The Official F-4 Phantom II Group Build 2011

Have started cockpit - this is a new league for me, 20+ pieces just in the pit in 1/72!! Thought I was going to crash and burn on step 1 but with a bit of fancy flying I've found clear sky

I see Son of Medicine Man has a busy looking cockpit, and cheers Berny13 for those pictures of the seats, very useful.

I was wondering about those panels on the back of the fuselage as to what they were. I also know now what those extra parts that are cemented to the back of the pylons. If I keep gaining knowledge, my brain may overload.

I wouldn't mind doing a RF version, I might have to go shopping......

Some more progress on Phamputty. I just about have the nose complete. I had to fabricate an IR sensor from one of the kit's Sidewinder missiles, some scrap plastic, and, of course, putty! It isn't exactly like I think it should be, but it's taken several attempts and it's about as good as I'm going to get. To promote additional pain in this build, I decided that the stabilizers were positioned too low as engineered, so I shoved some plastic in the holes, and am currently in the process of smoothing them out. Then the remount and some additional detailing for that area. I finally got the intake trunks on, and smoothed out w/super glue; lots of super glue.

Glenn

Thunderbolt379

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines.Cheers, Mike/TB379

Kelly Johson designed the cones for the F-104.  That was the first aircraft to use them. They went by several names, "Spikes", "Cones", and "Boundry Layer Air Defuser".  Who ever came up with that last one must have been an engineer.  By the time the YF-12/SR-71 was being designed shock wave cones had been in use for many years and were a proven design.  Kelly may not have designed the SR-71 cones but it was his idea first used on the F-104.

Thunderbolt379

Berny -- VF, that's most interesting, I had no idea. All these years I thought the V stood for vehicular, in the sense of aircraft appropriate for carrier use!

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines. GRIN -- not sure what an F-4F would become, but an F-4C could be a Cheesel, and an -E would be an Easel... But only really appropriate if they were all Weasels, which none of them were...

eatthis -- sure you can join! You have a selection there, just let me know which kit (or all of them?) you decide on (company, scale and Phantom variant) so I can make up the build schedule on p1!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

How's that, for at least 3 decades I thought it was Johnson's idea.

You see how important it is not to play second fiddle, the boss gets all the credit!

Almost like what one frustrated veteran P-47 pilot said "They give all the credit to the Mustang!"

Thanks for the intel Mike, moving forward I'll make sure Ben Rich gets the acknowledgement he earned.

Berny -- VF, that's most interesting, I had no idea. All these years I thought the V stood for vehicular, in the sense of aircraft appropriate for carrier use!

Bockscar --Accroding to Leo Janos's book on the Skunk Works, co-written as a biography of the late Ben Rich, who took over from Kelly Johnson in the late '70s, it was Ben Rich who designed the shockwave cones of the Blackbird's engines. GRIN -- not sure what an F-4F would become, but an F-4C could be a Cheesel, and an -E would be an Easel... But only really appropriate if they were all Weasels, which none of them were...

eatthis -- sure you can join! You have a selection there, just let me know which kit (or all of them?) you decide on (company, scale and Phantom variant) so I can make up the build schedule on p1!

Cheers, Mike/TB379

can i join please?

iv got a 1/48 scale cant remember who by lol

a 1/32 revell and a 1/32 tamiya f4j :)

TarnShip

Rich, instead of letting those covers stall you,,,,,why don't you cut out a couple of those doors from 5 thou plastic and pose them open?

I forget if you have a Naval or AF bird,,,,,but, for the Naval the doors are Insignia red inside the doors, with a red "well" around the cartridge frame,,and the actual photoflash frame is a gray, a brass color for the cartridges themselves,,,,I've never checked to see if the rows and columns are right though,,,,,,all I know is they are NOT right to cut them out and put under the doors on a Naval B or J for chaff/flares,,,,,,,,,and I plain don't know what the colors are for an AF bird

Rex

They are the same colors on the Air Force RF-4C and I am pretty sure they are the same color on all export versions.

Here is what they would look like closed.

