think Revell will send me the rest of the parts.  I had to argue a bit just to get the fuselage halves.

I am watching a couple of Revell and Monogram kits on eBay.  I don't suppose you ever put together the Monogram F-4J Mg Aces kit?  I'm wondering how similar it is to the C kit.  I am also watching an open box 1/32 Revell kit.  But I don't really like the way it includes a Single engine and just a cap for the second one.

Thanks

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Yes the Monogram C kit.  Kit 5859.  Its length, but it's just kind of weird.  I usually glue large pieces like this by doing a spot/tack joint at the back, lining up the vertical stabilizer.  Then I line up the rest of it and glue into place.  The back went on great, the tail section lined up like a dream, then I glued the rest of it and tried to put it together.  It lined up beautifully, until I got to the section just behind the cockpit, just at the forward part of the wing route area.  Then  one side was longer than the other.  Not by much, but by enough (maybe 1 to 2 millimeters) to totally mess up the entire cockpit area along the bottom of the plane and the nose section top and bottom.  I have the parts ordered (Fuselage helves), so I'll have to wait and see how long they take to get to me.  I am still not happy with the cockpit.  It has some remaining CA on one side where I tack welded it in and for some odd reason, my debonder isn't taking it off.    If I can get a new battery for my camera this week, I will send up some images.

Rich

 

 

How much is salvageable from your kit.  Do you need only the fuselage halves and cockpiot tub, or do you need other parts as well?  How about the seats, inst panel or other cockpit parts?  The reason I am asking is I can send you what you need and when you get replacements from Revell you can send them to me. 

 

 

Yeah Rich, I agree that's not the kit for you, it is not accurate, hence all the Rhino-Plasty, and I think they were made during an oil-embargo, the plastic is incredibly thin for such a large kit. In some spots it is only 0.3 - 0.4 mm!

Of course if you decide you really need to be tormented or do penance, I will donate the engine I didn't install, but it won't include the 'cap' or tail feathers!

Wow what a week you had pal, hang in there, sometimes we end up back in boot-camp!

Dominic

Bockscar, you must have ten pounds of putty on that monster.  When you finish you will have the only twenty-five pound model in the bunch.     With how you are doing, it should turn out great. 

berny13

Bockscar, you must have ten pounds of putty on that monster.  When you finish you will have the only twenty-five pound model in the bunch.     With how you are doing, it should turn out great. 

Thanks Berny;

I forgot I had put a full oz of lead in the nose! I might need a full pound to balance it now!

I'll paint the decals with Micro Scale Decal Film and wet test, there may be an RF build in the future.

The gloss white paint on my kit still isn't dry.  Tomorrow I'll strip it down to bare plastic and do it again.  It could have been the paint was too old so I'll go by Hobby Lobby to see if they got the gray for the cockpit in and buy some fresh gloss white.  I sure hope I don't have to do this with every color of paint I plan on using.

I am pretty sure it's a Monogram kit.  It says Monogram on the box and I think it did on the inner wing surface before I sealed it up.  It does use raised panel detail as well as Decals to go over the panel.  Here is an image.

As you can see, this is pretty hosed, and this is the piece in the BEST shape out of the cockpit.  I'm just going to replace the kit.  argh..  It's not losing the kit that ticks me off, it's all the work wasted...  Thanks for offering to help anyways.

Rich

berny13

Rich, the kit you have is 85-5859 and the kits I have are 80-4583 so none of the parts will work.  Yours is the original Revell kit and mine is the original Monogram kit.  From what I can find out the Revell kit is their 1/32 scale reduced down to 1/48 scale and suffers the same problems of their larger kit.  The Monogram kit has raised cockpit detail and doesn't use decals.  It looks like it is in Revells hands now or you could use what is left in your spare parts collection.

Boot camp was less stressful than this last week or so...

Bockscar

 

 

 

Yeah Rich, I agree that's not the kit for you, it is not accurate, hence all the Rhino-Plasty, and I think they were made during an oil-embargo, the plastic is incredibly thin for such a large kit. In some spots it is only 0.3 - 0.4 mm!

Of course if you decide you really need to be tormented or do penance, I will donate the engine I didn't install, but it won't include the 'cap' or tail feathers!

Wow what a week you had pal, hang in there, sometimes we end up back in boot-camp!

Dominic

berny13

The gloss white paint on my kit still isn't dry.  Tomorrow I'll strip it down to bare plastic and do it again.  It could have been the paint was too old so I'll go by Hobby Lobby to see if they got the gray for the cockpit in and buy some fresh gloss white.  I sure hope I don't have to do this with every color of paint I plan on using.

How are you going to get the paint out of the wheel wells and speed brake wells.....Q-tips?

I'll bet it takes longer to clean the kit than the real thing.

