Spitfire GB

Jack, that top photo is exactly what I'm using for reference.  It's possible it is caused by the angle of the picture, but it seemed to me that the roundel extends closer to the aileron than a normal 56 inch version would.  Of course this is a subjective interpretation. 

I will probably be following Tim's protocol in the future, and using the kit supplied decals for national markings.  Spending over $8 for a sheet that has only one 56" roundel is not good use of my resources, although I suppose it helps the global economy.  Right now I have a bunch of left over Xtradecal sheets with 60-some inch roundels and other odd sizes that I'll never use. 

The photos are also interesting because the fuselage roundels don't appear as large as some seen in other photos, like the famous picture with DW-K, which I've read are said to be 49 inches?

In the photos, what do you estimate the size to be?  35" or 39" maybe?   Betwen decal instruction sheets and info on the web, I've come up with a lot of conflicting views on the marking subject.

Thanks for posting the pictures.  They are very useful. 

Regarding upper wing roundels, strange that the decal sheet has a lone marking and is not provided as a set.   I don't recall ever coming across a Spit (or any other RAF  aircraft ) having anything but identical size markings on either wing. Exception would be underneath with the b/w camou undersides.  As the port wing was black, the roundel had a yellow outer ring to offset it from the dark background.

I think I found the photo being referred to, plus a couple more from the same 610 squadron.  The roundel seems to be flush with the leading edge but there is some space in front of the aileron.  Could be just placement giving the illusion of a larger than normal roundel.

regards,

Jack

I started another new-tool Airfix Mk I/IIa tonight.  Other than the extra sprue it's the same kit.  I'll report in how it goes together, with pix.

I use kit roundels unless the AM decals provide them for specific markings.  Generally speaking the upperwing roundels were fairly standard sized at 56" throughout the war fr both Spitfires and Hurricanes.  If you have a photo that makes it clear a different size was used, then it's an anomaly.  If it looks an inch or two different, it's probably the camera angle playing tricks as the RAF were pretty good at keeping them properly sized. 

Pre-war or maybe late into 1939, I believe a 40" roundel was used, but it was temporary.  PR Spitfires seem to have their own "rules" (meaning none seem standard) for roundel sizes and location, so I rely on a good reference with a photo.

Fuselage roundels varied, especially during the BoB period.  They were supposed to be 35" but some units added the 2" yellow ring to the 35" and got a 39" roundel.  610 Squadron is a good example.

Underwing roundels came and went until 1941 when they were standardized.

Again, I use kit provided roundels especially when AM sheets don't provide enough.  My Aeromaster BoB Spitfires sheet (72-028) has enough roundels for 4 aircraft but there are 8 subjects on the sheet.  I also have a sheet or two of roundels I pick up at shows or during sales online.  Can never have too many...

Tim

Greenshirt

None that I remember.  I enjoyed the build so much I immediately went out and got 3 more, and have found 2 since on sale.  I'm knocking out some older Mk I's so I can focus more on these in the various schemes I want to do (most DG/DE but with various undersides).

Tim

Hmmmm.  I wonder if I've been building these in the twilight zone.

I bought  a tin of each of the underside colours WEM offers (sky, sky grey, both kinds of sky blue and eau de nil--which is pretty vibrant!).  It's also my plan to build a bunch of Spits and Hurricanes in different shades.

By the way, where do you get your roundels?  I got a sheet from Xtradecal for upper wings--and it has only one 56 inch type B, and over $8 for the sheet.  I know there was variation, but it seems most sources tend toward that size.  Would you think that the 54 and 59 inch versions are anywhere near acceptable?

There's a fairly well known photo of DW-T from the starboard aft position, and it looks to me like the wing roundel might be a little larger than normal.

According to Xtradecal's recent BoB decal instructions, smaller B roundels were used, down as far as 24 and 40 inches.

Squadron has a set of roundels by AeroMaster; think I had some about three/four years ago, but looks like the packaging changed.