The panel you see just forward of the star and bar is the RAT.  It was only on the left side and could be found only on the RF-4B/C, F-4B/C/D/N/J.  No other long nose Phantom had the RAT.

Rich, instead of letting those covers stall you,,,,,why don't you cut out a couple of those doors from 5 thou plastic and pose them open?

I forget if you have a Naval or AF bird,,,,,but, for the Naval the doors are Insignia red inside the doors, with a red "well" around the cartridge frame,,and the actual photoflash frame is a gray, a brass color for the cartridges themselves,,,,I've never checked to see if the rows and columns are right though,,,,,,all I know is they are NOT right to cut them out and put under the doors on a Naval B or J for chaff/flares,,,,,,,,,and I plain don't know what the colors are for an AF bird

Rex

Thanks Big Smitty, I have done a bit more digging and found that the first F-4 to shoot down a MiG (North Vietnam) ,was shot down itself and lost on the same flight.( This information may not be accurate)

I understand the sensitivity of digging up the past and have total respect for all servicemen that have been lost while serving their country. One of the reasons I enjoy military modeling is it is a way of remembering the sacrifice these men made and the valour with witch they served and trying to preserve a bit of history, even if it's just a talking point so the next generation may understand. Lest we forget

Cheers berny13, I was looking for an excuse to bust out the putty. I read earlier posts regarding a lost cover for Photo Flash Cartridges but assumed they were further forward on the fuselage.

Thanks also for explaining the VF / VA thing.

I'm afraid the only real knowledge in my nutshell pertains to the inner and outer workings of dairy cattle

-everything else I make up or pretend I know

How about a "Fleagle"  Like in that old kids show the Banana Splits. lol

Rich

Bockscar

 

berny13:

 

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

 

 

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

 

 

Any suggestions for the F-4F?

berny13

 

Sparrowhyperion:

 

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

 

 

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

Any suggestions for the F-4F?

berny13

 

Bockscar:

 

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

 

 

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

Thanks for that Bernie, I didn't know there was a part that moved. I heard that Kelly Johnson devised movable intake cones for the SR-71's engines, and apparently to keep the supersonic shock away from the turbine blades, didn't know you could do that with a plate.

Hey thanks also for decoding the acronyms as well, really helps build a picture.

Sparrowhyperion

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

 

Why not.  That way I can call the F-4D I am building a Diesel.  

Um Berny, Does that mean that my RAF bird being an "M" that I am building a "Measle" LOL

Rich

berny13

 

jimbot58:

 

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

 

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

I always wondered about those Bernie.  I thought it might be to reduce shockwaves, but I never thought of supersonic air in the engine and the possibility of a stall.  Thanks for the info!

berny13

 

Bockscar:

 

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

 

 

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

Sparrowhyperion

Yeh, I'm missing the covers to them on my Recon Bird.  Someone said they were the chaff dispensers.  My Recon Bird is 99% complete, but I can't finish it until the carpet monster decides to have pity on me and cough it up.  It's not a kit for this group build so I am not worrying about it now though.

 

Rich

 

Chaff and flare dispensers are located on the trailing edge of the inboard pylons on non Navy style pylons.  I don't think the Navy style pylons were capable of carrying them.  The ALE-40's were introduced around 1978 or so.  We got the idea from the Israeli Air Force which designed them for their F-4 aircraft around the mid 70's.

Yeh, I'm missing the covers to them on my Recon Bird.  Someone said they were the chaff dispensers.  My Recon Bird is 99% complete, but I can't finish it until the carpet monster decides to have pity on me and cough it up.  It's not a kit for this group build so I am not worrying about it now though.

Rich

Rough as guts

Today's question for the panel 

F-4S  Rear of fuselage, midway between exhaust cans and start of tail there is a panel on each side, covering 72 holes. Edit; as seen in Jimbot's 4th photo on page 29 I presume (wild guess)  this would be where chaff is fired from to prevent a missile strike? If so would the panel be jettisoned when the chaff is deployed ? On the Hasegawa kit it shows to install the covers but before I do I'd better check I'm not wasting an opportunity for extra detail, perhaps a carrier deck diorama servicing scene. I also wonder which way they would hinge?

