The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

oortiz10

Great stuff Berny!

So that begs the question, how is the Navy style C/L pylon different that the USAF style?  What did it look like?  Any pics showing the difference?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I'd better get it right the first time or I know you'll call me out on it later.

Cheers,

-O

 

To be on the safe side, I am going to send you the Air Force style centerline and outboard pylons and Navy style outboard and centerline pylons.  From the photograph Navy style pylons, were used on the inboard and outboard stations so unless anyone can come up with more detailed pictures, who is to say the Navy style wasn't used on the centerline as well.  I would assume the Navy style was used.

After you get the pylons you should tell the difference from Air Force/Navy type.  If you still have problems I am just a click away.

OBTW, I have never charged nor will I ever charge anyone for sending them parts, decals, or any modeling related item.  It is just my way of helping another modeler.  As we say many times on this forum, "Pay it forward". 

O, that is just about the coolest F-4C pic I've seen in years

I did check to be sure, that's a Block 23 production F-4C (F-4C-23-MC), so, don't let anyone tell you it's one of the "loaner F-4B's",,,,,,man, look at all those gunpods, lol

if one of you gets the chance, could you take side by side pics of the two service's style of pylons, specifically the C/L differences, but, I'm sure some others here could benefit from a pic of all three stations

here's the angle that Berney was talking about, it's a National Archives photo credit, so okay to share here

it shows the angle of the stores pylon, the tank pylon was integral with the tank, and mounted at 90 degrees ("normal", lol)

hope this helps you Air Force and Air Force derived versions modelers

Rex

I really wish my kit would get here.  I have no idea what loadout it's going to have.  I probably should have stuck with one of the easier versions but I don't have any RAF jets in my done collection so I thought this would be a nice change..  $9 for two jars of paint, and I still havent found the correct light gray blue color for the bottom surfaces, $13 for decals and a total of $33 for the kit itself including shipping...  Argh, lucky I had some xmas money.. LOL

I'm trying to decide between 92 Squadron and 41 squadron.  The specs I found on the kit say it doesn't include sidewinders but Hasegawa has a car in the kit so you can get them.  I'm going to use the centerline SUU23 gun pod instead of the recon pod.

I don't suppose anyone has any sidewinders with the correct pylons hanging around in the spares pile...  lol.  You would think they would include them for what they charge for their kits.

Rich

TarnShip

O, that is just about the coolest F-4C pic I've seen in years

I did check to be sure, that's a Block 23 production F-4C (F-4C-23-MC), so, don't let anyone tell you it's one of the "loaner F-4B's",,,,,,man, look at all those gunpods, lol

if one of you gets the chance, could you take side by side pics of the two service's style of pylons, specifically the C/L differences, but, I'm sure some others here could benefit from a pic of all three stations

Berny & Rex,

Big thanks to both of you.  Berny, I appreciate your generosity.  You have my word that when the opportunity presents itself, I will pay it forward.

Rex, that pic clearly shows the pylon's angle.  It will be a big help.  If someone doesn't beat me to it, once I get 'em, I'll be happy to post side-by-side pix showing the USAF & USN pylons.  Of course, since I'm not someone in the know, someone else may have to point out the differences (if they're not obvious); I'll just post the pix.

Again, thanks for the help gentlemen, unfortunately, I won't be able to start my Phantom any time soon.  (I'm glad this GB's a year long.)  At least I'll have all my ducks in a row when it does come time to start.

Cheers!

-O

Sparrowhyperion

 the correct pylons hanging around in the spares pile...  lol.  You would think they would include them for what they charge for their kits.

Rich

Lucky you cought me in a good mood today.  What type of Sidewinders do you need?  I'll check my spare parts and see if I have them along with the Launchers and send them to you, if I have them.

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That’s a problem since I haven’t got the kit in the mail yet, and the Hasegawa site has nothing on it.  I’m doing an RAF FGR.2 in the older Camo paint.  But I don’t know what the Hasegawa Pylons look like.  Can I get back to you when the kit arrives and I can see what it needs exactly?

Rich

berny13

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

 the correct pylons hanging around in the spares pile...  lol.  You would think they would include them for what they charge for their kits.

Rich

 

 

Lucky you cought me in a good mood today.  What type of Sidewinders do you need?  I'll check my spare parts and see if I have them along with the Launchers and send them to you, if I have them.