None that I remember.  I enjoyed the build so much I immediately went out and got 3 more, and have found 2 since on sale.  I'm knocking out some older Mk I's so I can focus more on these in the various schemes I want to do (most DG/DE but with various undersides).

Tim

I agree, Tim.  Dry-fitting is how I found that the instrument panel was too wide--unless I did something there too I wasn't aware of.

You didn't have any problem with closing the fuselage?  No instrument panel interference there?

Greenshirt

Interesting. I've finished two new mold Mk I's and had no fit issues at all at the wing roots. Went together very smoothly.

Now, I find that interesting!  It's possible that when I glued the tops to the bottoms of the wings, I didn't have them seated properly, causing the problem.  I used gap-filling super glue.  Now, I'm wondering if that put enough "bulk" between the wing parts, and sort of "pushed" them inward?

On the other hand, looking again at the photos, it looks like the gun ports line up pretty well, top and bottom.

So:  I really don't know what happened!  Except that I will pay much more attention to this the next time I build one of these.

Here’s the progress on my Spitfire builds.  I’ve got the fuselages and wings assembled and sanded off.  With the old Spits, you can insert the (sparse) cockpit from the bottom.  This can’t be done with the new mold.  You have to glue to the port side of the fuselage, according to the instructions.  Then close it up, glue and sand.

Also, I discovered that the instrument panel needs to be shaved down or the fuselage won’t close around it.  Of course, I only discovered this after painting. 

In both cases, I closed the fuselage, sanded, then painted the area black, behind the prop backing plate.  Then I attached the plates to all three planes.  This is easiest with the old molds, since the plate as a hole in it, and is held by a “pin” inserted through the fuselage.  I stuck some masking tape, sticky side out, on the end of a paint brush, threaded the “pin” through the hole and held it there while pushing on the back plate and gluing.  I should have taken photos of this, but the build got away from me and I forgot.  You can kind of get the idea from some of the following photos I did remember to take.

With the new mold, there is a pin on the back of the backing plate, which is then secured by a little cap.  This makes it more tricky to fix up, but it can be done, again using masking tape on the tip of a paint brush.  But in this case you have to put the back plate in place, then fool around trying to get the cap on the pin inside the fuselage.  Don’t know if I’m explaining well enough, and photos would have shown the process better.  At least there is plenty of space between the cockpit and the bottom front of the fuselage to accomplish this.

The first photo below then is the new mold, showing fuselage and wing assemblies.  That must have been a bad day, because, again, I neglected to take similar photos of the old molds.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Unfortunately, major distressing discovery, as you can see in the next photos.  In the new mold Spit, the fuselage is too wide for the wings to fit!!  On each wing, there is a scribed line outboard from the edge, and the fuselage over laps this for a full width!!  You can easily see this in the top view photo.  The port wing is located properly, but that little scribed line completely disappears starboard, covered by the fuselage. 

I don’t know if this is because I messed up assembling the wings in the first place, or if it’s a problem with the molding.  Whatever it is, I will have to severely sand the fuselage on both sides until I get a fit.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

 [View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Interesting that this problem does not exist with the old molds.  The final photos show the old mold Spit with the wings fitting very well into the fuselage, with only minor gaps to fill.

I hope to get this all straightened out within a couple of day, and then proceed to painting.

Thanks for looking in.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

 [View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Thanks, most of my paints are MM, with some random testors and a couple of Humbrols. The Green is actually a pot of Tamiya that I bought in Jeddah around 91. Still in great shape. Thats a MM dk earth for the brown. I was spitballing the colors for closest match that I had and I'm happy with it. Maybe too vivid perhaps..

Sharp looking Spitfire, Noah.  Nice look to the colours.  Looks like Model Master from the bottles sitting around?

Also, from the top picture, did you paint the green first?  That's an innovation itself.  I've always started with brown, but you've got good results.

Sorry realize I havent posted much of an update. This has been fun and has turned out better then I expected so far. I'll be looking forward to finishing her up this weekend.

How it started...

Glue-ing from the inside! WINNING!