I haven't noticed these before in my "Google research"

Or perhaps they are just servicing covers for some thingy-ma-jig?

Any ideas out there?

 

 

Rough as guts

Another question? In my research I found a statement from the USS Midway museum that one of her Phantoms claimed the first and also the last Mig kill of the Vietnam war. Can anyone here substantiate the story

And another ?, the initials VF on naval planes stands for what?  Very Fast?

Cheers, RAG.

RAG,

For your first question, this is straight from a documented source from a colleague of mine who maintains part of the history.navy.mil site:

"On 12 January 1973, LT V. T. Kovaleski (pilot) and LT J. A. Wise (RIO) of the Midway's VF-161 Chargers downed a North Vietnamese MiG-17 with an AIM-9 Sidewinder launched from their F-4B Phantom II. This was the last air-to-air kill of the Vietnam War."  Sorry I don't have any further documentation than that.  I checked via Wikipedia and it checks out on the USS Midway (CV-41) wiki page, but it doesn't cite any references.

Second question: VF stand for "Fighter Squadron".  USN/USMC non-helo squadrons use "V" for squadron, then "F" for fighter, "A" for attack (not really used much anymore", etc.  So with all the Super Bugs taking over both fighter and attack squadrons, you'll see things like "VFA-103" which would be FIghter/Attack Squadron 103.  Helo squadrons use an "H" instead of a "V".   

Rough as guts

Another question? In my research I found a statement from the USS Midway museum that one of her Phantoms claimed the first and also the last Mig kill of the Vietnam war. Can anyone here substantiate the story

And another ?, the initials VF on naval planes stands for what?  Very Fast?

Cheers, RAG.

The VF stands for "Heavier than air, fighter".  If it was VA it would mean "Heavier than air, attack"  That is a throw back when the Navy operated "Gas Bags" or blimps. 

Rough as guts

Today's question for the panel 

F-4S  Rear of fuselage, midway between exhaust cans and start of tail there is a panel on each side, covering 72 holes. Edit; as seen in Jimbot's 4th photo on page 29 I presume (wild guess)  this would be where chaff is fired from to prevent a missile strike? If so would the panel be jettisoned when the chaff is deployed ? On the Hasegawa kit it shows to install the covers but before I do I'd better check I'm not wasting an opportunity for extra detail, perhaps a carrier deck diorama servicing scene. I also wonder which way they would hinge?

I haven't noticed these before in my "Google research"

Or perhaps they are just servicing covers for some thingy-ma-jig?

Any ideas out there?

 

They are Photo Flash Cartridges and was used only on the RF-4B, RF-4C, RF-4E, and RF-4EJ.  For all other versions putty over the panels and smooth out with sandpaper.

jimbot58

berny13:

 

jimbot58:

 

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it.

 

Go right ahead.  From this day on, any one building the F-4G for the group build will refer to it as Geasel.  

Bockscar

Berny

I always thought those big axe like wedges on the inside and extending out along the fuselage were called 'splitters.' I was told they direct shock waves away from the intakes and fuselage. What did you guys call them, and what are they for?

Thanks

We just called them "Splitter Plates".  It was used to smooth out air flow and prevent shock waves from building up at Mach speeds.  There was the fixed splitter plate and just behind that was the first segment of the Vari Ramps.  That is the parts you see extending in front of the intakes.  Just inside of the intakes is the second segment vari ramp.  The second segment was perforated which allowed excess air to be vented overboard, exiting out of louvers located in the top and bottom if the intakes. 

At Mach speed the vari ramps would extend, closing off part off the intake to slow down supersonic air.  That prevents excessive back pressure from building up inside the intakes causing compressor stalls.  The ramps would start to extend at Mach .98 and would be fully extended at Mach 1.4.