If anyone else is doing an RAF bird, I managed to find the light grey paint needed.  Its Humbrol and they have it in enamel and acrylic.  It's number 166.  I checked this through the BS number converted to it's FS number equivalent.  There is a seller on eBay who has it in stock in CA for $1.89 and $2.50 to ship.  he only has a couple left so if anyone needs it it's item number 200540063250.

haha, Rich, I was surfing around trying to find the color for you , it came back as Xtracolour # 15 RAF Light Aircraft Grey,,,but, you didn't need the XtraColour number

glad you found a match, though, I'll add it to the British notes in the F-4 file,,,,,,just so no one goes running around looking for it later (read that as me when I get to the RAF birds, lol)

O, thanks out to you and Berney, glad the pic helped some,,,,,,still clicking and looking at your post, wow

Rex

Glad I could help.  I have never had such a hard time tracking down a color before.. LOL.  Now I am biting my nails on this Anthem 155 I am watching on eBay.  It's only at $10.50 with under 3hrs to go.  If the great airbrush gods are willing, It will not go to high and I can finally get a decent one.

TarnShip

haha, Rich, I was surfing around trying to find the color for you , it came back as Xtracolour # 15 RAF Light Aircraft Grey,,,but, you didn't need the XtraColour number

glad you found a match, though, I'll add it to the British notes in the F-4 file,,,,,,just so no one goes running around looking for it later (read that as me when I get to the RAF birds, lol)

O, thanks out to you and Berney, glad the pic helped some,,,,,,still clicking and looking at your post, wow

Rex

Thanks, guys, there's heaps of valuable discussion going on here! Four days into the build and we're on page 5, this is going to be a monster thread!

Sidure -- you're added, great to see you again! Oddmanrush, you're updated!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

I'm not even close to starting my build yet, but this thread is really interesting, So I hope this is inspiring more Phantom Phreaks to join.

Dean

There is nothing at all in this entire world as frustrating as watching something for 5 days, then putting in a reasonable bid, and then getting sniped by 0.50 in the last 5 seconds.  What's worse is when it happens three times in a row.  That was pretty much the last 155 I could afford on eBay.  Now I'm going to have to find a used 150 or something.  Oh well.  This is the nature of eBay...  Now I'm off to fidn some Excedrin Migraine and do a bit of work on my time killer build (F86.)  I need some sanding to get my nerves unjangled.  Night all.

Rich

Sparrowhyperion

Glad I could help.  I have never had such a hard time tracking down a color before.. LOL.  Now I am biting my nails on this Anthem 155 I am watching on eBay.  It's only at $10.50 with under 3hrs to go.  If the great airbrush gods are willing, It will not go to high and I can finally get a decent one.

 

 

TarnShip:

 

haha, Rich, I was surfing around trying to find the color for you , it came back as Xtracolour # 15 RAF Light Aircraft Grey,,,but, you didn't need the XtraColour number

glad you found a match, though, I'll add it to the British notes in the F-4 file,,,,,,just so no one goes running around looking for it later (read that as me when I get to the RAF birds, lol)

O, thanks out to you and Berney, glad the pic helped some,,,,,,still clicking and looking at your post, wow

Rex

 

 

Sparrowhyperion

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That’s a problem since I haven’t got the kit in the mail yet, and the Hasegawa site has nothing on it.  I’m doing an RAF FGR.2 in the older Camo paint.  But I don’t know what the Hasegawa Pylons look like.  Can I get back to you when the kit arrives and I can see what it needs exactly?

 

Rich 

The British Phantoms used the LAU-7/A launcher, the same launcher used by the U.S. Navy.  The common U.S. Air Force launcher was the AERO-7/B.  A set of AIM-9 launchers should be included with the kit.  The British Phantoms used the AIM-9D/H/L & M Missiles, the same as USN Phantoms.  I have what you need so if your kit doesn't have the correct equipment, let me know. 

Search and search and finally I find a decent photo of what I might like to do with the Italeri F-4. The black and gray diagram included with the kit made it hard to visualize. It also could give be a better idea of the colors used.The decals included are exactly these with the only difference being the numbers. Kit supplies 37+77

Duh....me forget to include picture.....

jimbot58

Search and search and finally I find a decent photo of what I might like to do with the Italeri F-4. The black and gray diagram included with the kit made it hard to visualize. It also could give be a better idea of the colors used.The decals included are exactly these with the only difference being the numbers. Kit supplies 37+77

Duh....me forget to include picture.....

That is one nice looking Phantom.  Does the decals include all of the panel markings like the picture?  I noticed it doesn't have the stab beef up plate seen on most Phantoms.

jimbot58

Search and search and finally I find a decent photo of what I might like to do with the Italeri F-4. The black and gray diagram included with the kit made it hard to visualize. It also could give be a better idea of the colors used.The decals included are exactly these with the only difference being the numbers. Kit supplies 37+77

Duh....me forget to include picture.....

