The group build to end all group builds - THE GREAT WAR

jaw-dropping work!

1st... thanks or that.

As for the rest... NOW YOU TELL ME!  Someone on another forum mentioned...also after the fact, said the cabanes fit into notches in the mounts so they need to be perfect.  Why do I get the feeling I am going to be cussin' like a sailor soon.

I did sort of do way you said.  I ended up sanding some of the paint off and getting things lined up in the 2 sides of the fuselage.  Logically since the mount have the engine sitting square and the space behind the spinner is good I think I may be OK.

DoogsATX

Have crazy respect for Des and anybody with the cajones to PAINT THE WHOLE FRIGGIN' WING before attaching it.

Doogs, just be thankful you're not working with lozenge camo. The 'pup is looking real nice in spite of the lower wing issues. ....and to be honest, if you get the struts set up properly and all necessary tweaking done before attaching the upper wing, it actually goes quite smoothly.

Marc, jaw-dropping work! I should have chimed in earlier about the engine formers. What I did on my Alby was assemble them before any paint was applied anywhere, dry-fitted the assembly inside the fuselage, and taped the halves together while they set up. Made 'em tougher to paint down the road, but a breeze to install when the time came.

Rob, now I can see why you've opted for AM tracks!

gn, definitely looking forward to your build!

Slowly getting closer to buttoning up the fuselage. Need to put in the controls and wiring on the left side of the pit.

 The formers for the front of the fuselage that hold the engine mounts was a girl dog and a half.  If you look at the slots in the mounts and the notches in the formers as separate pieces you get a mental image that they will, or should, go together in a certain way.  They don't and it take some finagling and test fit, test fit and test fit again to get them just aligned so the engine will sit perfectly centered so the there will be an even space around the spinner.

Extra wiring was added for various cockpit controls and instrument.  The glass instrument faces and bezels are made wire wire wrapped around a punch the same size as the instrument decal to make a ring.  Then the same punch is used to make a clear plastic disk that will be a perfect fit in the ring.  Glue the ring to the panel, apply the decal then put the disk inside the ring.  A drop of future fills the space between the decal and disk making it crystal clear.

I put some work into the A7V - I'm well aware of the glaring inaccuracies in the interior, but I'm not too concerned about it as it won't be noticeable after the hull is all sealed up. I'm going to do some more work on the running gear before I call it a night, although I haven't quite decided how to deal with some of the issues in that area just yet ... I've seen the info on landships and have read a couple of other things on the net, but I'm open to any help or info you guys could contribute.

EBergerud

Des at WWI Aircraft had his "hiccup" on the WNW Pup joining the lower wing. Course you didn't have any trouble with the LA-5 birdcage that drove me bats: maybe you should be a surgeon. Plane is certainly looking nice.

Eric

I'll be honest, the lower wing is a shockingly poor fit. Seems like I'm encountering a lot of kits lately that just can't be bothered to provide decent, positive location of parts for even rudimentary test-fitting. 

Fortunately the Pup is working pretty well on faith. Things fit better once the preceding parts are locked down.

The fuselage still didn't really want to lay down flush with the wing, but a little Tenax and brute force go a long way (and would make me a terrible surgeon!).

Have crazy respect for Des and anybody with the cajones to PAINT THE WHOLE FRIGGIN' WING before attaching it. I am just not that confident in my abilities...but it also gave me a few options I guess Des didn't have (i.e. brute force + solvent).

Des at WWI Aircraft had his "hiccup" on the WNW Pup joining the lower wing. Course you didn't have any trouble with the LA-5 birdcage that drove me bats: maybe you should be a surgeon. Plane is certainly looking nice.

Eric

discordian... welcome aboard.  I've added you to the ever growing list.

Doogs, I am 2 pup-dates behind but day-um that's nice.

Rob, looking forward o seeing what you do with that.

DOOGS - That cockpit is excellent

MARC - Did you get those spark plugs gaped yet?

I dont build AC but I am tempted after seeing some of the work and detail you guys are starting to put in.  Keep up the good work.

JGERATIC1 - The figure is awesome!  The second wash on his mug really did it.  I really like the base and the name plate, looks great.

TD4438 - Great job on the MK I.  Did not realize it was 1/72, very nice.

SMEAGOL - Your little MK I is also very nice.  Two MK I's down, motivating me too start my IV soon.

Here is the long awaited sprue shot of the MK IV.