Just inside the intakes on the outboard side is a "T" shaped probe called the "Pressure Temperature Sensor Probe" (PTSP).  The PTSP would measure pressure and temperature and send the data to the CADC (Central Air Data Computer), which would send a signal to the vari ramp controller, that controlled the vari ramps. 

Located inside the intakes, just forward of the engines was the Bell Mouth Ring.  At high Mach speeds it would slide forward (retract) allowing more air to be vented into the engine compartment.  This high speed air would then be vented overboard through the secondary AB exhaust nozzles generating more thrust.  It would start retracting at Mach 1.4 and be fully retracted at Mach 2+.

Another question? In my research I found a statement from the USS Midway museum that one of her Phantoms claimed the first and also the last Mig kill of the Vietnam war. Can anyone here substantiate the story

And another ?, the initials VF on naval planes stands for what?  Very Fast?

Cheers, RAG.

Today's question for the panel 

F-4S  Rear of fuselage, midway between exhaust cans and start of tail there is a panel on each side, covering 72 holes. Edit; as seen in Jimbot's 4th photo on page 29 I presume (wild guess)  this would be where chaff is fired from to prevent a missile strike? If so would the panel be jettisoned when the chaff is deployed ? On the Hasegawa kit it shows to install the covers but before I do I'd better check I'm not wasting an opportunity for extra detail, perhaps a carrier deck diorama servicing scene. I also wonder which way they would hinge?

I haven't noticed these before in my "Google research"

Or perhaps they are just servicing covers for some thingy-ma-jig?

Any ideas out there?

berny13

 

jimbot58:

 

Hello all! Tonight i spent some time doing fiddle work on the 'F' as I yet to pick up those fresh paints for the Geasle (I check my resources and decided I can afford it this week-stopping at LHS Monday evening!). I spent time drilling holes for attachment  points for drop tanks, pylons, and actuators. I also began removing extra antennas and so on. I saw that the kit instructions showed to remove those triangle reinforcement plates off the stabilators and began to shave away. I then noticed the painting guide still shows them! I went into panic mode thinking which is correct? I was past the point of no return! I jumped on the 'net and started google searching F-4F's for images, and wouldn't you know: the first 'F' I pulled up showed the plates! I then went through about another 2 dozen or so and couldn't find another! According to the ARC forum, they were found on a few F's but not many. Whew! All the rest of the photos, the plates were not present! Sometimes these 'One kit for all versions' can be a pain!

 

 

Those reinforcement plates are called "Beef Up Plates" or "Stab Wedges".  The official nomenclature is "Stiffener, Torquebox, Stabilizer".  Another official name for another item is "Slot, Fixed, Stabilizer, Leading Edge, Horizontal".   We just called them "Tear Drops".

The term "Geasel" was first used at Spangdahlm AB Germany,  I had just arrived at Spang and had to clear in, in a hurry as we were due an ORI.  I was assigned to the 81st TFS/AMU, a F-4G unit.  As a new arrival my task was to ride around with the unit maintenance officer so he could keep an eye on me and keep me out of trouble.  I saw a "G" rolling down the runway after landing and called ops and asked if they had received a squawk.  I used the word Geasel with my conversation with ops and the name kind of stuck.  From then on, every one started calling them Geasels.

At George AFB, CA, I was in the 35th TFTW, 20th TFTS.  When talking on the radio to maintenance control I used the term "That Geasel Outfit" referring to the 37th TFS also at George AFB.  That afternoon at the laugh in, the Wing King asked me if it was me that had called them that?  I told him yes it was, thinking I might be in trouble.  He said he liked the term and from then on he and others would call them that.

Before this group build is over, I'll have many of you calling out panel numbers, identifying controles in the cockpit, using maintenance terms to identify items, and speaking terms or words not known by the majority of people.  It is like having our own language.

I hope you will not mind if I used the Geasel term? I kind of like it. I'm kind of glad I decided to join the group. It's a great chance for those of us who are lucky to even see these aircraft from those like Berny13 who has had a bit more experience with these birds.

I did spend about an hour tonight finishing shaving off those plates, sanding smooth and scribing panel lines on just one. I remember when I was about 10 and finished off a whole model in about the same amount of time.....

