Gamera

Doogs: The George is really cooking!

Sorry, couldn't help myself there

Sounds like a plan, I'm not sure how I'd mask the leading edges there, what you've got seems like the most sensible way.

Eric: I spray Alclad in a closed in basement, I hope my lungs are ok. You can use low enough air pressure that I don't get too much fumes - or at least I don't think they're too bad. I rarely use anything more powerful than acrylic so I hope I'm ok....

Bsyamato: Nice, after the primer coats she's looking very smooth and sleek Sorry I couldn't think of a good Mary to match the George photo - only Mary I can think of is Mary Tyler Moore....

LOL !! unfortunately not know about these George and Mary

mixed the green and put on first layer!!! need to find empty bottles to put these mix 

Also cut the canopy copies ,heres the windshields

I'll try to fix them after second green layer with revell contacta clear glue and avoid CA this time

Should always read the labels. I bought several AK things and they were all enamel. Worn Effects, now that I look, is acrylic so no wonder it went through Future. (One thing I did find out was that if you use more Worn Effects the stuff comes off much easier, which could be good or bad.) Will use some enamel or lacquer clear in future. Am curious. For great big gouges or removing move of the paint for winter camo this stuff might work really well. For smaller scale things, I think you can do very good chipping with a sponge or brush. AK has a board now - not very big, but some Euros on it and the AK staff give opinions. There really don't seem to be any rules for the armor crowd now. Companies like MIG and AK come along with products galore but don't really tell you how to use them. I'm not sure they really know how to use them. I've got a AK DVD and Mig Jimenez uses a "streaking effects" brew for a pinwash. Or why would anyone want to use turpenoid on styrene - I think it leaves tidemarks.  (I'd really like to see some Abteilung oils. They're getting more money for those per ounce than the best artist oils on the market. From my experience, when you're using oils on a model, you don't want those super-powerful inorganic pigment/dyes that you pay big bucks for if you buy Windsor or another company. Those pigments will absolutely explode on you - I've got a ritzy blue that is useless on a model unless applied with a small needle -  unless you want a blue model. Wonder if Abteilung are not closer to the Reeves student grade stuff that you can pick up $10 - for 18 colors in small tubes.) They have a good racket: I'm reasonably sure Thinner for Washes is simple Mineral Spirits: I'd guess their setting fluid is close to acrylic thinner. The one place where I think AK is right is in using enamels for streaking instead of oils. Wish those weathering DVDs came from a neutral source: there's a lot of very good info on them. But they also are a kind of infomercial.  It'll all trickle down I hope. Hope this isn't heresy, but I think real combat aircraft were more heavily weathered than normally portrayed by modelers.

Unless I completely misunderstand the way the hairspray process works, you should be able to chip well after the stuff is dry. Don't quote me on this - picked this up from the AK videos and their board. (Probably should ask them. One of their guys named Ian is very quick to answer questions.) Methinks the fluid prevents the coat of paint from melding properly as opposed to drying properly. If so, you should have a long time to do your chipping. (In one of the AK videos it recommends moistening the coat you're chipping with ISP if water isn't working well enough: that says something.) If not, you'd have to move pretty quickly. It would be really helpful if we knew what this stuff does: what's the active ingredient? One video says look for hairspray with "extra hold" in it - that tells me that there's some chemistry working here. We just don't know what it is.  (Youtube has some stuff on it, but they're using it with acrylics all around and for taking off small amounts of stuff. They let everything dry, but don't say for how long. I'm sure there are more videos, but finding what you want on YouTube takes some luck.) We'll be watching, just report any catastrophes along with the triumphs.

Eric

For a while I've been using water based acrylics (Golden and Vallejo Model Color) for most things which are about as mild as you can find. Not sure one should be cavalier though. On Golden's website they recommend using a simple mask with their stuff because any pigment is still a kind of pretty dense dust and not meant to be inhaled. It's actually probably safer to eat the stuff. (Student grade acrylics made for schools often are eaten says my wife the grade school teacher. Little kids are beastly cute but do lack judgement at times.) So I try to wear a light mask but it's easy to forget when your stuff has no smell at all. My problem with a mask is that my glasses fog up. If I had won that lottery I'd have had the optician put prescription lenses into one of those proper masks. Maybe a fan too. (Hear my pain Micro Mark?)