Most times it works, Vance.  I've even made a kind of template out of cardboard for B-17's, because the stabilizers are thicker at the base and taper toward the end.  It's the centerline that usually needs to be perpendicular to the tail fin.

The problem I encountered with many stabilizers is that there is just a very small area for gluing.  Use to little glue, and it doesn't grab very well; use too much and it oozes out.  I found that gluing from the inside is much more controllable.

Of course, as with all things in modeling, every step can end in disaster--and this one is no exception!

Thanks for your comments.

Stabilizers before joining the fuselage halves... that's just crazy!!! I can't say I've ever seen that before, but if you're checking the angle against the rudder, I suppose it really won't change the finished product. You see something new every day! Nice little addition with the tape belts, I've just started doing this as well with my newer builds.

One more shot of the cockpits from a different angle.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Then the fuselages.  For several years I've been gluing the horizontal stabilizers on before closing the fuselage.  I had a disaster with a P-51 once, when it was all painted--and the stabilizer fell off on one side.  Now I glue them from the inside.  I smear tube glue in the slot, push in the stabilizer, then run liquid gule around the whole shebang.  You have to be careful not to overdo this, or the glue does ooze out; but it creates a solid joint I've not had fall apart since.  I use a cheap protractor to adust the stabilizers at 90 degrees to the tail fin.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

I have been enjoying the posts and the progress of the builders here; there are some very talented Spitsfire artists.

Here is what I am planning on doing.  I'm building three Spitfires: one of the new tooling and two from the old tooling.  To keep from being repetitive, I'll only post progress on the second old tooling when the builds diverge.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

On top, above, is the new tooling, I bought last year with a 70th anniversary Battle of Britain sticker on the front.  Bottom is the old tooling box.  Nice artwork on both.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Above are the kit parts from the new tooling.  A few more parts than the old one, but still fairly simple.  This one has engraved lines that some might feel are too deep and overdone.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

Above is the old tooling.  Big difference is the old raised panel lines.

What I've got planned is to do these up in different paint schemes.  One of the old Spits will be "DW-T," from 610 Squadron, painted with Testor's Model Master Dark Earth, Dark Green and Duck Egg Blue.  I plan to paint the remaining two kits with WEM Colourcoats Dark Earth, Dark Green, with different underside colors/colours. The remaining older kit will be built as "QJ-Y" from 616 Squadron--sky blue undersides, and the newest Spit will become "LO-P" from 602 Squadron, with eau de nil undersides.

Here's progress so far.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

An interior view with the new Spit on top.  You can see the greater detail--the old Spit has none!  These are finished using WEM interior green--I neglected to photograph the other old Spit, painted with MM interior green.  MM does appear somewhat darker, while WEM is quite a bit brighter.

Next, a couple of shots of the cockpits for comparison.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

The old kit is very basic.  The new one is very nice, with a good decal for the instruments.  The detail is quite crisp, and it builds up to quite a little gem.  I made the belts out of masking tape, painted a very light gray. 

Thanks for looking in.

From wiki:

"Early attempts to intercept and destroy V-1s often failed, but improved techniques soon emerged. These included using the airflow over an interceptor's wing to raise one wing of the V-1, by sliding the wingtip to within 6 in (15 cm) of the lower surface of the V-1's wing. If properly executed, this manoeuvre would tip the V-1's wing up, overriding the gyros and sending the V-1 into an out-of-control dive. At least three V-1s were destroyed this way.^[15] That the method was from time to time actually effective could be seen over southern parts of the Netherlands when V-1s headed due eastwards at low altitude, the engine quenched. In early 1945 such a missile soared below clouds over Tilburg to gently alight eastwards of the city in open fields."

There's a lot of fascinating stuff there. Like machine guns being largely ineffective (hence another factor behind the Temps, Mossies and Spit XIVs...20mm cannon). Or the stunning chart of Gen. Bissell's report on the Blitz vs. V-1. 12 months versus 2 3/4 months, 90,000 sorties vs. 8,000, 1.15 million homes destroyed by the Blitz, 1.13 million destroyed by the V-1s (in 1/6 the time). 