Not many parts in this kit but there will be a few corrections too make here and there.  Comes with four sprues and two additional track sprues.  The biggest down fall I see is the tracks.  Do not like them at all.

Thanks too you guys sending me that link with tracks for these things, I will be ordering a set for this build.  Updates will be coming in the next week or two, just going to try to finish up the Panzerjager GB i'm in.

Everyone keep up the good work.

Very nice job on the cockpit, and the wood sections of your Pup Doogs. Looks great.

Nate

That Pup looks ready to bark!!  Great work!!  The cockpit and wood struts really stand out!

Pupdate time!

She's now officially a monoplane!

Also finished the leather padding, I think.

One thing about this kit - actual fit is proving WAY better than test fitting. A lot of the pieces don't "hold" together very well, so it's very hard to test more than one piece at a time (the idea of taping up the whole basic plane give me chills). Thankfully, it's all fitting, and fitting well.

The only challenge so far is going to be the cowl, is having problems joining the rest of the plane over the engine. It's like the engine is protruding by 2mm too many. Need to decide if I want to try to mess with the mounting post, or just shave around the tops of the cylinders (which are invisible anyway).

Ooh - count me in for my first FSM forums group build.

I have an old Matchbox 1:76 Char b.1 bis/Renault FT-17 mini diorama kit.

The Char B1 is post WWI but I can do the FT-17 and diorama portions for this build and the Char B.1 after.

ruddratt, Thx for the link -  I have bookmarked it for future reference.  The D.III is pretty much same aircraft as the first mark, except for an extra 30hp and balanced ailerons and elavators.

regards,

Jack

Doogs, that's lookin' sweet! Definitely relieved that it came of without any damage to the build.

Jack, I found some nice pics of the D.III, but my knowledge of the differences between it and the D.I is not that great. Still, they may be of use to you. HTH.

http://www.wwi-models.org/Photos/AH/Pho_DIII/index.html

ruddratt

Doogs, hope you're havin' at the 'pup this weekend. Man, it's been ages is seems since I've been able to put an entire weekend into a build. Definitely looking forward to seeing some MAJOR pupdates !

Alas, I've mostly been plowing my time into the Achilles. Things been on my bench since February, and I'm kind of ready to get it done and snug in a display case. 

But...I did manage to pry the decklid off the Pup without breaking anything or scratching any of the wood grain away. Not easy! That thing had a grip on one of the cabane struts like nobody's business! Still, it let me paint up the leather padding.

Not quite done yet. That's the first pass and then the first pass with oils. Not sure what I want to hit it with next to give it that beat up leather texture. Maybe I need to go reread Marc's technique!

Well the two kits I'm considering is either the Phonix D.I or Fokker B.II so maybe if you can direct me to a website I can search for pics, that would be great.

regards,

Jack

Gentlemen, thanks much for your comments. They're worth a ton o' gold coming from modelers (and people) of your caliber. Glad you're likin' 'er so far.

Marc, that is seriously good work my friend. Ya gotta love that lead foil for the belts - IMO there's nothing better. Gotta go with Doogs about that seat - one of, if not the best one I've seen on these forums....and that engine, man, it's a killer all painted up!

Doogs, hope you're havin' at the 'pup this weekend. Man, it's been ages is seems since I've been able to put an entire weekend into a build. Definitely looking forward to seeing some MAJOR pupdates !

Jack, I've seen lots of photo references to the double loop method, both for structural cables and control cables. I can go dig up a few if you like.

Hi everyone, I'm glad to be able to put forth some food for thought in our group build.  I have about a dozen or so unbuilt bipes in my stash so hope to get at least one done while we are together here.  What I wrote in my previous entry, as well as what others post, does not necessarily mean that this is how something should be done.  They are just suggestions and is up to the individual to decide what works for them.  Thx go out to Doogs for pointing out with his example of the Black Arrow - there is always an exception to some general rule of thumb.

Btw guys, Marc, Doogs, ruddratt - your cockpits and engines are lookn sweet, very inspirational work.

I have a question about rigging.  Is the same method used to attach structural cables and control lines, or is there a  difference?  For example, would the double loop method be characteristic just for bracing?

regards,
Jack

Marc - that seat looks fan-friggin-tastic! LOVE the texture on the leather, and I'm now like triple kicking myself about forgetting to install the belts until too late.

Keep up the simply awesome work!