Eric

Gamera

Eric: I spray Alclad in a closed in basement, I hope my lungs are ok. You can use low enough air pressure that I don't get too much fumes - or at least I don't think they're too bad. I rarely use anything more powerful than acrylic so I hope I'm ok....

I also do all my ABing in a closed basement, with enamels no less.  I figure all the time I spent in bars (when smoking was still allowed, even though I didn't) did whatever damage was to be done.  Shoot, I know body shop men who shot lacquers for years, still alive, a little goofy.... but still alive!

Doogs: The George is really cooking!

Sorry, couldn't help myself there

Sounds like a plan, I'm not sure how I'd mask the leading edges there, what you've got seems like the most sensible way.

Eric: I spray Alclad in a closed in basement, I hope my lungs are ok. You can use low enough air pressure that I don't get too much fumes - or at least I don't think they're too bad. I rarely use anything more powerful than acrylic so I hope I'm ok....

Bsyamato: Nice, after the primer coats she's looking very smooth and sleek Sorry I couldn't think of a good Mary to match the George photo - only Mary I can think of is Mary Tyler Moore....

Should always read the labels. I bought several AK things and they were all enamel. Worn Effects, now that I look, is acrylic so no wonder it went through Future. (One thing I did find out was that if you use more Worn Effects the stuff comes off much easier, which could be good or bad.) Will use some enamel or lacquer clear in future. Am curious. For great big gouges or removing move of the paint for winter camo this stuff might work really well. For smaller scale things, I think you can do very good chipping with a sponge or brush. AK has a board now - not very big, but some Euros on it and the AK staff give opinions. There really don't seem to be any rules for the armor crowd now. Companies like MIG and AK come along with products galore but don't really tell you how to use them. I'm not sure they really know how to use them. I've got a AK DVD and Mig Jimenez uses a "streaking effects" brew for a pinwash. Or why would anyone want to use turpenoid on styrene - I think it leaves tidemarks.  (I'd really like to see some Abteilung oils. They're getting more money for those per ounce than the best artist oils on the market. From my experience, when you're using oils on a model, you don't want those super-powerful inorganic pigment/dyes that you pay big bucks for if you buy Windsor or another company. Those pigments will absolutely explode on you - I've got a ritzy blue that is useless on a model unless applied with a small needle -  unless you want a blue model. Wonder if Abteilung are not closer to the Reeves student grade stuff that you can pick up $10 - for 18 colors in small tubes.) They have a good racket: I'm reasonably sure Thinner for Washes is simple Mineral Spirits: I'd guess their setting fluid is close to acrylic thinner. The one place where I think AK is right is in using enamels for streaking instead of oils. Wish those weathering DVDs came from a neutral source: there's a lot of very good info on them. But they also are a kind of infomercial.  It'll all trickle down I hope. Hope this isn't heresy, but I think real combat aircraft were more heavily weathered than normally portrayed by modelers.

Unless I completely misunderstand the way the hairspray process works, you should be able to chip well after the stuff is dry. Don't quote me on this - picked this up from the AK videos and their board. (Probably should ask them. One of their guys named Ian is very quick to answer questions.) Methinks the fluid prevents the coat of paint from melding properly as opposed to drying properly. If so, you should have a long time to do your chipping. (In one of the AK videos it recommends moistening the coat you're chipping with ISP if water isn't working well enough: that says something.) If not, you'd have to move pretty quickly. It would be really helpful if we knew what this stuff does: what's the active ingredient? One video says look for hairspray with "extra hold" in it - that tells me that there's some chemistry working here. We just don't know what it is.  (Youtube has some stuff on it, but they're using it with acrylics all around and for taking off small amounts of stuff. They let everything dry, but don't say for how long. I'm sure there are more videos, but finding what you want on YouTube takes some luck.) We'll be watching, just report any catastrophes along with the triumphs.

Eric

DoogsATX

bsyamato - well done on the flapwork! Think it'll be awhile before I take that kind of scratchwork on again, to be honest! The Fiat was flappy enough to last me some time...

..

Next up - let me introduce "Fail Frank", who is now a paint mule. Fail Frank graciously volunteered to help me try out some chipping techniques.