Ahhhh - it's all coming back to me now!

Tempest - yes, that was the main V-killer, flat-out speed & good guns. Also the main "tipper" iirc, due to the sturdier wing structure. Only 3 brought down by tipping? Really?? I'll have to do some looking around. And yes, the explosive charge was an issue, the fighter had to pour on the speed to catch up & let fly the lead, and was then uncomfortably close to the rather large explosion.

Vance - you should check out the V-1 page on Wikipedia. They have some very in-depth info on numbers of V-1s downed by various aircraft and it's fascinating. 

Apparently the Tempest was the main buzzbomb killer, followed by the Mossie, Spit XIV and Mustang. 

Also, for all the fame that tipping has acquired, it seems only three V-1s were ever brought down this way. Compared to the thousands brought down by little chunks of lead.

From what I understand, the problem wasn't so much hitting the V-1s as shooting them down without getting oneself blown up when the explosive charge detonated. 

And man...this XIV is one sweet kit. It's no Tamiya Spit (but...it's also only like 60% the price), but it's mixed media. Resin for the cockpit, exhausts, gear bays, etc. Eduard PE for the instrument panel and other bits (if I'm not mistaken, it's the same one that I used in my Mk.VIII, which was the best PE panel I've ever seen, hands down.

DoogsATX

Those decals look amazing! I've got a few sheets that cover probably that many different planes, but they're type-specific. Got one for P-47s and another for Fw 190s, but they're basically just the unique bits. Crosses and stars and bars and stencils not included. But that set is sweet. Love the black wing, too!

I think satch might be exaggerating a bit about the Spit being robbed, lol! There was some very stiff competition in the 1/32 props category. But I WILL say that the Dauntless that won...meh. I've been trying to put my finger on it since the show, why it didn't do it for me, and I finally figured it out - the build had no soul. 

Also...UPS-Claus left this sweetness on my front porch today. Can't. Wait. To. Build. Aircraft. Again.

 

Ahhhh - I love the box art. I've been toying with the idea of mounting a Spit or Mossie right onto the wing of a V-bomb as if it was tipping the wing, as they sometimes did to knock them down. (They were rather small targets to hit with gunfire apparently!)

Those decals look amazing! I've got a few sheets that cover probably that many different planes, but they're type-specific. Got one for P-47s and another for Fw 190s, but they're basically just the unique bits. Crosses and stars and bars and stencils not included. But that set is sweet. Love the black wing, too!

I think satch might be exaggerating a bit about the Spit being robbed, lol! There was some very stiff competition in the 1/32 props category. But I WILL say that the Dauntless that won...meh. I've been trying to put my finger on it since the show, why it didn't do it for me, and I finally figured it out - the build had no soul. 

Also...UPS-Claus left this sweetness on my front porch today. Can't. Wait. To. Build. Aircraft. Again.

I saw DoogsATX's Spit in person at the Austin show this weekend.  All I can say is Wow.  He got robbed in the category.  it was a real beaut!

Satch

randypandy831

i think i need to jump in and build my tam 48scale Mk.Vb trop. going to hunt down some decals at my hobby shop today. 

or....maybe my hase 48scale Mk.IXc. 

More than welcome, let me know which one. Sorry for not being a very active host, just have my mind on other things lately.

i think i need to jump in and build my tam 48scale Mk.Vb trop. going to hunt down some decals at my hobby shop today. 

or....maybe my hase 48scale Mk.IXc. 

Vance: yup those pics are what you get. Good buy if the decals work right.

Jester: Great looking work.

Noah T

Decals came in yesterday. I scanned them. Look pretty good to me...

WOW - does that sheet supply all of those options?!?!?! I want to build up one of the spitfires with the single black wing at some point, a very unique look.

Decals came in yesterday. I scanned them. Look pretty good to me...

http://i1104.photobucket.com/albums/h327/Hellcat171/XtraDecalBattleofBritain70thAnnvRAF-a.jpg

^ Yip thanks.

So far.......