In Pup land - I closed up the fuselage last night! Also inadvertently attached the decklid. I was just doing a test-fit, but the way it snuggles in between the two cabane struts, it just found its place and stuck! Good news is, perfect fit. Bad news...now I have to paint the leather padding on the plane, AND I'm going to have to mask the whole deal when it comes time to paint the fuselage and lower wing.

I really get excited when parts become recognizably assemblies and get painted.

Here is a group of some of the sub-assemblies I am working on with a close up of the engine.  I am very pleased with the look of the spark plugs.

I used the buckles from the kit PE belts and made new straps from lead foil.  They are textured by rolled a round micro file back and forth.  The rest of the cockpit formers are dry so I can get the rest of that together soon.

Beautiful cockpit Mike! Can't wait to see the rest of the build.

Nate

Mike. Dear god, man. The bar is now being raised toward the outer planets of the solar system. That looks fantastic!

Also jealous of the PE bits on the Vickers gun (I'm assuming it's a Vickers?). Mine looks the same, but, I don't have an PE for it. I has a sad. Still, I've got some ideas for drilling out the barrel.

Jack - that's some interesting stuff! One thing I would note about there not being dirt like on AFVs...maybe not caked mud, no, but the archival pic of Black Arrow in the WnW Pup manual (the one where it's on its back) shows a very dirty dog. The fuselage looks like it's been dealing with some sun fading, but also like it got caked in dust and then left in the rain. Strange thing is, the undersides of the wings are squeaky clean. Shiny, even.

Brief Pupdate. Issues with the new house have been sorted out. Issues with the job have been sorted out (gave my notice Tuesday!). Family is gone to see the in-laws for the weekend. I'm planning to spend a ridiculous amount of time at the bench this weekend...so hopefully some Pup work will come of it.

Jeez Mike.  That has to be a real cockpit sitting on large planks, not Popsicle sticks.  And people joke about my giant penny  How long did it take you to paint the garage floor blue with the yellow grid?

Jack, thanks for that link.  Even with what I said about scale and fabric, I agree with what the say on that site about sometime you need to give the "impression" of things.  I really liked the look it had on the 9/24/08 model so I ordered a couple of the fabric sheets.  And nice discussion of lozenge application.

I suspect the green would not be the oil itself but caused by long term effects of oil and dirt on the surfaces.  I have seen numerous instances where after some oils, especially organic based oils will tend to cause corrosion to metals. Brass and copper type metals will especially start to develop a greenish tinge (called verdigris).

As to fabric staining I am not sure, but it could be due to other containments or just something else adding to the mix.

I've decided to weather the Camel pretty seriously.  I've looked at dozens of photos and they show dirty birds, but are indistinct because of age. There are a few films in color of either original or rotary engined replicas: the owner of one said his camel burned 13 pints of castor oil per hour - indeed the oil loss was 100% if the plane exhausted its fuel. There's a constant plume coming out from underneath the plane. I'd guess the color is a kind of oily brown - not black. (That makes things more interesting because there certainly appears to be darker soot around the top of the cowl in addition. And of course there's dust and grass stains.) Right now I'm thinking of something like a light brown with some varnish in it sprayed thinly over the lower part of the aircraft directly behind the engine (this includes the lower parts of the sides). Maybe some green in it. But films lie like bandits. Anyone work with anything like this stuff. The oil would be fresh and then ejected immediately as it's used - presumably darkened in the process. Would this stuff maybe be a little green? Dark brown, maybe even a very dark grey? I could use any of these colors based on the films I've seen. I know this isn't science, but I'd like to get this as right as I can.

And yea, lovely cockpit.

Eric

how on earth

how did you do that it could quite possibly be the best ww1 plane cockpit ever!!!

Jack, that's a great example of texturing. With the fabric being a fairly coarse surface, it would collect dirt, oil, and such in a very irregular pattern, and in some areas more than others. Thanks for finding that!

OK gents, been hot & heavy at the SE.5 for quite a while and finally have some worthwhile pics to share. First, the kit gun. They provide just enough PE to beef 'er up a bit.

Inside the fuselage halves - the small Reheat PE bits worked out great as attachment points for the interior bracing, which was done with .003" EZline. The oil tank and trim wheel were painted with Alclad II dark aluminum and given a black enamel wash.

For the cockpit deck/IP panel, I scratchbuilt the detail on the lower left of the panel (the molded-on stuff wouldn't have cut it here). The ammo cannister was painted flat black and buffed with powdered graphite.