Me too Doogs, after i close the mary and the Veltro will not touch flaps for almost 5 or 6 planes engines too!! drammatically increase the work needed. I use an old f-15 as mule ,because i had the only upper surface

Nice workin on george

Sorry if not so present in this and past week but i'm on hard work period.

Some little update on the mary

re-draw lost lines

mary after first coat of mixed grey

and after the third coat

Claude started on the cockpit work, detail is good but some pieces need to be added. Soon pictures

EBergerud

Brave guy: I don't think I could handle Alclad paint fumes. My table is too far from a window to put in a circulation box.

One of the advantages of working in the garage with the door up (though when it comes to Alclad and Gunze I still wear a respirator and spend a few minutes outside after I spray)

I tried the AK Worn Effects stuff on my recent I-boat. It does work. However, even though it's listed as an enamel product, it got down to plastic really quick. If you're putting it between  a lacquer and an acrylic, I'd think that would work better. We'll all know soon I guess.

Think maybe we're thinking about different AK Worn Effects? The stuff I've got - and their heavy chipping fluid - are both listed as straight-up water-based. Basically the hairspray effect in more controllable form. I don't think it would get into enamel, BUT I've only tried it so far over Tamiya AS-12, which may be the single toughest paint I've ever encountered.

Just wish they had more documentation. How long, for example, until the product "turns off"? Or can it be  turned back on by wetting the paint with water again? Will a clear coat shut it down?

Either way, I'll find out soon!

Dreadnought is supposed to be a very clean build. It's inherently simple for that era (the ICM German Dreds have a more complex deck structure) and has a part count of about 320 which is very reasonable for a ship. If Trumpie puts out its Queen Elizabeth in WWI dress 1/350 I'll break my no buy vow. (Model reviewers can be really carpy, especially the ship rivet counters. Most Mikasa builders at Modelship have been very pleased with the kit if not with the prices Hasegawa likes for upgrades.)

Eric

That's one of the things I really like about the Dreadnought - the absolute economy of the design, and how it's very firmly between two eras of capital ship. Between it, the Laffey and the giant Revell Fletcher, I think I've got three pretty sweet ships to play with!

[/quote]

Brave guy: I don't think I could handle Alclad paint fumes. My table is too far from a window to put in a circulation box.

I tried the AK Worn Effects stuff on my recent I-boat. It does work. However, even though it's listed as an enamel product, it got down to plastic really quick. If you're putting it between  a lacquer and an acrylic, I'd think that would work better. We'll all know soon I guess.

Dreadnought is supposed to be a very clean build. It's inherently simple for that era (the ICM German Dreds have a more complex deck structure) and has a part count of about 320 which is very reasonable for a ship. If Trumpie puts out its Queen Elizabeth in WWI dress 1/350 I'll break my no buy vow. (Model reviewers can be really carpy, especially the ship rivet counters. Most Mikasa builders at Modelship have been very pleased with the kit if not with the prices Hasegawa likes for upgrades.)

Eric

Reasoned - it's the straight-up regular finish Aluminum. Definitely planning to mess with the panels on the bottom (not much need up top, where it'll just be showing through chipped green and yellow) - but wanted to give the Aluminum time to cure before I start masking panels.

Personally I'm not a fan of the high-shine finishes for wartime aircraft. MAYBE on a factory-fresh B-29 or something (or the brass one for doing brass shell casings - need to pick up a bottle for the Bishop). The best use for them IMO is as a shading tool, since their translucency lets the base black come through a bit and darken them as compared to aluminum, duraluminum, etc.

Gamera

Doogs:

I too do the yellow first and then mask over it. Mainly because it's a bear to get yellow to cover anything. So I spray the leading edges with white or tan, then the yellow, mask and paint everything else. Guess it won't work on your N1K1 since you've already sprayed the aluminum though.

Very nice job on the aluminum, you've become the master of the NM! And nice demo on the varoius types of masking for chipping.

Well, I'm planning on spraying the yellow directly over the aluminum so I can utilize the chipping fluid, then I'll probably mask and respray the Alclad on top to chip again on the green.

I think...

Doogs:

I too do the yellow first and then mask over it. Mainly because it's a bear to get yellow to cover anything. So I spray the leading edges with white or tan, then the yellow, mask and paint everything else. Guess it won't work on your N1K1 since you've already sprayed the aluminum though.