That is a sweet looking aircraft!

Ken

geez, Berney, what a soup, eh?

(props feet up on coffee table, hands everyone a beverage of their choice, cradles coffee mug in both hands)

Your stab wedge plate comment is what just made me realize why there has never been a "truly complete" modeling book done on all the Phantom variants (as opposed to a book on the real thing). So many versions, and then so many variations of each version. Any complete book would have to be 200 pages of hardbound, and even if everything printed so far about the real jets was used, something would get missed.

I just read a thread somewhere, can't remember where, talking about the Wedge plate being a running change,  and older birds getting it added as they went through rework,,,,but, can't recall where it was. (oh, I just remembered one thing, it was about the E's)

The Naval based aircraft never had them, even though they are in almost every kit,,,,,,,so, I have no clue when or if any of the non USAF operators got them, or when. I just did a quick thumb-thru of "Spirit", and looking at the pics and dates, I can't see any logical "after this date, all AF derived aircraft had them", or anything like that

all I can tell, it's no on the USN, USMC, FAA, RAF,,,,,,,looks like no on the RAAF, but yes on the F-4F ICE, and the Japanese planes, and very variable on the USAF,,,,,C's and RF's started without them,,,,but, the EF-4C's had them,,,,,,etc

and that is an angle that is usually obscured in a lot of inflight shots

"look at the pics" is all I can come up with on Wedge plates

hmmm, cup's empty, time for a refill,,,,,,,talk later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rex

the "what a soup" was about the aircraft, not about people,,,,just to be clear

Famous scheme! Must do one of those myself! Do we have a solid paint reference for the Luft 70s regalia? M/TB379

I'm still a ways off from starting this build, but the thread got me so excited I had to look through the box to see what I have...and discovered what I'm missing.

So, I wanna build a -C with 15 gun pods hanging off the 5 pylons?  Yes.  Hase 1/48 -C?  Check.  15 resin gun pods?  Check.  White metal landing gear to support the weight?  Check.  Correct pylons?  On the way.  Markings?  In the mail.  Hmm...what am I missing? 

AW CRAP!  (Insert forehead slap here.)  I need 5 TERs! 

I know a couple of Hase's weapons sets include a pair, but that would mean I'd have to buy...(counting on fingers and toes)...3 sets!  At about $15 a pop, that'd be around 50 bucks for 5 little pieces.  That's close to what I've spent for the kit, resin, gear and decals!

My build might be postponed longer than I thought.  Hmm...I gotta come up with a plan...

-O

Omar -- scratchbuild them, or resin cast from one set...

M/TB379

O, you might only need 4 TERs and 1 MER,,,,,,looking at the shadow of the gun pods in your pic, they look to be 3 on the forward half of a MER,,,,,,,,,the set of three looks to be almost inline, or "too little behind" the inboard loads

I don't know if the AF did that, but, it was done in NavAir on occasion

I'm just going by the location a TER would be in if it were mounted on the suspension lugs,,,,,,that load looks shifted forward enough that it wouldn't be bolted up, lol

need to squint at it a bit more to really tell, though

Rex

oh, and you could make a pair of TERs, maybe, out of a MER,,,,,,,,that's how they were "invented" in the first place, by cutting the MER in half,,,,,,,,,just read that on the Replica in Scale blog a few days ago

berny13

 

jimbot58:

 

Search and search and finally I find a decent photo of what I might like to do with the Italeri F-4. The black and gray diagram included with the kit made it hard to visualize. It also could give be a better idea of the colors used.The decals included are exactly these with the only difference being the numbers. Kit supplies 37+77

Duh....me forget to include picture.....

 

 

That is one nice looking Phantom.  Does the decals include all of the panel markings like the picture?  I noticed it doesn't have the stab beef up plate seen on most Phantoms.

A scanned copy of the decal sheet. Appears that many data decals are included and instructions warn that they are recommended for experienced modelers only. Note that the white is there around the crosses-they just didn't show up on the scan.

I also have 2 sheets of Phantom data decals (AM) that I bought years ago as a close-out. As to the stab beef up plate....I guess I don't know a lot of Phantom lore to be sure of what that is....

Hi Thunderbolt379 and all Group Build members.

I wouldn't mind joining in the build with a Hasegawa 1/72 F-4S, if you dont mind an amateur hanging around.

Kit will be OOB (except AM payload), and painted and marked either OOB USS MIDWAY or else a "what if RNZAF ?".