Whereas the 'pit for the Pfalz was completely modular and could be entirely assembled as one unit prior to installation, for the SE.5, I had to rig up a simple jig to "pre-rig" the rudder pedals. Their attachment point is located on the lower main wing piece, seperate from the rest of the 'pit floor, which mounts between the fuselage halves. The cabling is EZline with 0.5mm brass tubing for the buckles. For the belts, it was easier to replace the strap sections with lead foil, textured by pressing on them with a flat file. The kit's metal 'buckle' parts were retained however. I went with Marc's technique for replicating the leather on the seat & headrest, and while extremely happy with the results, I see I still need more practice to master it as he has (great tip, buddy! ).

The fuselage halves should be buttoned up at some point today, with the 'pit and engine installed and lower wing attached. I also want to offer a huge "Thank you!" to my lovely wife for correcting my camera settings and providing me with much better pics to share with you guys. Love ya, sweetie!

Regarding fabric texture and  aircraft weathering...
You will find much discussion on the topic of fabric rendering, on one site I found an entry that ended up being 75 pages in length!

As wing_nut mentioned, at the scales we are working in you will definitely not see individual threads.  Even in real life after several coats of dope and paint you cannot tell it is fabric unless you tap it ( you hear a difference) or apply pressure to it - it gives.  If a fabric surface is next to another surface, say metal for example, and both are painted the same colour, then you might see a tonal difference.  Some say this is a result of the fabric surface weathering much faster , ie. the dope has yellowed and is cracking/flaking.  It could also be that the paint used on fabric would not adhere on metal so a different type paint was used there, but was not an exact match.

I have come across forums in which some agree that a fabric surface does have an overall impression of texture.   Here is an example from Stephen Lawson, although I believe his technique is intended just for lozenge surfaces, but you are free to interpret otherwise:

"... it is essentually a black wash that is dragged across the wing surface from fore to aft on the wings and horizontal tail surfaces. but on the fuselage applied vertically on the sides. Accross the top rear deck and the undersurface belly the were is applied to the surface to unite the texture directions of the sides.To be clear these are fabric surfaces that are not painted but have had their camouflage patterns printed on at the factory. The whole point of texuring is to represent the shadows that are inherited in the fabric on the finished aircraft"

Which takes us to the other end of the spectrum,  microsculpt.com  has created a decal to simulate linen fabric texture.  Apparently it looks great over lozenge decals, but can be used over monotone surfaces.  They do suggest on lighter backgrounds to overspray the decal afterwards to tone it down.   Atm only available in 1/48 but look "splendid" on 1/32 subjects.

For general aircraft weathering, you won't find dirt like you would on a afv.  I guess you can drybrush some finer details in lighter shades but don't overdo it.  Bleaching from sun exposure would be something to think about.   Hans von Hammer mentioned oil loss was a big thing, so check references for your specific craft for patterns and locations.  There is also exhaust stains, perhaps gun soot?   Prop splash would throw up dirt, and maybe the tires would throw up a bit on the undersides of the lower wing and landing struts, depending on the airfield condition.   Rust, maybe a bit on the engine - hopefully some of the 'stringbag' experts can qualify or add to this.

regards,

Jack

Eric I saw a mention about fabric texture in the AeroScale forum but not about how to do it, or I just missed it.  I think thought hat even in 1/32 scale the texture of the fabric you be too small unless it was covered in burlap.  By no means an expert but I would guess, purely from an aerodynamic aspect, the linen would be a tight weave and once doped and painted the surface texture would be all but gone.

Wingnut and Doog: you're work is looking terrific. I'm working on a humble Academy Camel that a kind soul gave me on my last birthday. Unless catastrophe strikes while assembling and rigging the wings I guess it will get done. I'm not sure how to weather however. (Les at WWIaircraft does "arrival day" models - I would too if mine looked like his. So on this matter he is of no help.) When I weather a tank I try to make plastic look like metal. Not sure if the same techniques will work well to make plastic look like fabric. Any thoughts on how to proceed?

BTW Doog: thankee much for a sweet tip. I bought some Bob's buckles and sleeves for my kit and left them in California - they're safe but I'm in St. Paul. So I got some midge size fly tubing: width is perfect - .5 mm and the stuff is far easier to cut than messing with brass tubing.

Eric