Berny, I sure hope they don't give you anything from the same batch number.

Sparrowhyperion

Boot camp was less stressful than this last week or so...

 

 

Bockscar:

 

 

 

 

Yeah Rich, I agree that's not the kit for you, it is not accurate, hence all the Rhino-Plasty, and I think they were made during an oil-embargo, the plastic is incredibly thin for such a large kit. In some spots it is only 0.3 - 0.4 mm!

Of course if you decide you really need to be tormented or do penance, I will donate the engine I didn't install, but it won't include the 'cap' or tail feathers!

Wow what a week you had pal, hang in there, sometimes we end up back in boot-camp!

Dominic

 

 

After seeing that panel and hearing about your migraine, all I can say is that starting over might be a good idea, Rich.

I got the first reinforcement/reline strip glued into the wing assembly. I have a fan but can't take the fumes, so I'm calling it a week. The build is going to be slow as I figure out which lines to re-scribe, and which to leave raised. The over all lack of surface detail, and almost no cockpit detail, are making me wonder how much scratch I really want to put in.

Another problem with this kit is that the raised panel lines are very inconsistent as they vary in height and weight. Of course, no rivets either!

There's still a good chance you'll get finished before me Rich!

Looks like we both have a big job ahead of us.  I am going to bite the bullet and start the cockpit detailing on the FGR.2.  At this rate, I am going to need to go to 1/32 only if my eyes get much worse.  Just looking at that PE pack is giving me a headache worse than normal.  I am putting a couple of my other kit's on eBay to get enough to replace the R/M kit.  I just listed my 1/48 Lindberg Classic Series F-100.  I'll probably be putting a couple of my MIGs back up as well.

I doubt I will finish before you, since I don't have another kit to do but the Hasegawa now.. LOL. :)  I was looking at some of the rivet tools on eBay.  They look like more trouble than they are worth, but I have never used one so I can't say for sure.

On the other hand, I finished the cockpit for one of the other builds I am working on, so today wasn't a complete waste of time.

Rich

Bockscar

 

 

 

After seeing that panel and hearing about your migraine, all I can say is that starting over might be a good idea, Rich.

I got the first reinforcement/reline strip glued into the wing assembly. I have a fan but can't take the fumes, so I'm calling it a week. The build is going to be slow as I figure out which lines to re-scribe, and which to leave raised. The over all lack of surface detail, and almost no cockpit detail, are making me wonder how much scratch I really want to put in.

Another problem with this kit is that the raised panel lines are very inconsistent as they vary in height and weight. Of course, no rivets either!

There's still a good chance you'll get finished before me Rich!

 

 

 

On paint,I went to Home Despot today and picked up Flat black and gloss black in a 16 oz spray can for a buck  a can.I used it right out of the can to do my F-4's Radome and the paint is perfect!

Try their white!  For a buck what the hell?

I decanted some Krylon to test my airbrush..   Niiiiiccceeee.....  A heck of a lot cheaper than Model Master too.  I wish they made Krylon in more colors.. lol

Rascal 1957

On paint,I went to Home Despot today and picked up Flat black and gloss black in a 16 oz spray can for a buck  a can.I used it right out of the can to do my F-4's Radome and the paint is perfect!

Try their white!  For a buck what the hell?

I use enamel paint that comes in a spray can from Hobby Lobby.  It is gloss white and is displayed in their ceramic paint section.  I have found out it doesn't turn yellow with age the way model paints do.  Maybe I should get their smaller paint cans and not the large 16 oz size.  Their 16 oz can is about 1/4 the cost of a small bottle of Model Master paint and about as much for the spray can of MM gloss white.  I also get other colors that I can use in model building.  Too bad they dont sell FS colors.

Berny -- bummer about that white not drying. I had a similar experience about four years ago, a Humbrol red that wouldn't dry. Basically I left it to do its thing and it dried in about four days. I recently dipped into the same can by accident and nothing has changed (as if it would...) BIN!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

PS: May I congratulate the Rhinoplastic surgeons here on their phanatical perseverence with older, difficult  models. GO GUYS!

Hi all,

I made a little progress tonight on my Fujimi F-4F. I've been busy with a lot of RL stuff, and a few days ago completed my M110 for Have Gun, Will Travel, so now it's time to divide my time among the other three builds I had hoped to have done this month (fat chance of that...)

I worked on the joints for the Phantom and I must say that all my fiddling to correct the fit of the forward fuselage may have compromised the fit around the intakes. The joints seem just not as accurate as I might have hoped for. Ah well, nearly there... When the canopy is on and masked I think I might use a primer coat on this one to explore the joint work and check for lines that need rescribing.

Cheers, M/TB379

Thunderbird, can I use this badge I made since none of the others is an RAF plane and I'm doing a FGR.2?

It's the exact plane I am doing.