Finish will be "as issued " as I'm no way  near ready for weathering.

May take a while before I get started as I want to get a cheap Skyhawk under my belt before I tackle the real deal and also do a bit of  research.

Cheers, Rough as Guts

Rough as Guts -- welcome to the build, I've added your project to the leader post on Page 1.

Cheers, Mike/TB379

Son Of Medicine Man

jimbot58:

Search and search and finally I find a decent photo of what I might like to do with the Italeri F-4. The black and gray diagram included with the kit made it hard to visualize. It also could give be a better idea of the colors used.The decals included are exactly these with the only difference being the numbers. Kit supplies 37+77

Duh....me forget to include picture.....

 

That is a sweet looking aircraft!

Ken

That's the scheme I had in mind when I started looking for a German phantom. Love it.

Thanks.  With any luck, it will show up today.

berny13

 

 

 

The British Phantoms used the LAU-7/A launcher, the same launcher used by the U.S. Navy.  The common U.S. Air Force launcher was the AERO-7/B.  A set of AIM-9 launchers should be included with the kit.  The British Phantoms used the AIM-9D/H/L & M Missiles, the same as USN Phantoms.  I have what you need so if your kit doesn't have the correct equipment, let me know. 

 

TarnShip

geez, Berney, what a soup, eh?

(props feet up on coffee table, hands everyone a beverage of their choice, cradles coffee mug in both hands)

Your stab wedge plate comment is what just made me realize why there has never been a "truly complete" modeling book done on all the Phantom variants (as opposed to a book on the real thing). So many versions, and then so many variations of each version. Any complete book would have to be 200 pages of hardbound, and even if everything printed so far about the real jets was used, something would get missed.

I just read a thread somewhere, can't remember where, talking about the Wedge plate being a running change,  and older birds getting it added as they went through rework,,,,but, can't recall where it was. (oh, I just remembered one thing, it was about the E's)

The Naval based aircraft never had them, even though they are in almost every kit,,,,,,,so, I have no clue when or if any of the non USAF operators got them, or when. I just did a quick thumb-thru of "Spirit", and looking at the pics and dates, I can't see any logical "after this date, all AF derived aircraft had them", or anything like that

all I can tell, it's no on the USN, USMC, FAA, RAF,,,,,,,looks like no on the RAAF, but yes on the F-4F ICE, and the Japanese planes, and very variable on the USAF,,,,,C's and RF's started without them,,,,but, the EF-4C's had them,,,,,,etc

and that is an angle that is usually obscured in a lot of inflight shots

"look at the pics" is all I can come up with on Wedge plates

hmmm, cup's empty, time for a refill,,,,,,,talk later,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Rex

the "what a soup" was about the aircraft, not about people,,,,just to be clear

The reason for the beef up plate was the stab torque box was cracking, right at the join area.  No cracks are allowed at all on the torque box.  A fast fix was to install the beef up plate at the joint to prevent flexing.  At about the same time MDD was producing the F-4J which had slots built on the leading edge of the stab.  The stab had the torque box reinforced out of thicker material so the beef up plate wasn't needed.  The new stab was also used on the F-4N and retro fitted to the F-4B.

MDD had so many of the "old" stabs they continued to use them on the F-4E even though that model had slots installed.  Eventually enough stabs with the heavy torque box was produced and slowely replaced the old type.  It would be impossible to say which aircraft had the old or new type.  The F-4C/D and RF-4C did not use the slotted stab so all of theirs would have the beef up plate.  The F-4E/G could be seen with and without the beef up plate, those without having the newer stab.

The beef up plates started to appear around the end of 1969.  By 1970/1971 almost all USAF jets had been modified by teams sent in from Depot to do the mod.  They could not be done at local level because a special jig had to be used for drilling the holes in the torque box. 

well, thanks, that does narrow it down a bit to only a couple of years "in transition"

same with the Navy on the B's, during some years after the J production started, and before the last new B was built, you'll see both types of Stab on a B,,,it wasn't unusual to see a mix of Stabs, Noses, and Tail tip ECM in the same squadron,,,,,ashore or on the cruise

that's why we can't now point to a squadron and say with authority "VF-32 had this config for it's Med cruise with F-4B's",,,,all we can do is say "15xxxx as pictured looked like this in May of 1972",,or whatever

another note for the AF file

I'm learning a lot in this thread about the camo side of the Phantom

Thank you

Rex

I found a website with some FS numbers for the Luftwaffe Norm 72 scheme. Hope this helps....

Glenn

http://www.amarc.dk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=28