"Before this group build is over, I'll have many of you calling out panel numbers, identifying controles in the cockpit, using maintenance terms to identify items, and speaking terms or words not known by the majority of people.  It is like having our own language."

Berny: Could I just get a free ride in one instead?

Glenn

Bockscar

mississippivol:

68GT,

I also want to welcome you to Rhinoplasty 2011! I have the same mold Revell kit you have, just one of the shorter nose birds. After building all these nice, new kits; I've had the pleasure to reacquaint myself with putty, superglue, and plastic shims! I had to buy a new tube of putty; first one in 8 years! I forgot how good Squadron White smells.

Remaking T.U.R.D.'s into masterpieces, cuz' they may be all we have left one day..WFCFRP!

Glenn

 

That's it Glenn;

It's not about the plastic, it's about the subject. We bend, literally, material until our artifacts help others to envision the original...(no wonder they gave Socrates hemlock, I just like Rhinos).

Remember that Howell guy on Gilligan's island, he always said: "Break off a piece and make it fit!"

Oh yeah, I like the sweet smell of MEK, and that's nothing, I love how it magically appears under my fingers when I am manually clamping stuff together. It's evil. If you even think about putting elastic bands around the T.U.R.D., the bands get scarred into the plastic even before you stretch them!

I'm using Testors putty for the final, I think it is about an 800 grit, which is great, but it uses acetone as a solvent. Krikey, at least I can smell MEK, but acetone is even more evil. Make sure you have really good ventilation guys, and use wet impliments.

I have water handy, and wet bounty/kim/shop towels to take away the dust. 

Inspite of the T.U.R.D. challenges "Chasing" the shape is well worth it.

Dominic

WFCFRP, T.U.R.D. Division, Office of Glue Fumes and Putty Dust

 

Couldn't agree more!

Glenn

Sparrowhyperion

This is getting better all the time.

I actually started mine today.  Not really worth a WIP image yet.  I have the resin seats adorned in their primary base color.  I  put down a semi-gloss black base to show the contrast between the 2 or 3 shades of Green on the seat better.  In this case, it is also the main color of the seat frame so it's the old 2 birds with one stone.  Thanks to those lovely Mk7 images that were sent up, I have a perfect painting guide.  Which is a good thing, since the paint guide that came with the seats is horrible...  I am planning to do a light wash with some flint gray today to highlight some of the detail bits of the frame.  I am working on the assumption that a "working" bird would not be exactly pristine so some paint wear and scratches are to be expected.  I will have to ask my Daughter to do some of the tiny stuff since I physically can't do it anymore.  Luckily she is becoming a great little artist.  The cockpit is going to be brush painted I think.

I did have one large hiccup which was luckily confined to a new tshirt I was wearing and some papers I had in a stack.  I was using my dremel on it's lowest setting with a T shaped piece of sprue in it to stir the Semi Gloss Black I had, since it had separated a little, and right in the middle of it, my Daughter's idiot cat jumped up on the desk and hit my arm.  I had the dremel in the paint and spinning at the time...  I think you can do the math from there...  Now I need to talk the Mrs into going out for some more semi gloss MM enamel.  Which is going to get me in trouble again.. lol  At least my Daughter offered to pay for the paint and the half can of thinner I had to use to clean up the mess, since it was her cat..  I declined... (If I had accepted, I know she would have been all upset.   Plus I am sucking up to the two of them since my Bday is just over a week away...   .) 

I'll post some images of the completed seats when I have them painted.  Oh..  I almost forgot...

I have not worked with resin parts before this so I was wondering if someone could tell me the best kind of cutoff wheel to use to remove the excess base material, and what speed to use?  I don't want to wreck the paint job on the seat or melt it.  Thanks.

Rich

Rich it seems funny now, though I bet it didn't make you laugh at the time. Is that kitty possessed, or maybe likes models more than the average cat?

Here's an early Happy Birthday Rich in case you don't mention it again, all the best in your model building endeavours!