Very nice job on the aluminum, you've become the master of the NM! And nice demo on the varoius types of masking for chipping.

Doggs,

In answer to your yellow issue. FWIW I usually paint the yellow first and mask it as it seems to go down eaiser on the metal or primer then trying to shot it over the green.\

Nice metal BTW

DoogsATX

Bit more progress on the George tonight. Got the Alclad Aluminum laid down. Next I want to mask and shoot certain panels with some different Alclads (Duraluminum, Dark Aluminum, Dull on the ailerons, etc). Also got the props and drop tank shot tonight. For the tank, I went with Tamiya JN Gray, preshaded with some flat brown. Should be a nice contrast to both the topside JN Green and the NMF underside.

Not to get too side tracked but I'm thinking of using Alclad for the first time.  Which Alum did you use above, the 101 version or the "Shinny" A/C ALM version 119?  It seems to have a sheen to it but not like chrome.  Your finish looks flawless, going to have to Jap plane that one up a bit.

Reasoned

Looks great Doogs!  As for the weathering effect, if you're looking for a "heavy" effect,  I'd agree on the fluid technique.  Not real familiar with that process but it appears to give a realistic effect.

It's basically the hairspray technique...but AK's made specially-designed, through-the-airbrush fluid to do the job. I definitely went overboard with it, seeing how far I could go, but I think it's what I'm going to use with the George. My biggest fear is masking over for either the yellow or the green, but it seems like once the paint's had a day or so to cure it's pretty tough. The key to the chipping is hitting it fast...after the Tamiya paint is dry, but not dry, if that makes sense. 

Bit more progress on the George tonight. Got the Alclad Aluminum laid down. Next I want to mask and shoot certain panels with some different Alclads (Duraluminum, Dark Aluminum, Dull on the ailerons, etc). Also got the props and drop tank shot tonight. For the tank, I went with Tamiya JN Gray, preshaded with some flat brown. Should be a nice contrast to both the topside JN Green and the NMF underside.

Looks great Doogs!  As for the weathering effect, if you're looking for a "heavy" effect,  I'd agree on the fluid technique.  Not real familiar with that process but it appears to give a realistic effect.

That NMF looks great Doogs. Perfect.

DOOGS-

I usually do my yellow leading edges last...mostly because that`s when I remember I have to do `em. I have done them 1st ,.but to me, it`s about the same amount of difficulty either way...you`re taping off little rectangles one way or another...

bsyamato - well done on the flapwork! Think it'll be awhile before I take that kind of scratchwork on again, to be honest! The Fiat was flappy enough to last me some time...

Okay...question for the group before I dive into progress. The yellow wing edges...paint them first, then mask, or paint everything else, mask, then do the yellow? Seems easier to paint it then mask it the way it runs right up to the wing root, but this being my first Japanese plane, not sure if there's some stupid trick I don't know yet.

Next up - let me introduce "Fail Frank", who is now a paint mule. Fail Frank graciously volunteered to help me try out some chipping techniques.

I tried four. From left to right, good old prismacolor silver pencil, salt chipping, AK Interactive Worn Effects fluid, and AK Heavy Chipping Fluid. 

Honestly I really like the worn effects fluid, but I think it's a technique I need to get down a bit. Also there's something off with my H&S Evolution (think the needle's bent), so the stuff sprayed out all nasty, which may have contributed to the "dottiness" of it. Much better and more controllable than salt though. You can literally just pick the paint away with a toothpick.

Next...the George. Moving right along. Since it's going to be NMF on the bottom and getting some chipping action, I figured I'd prime it with Tamiya AS-12 Bare Metal Silver. Decanted, since I can't rattlecan to save my life. 

hard to find malachite here

On mary flaps resolution

signed structure parts locations with a pencil 

differences between the little triangles before the file cure. I glued the pieces with tamiya green cap to give more strenght to the structure, and another pass after all pieces on.

and after the file action

already primed this afternoon, now waithing for a perfect color cure

Eric: Nice collection of kits there, and nice job on the Ki-84.

Bsyamato: I suppose painting your model with malachite dust would be an interesting way to get the colour right

Nice looking kits there, 1/72nd is just too small for my eyes but some nice detail there and the fit seems pretty good.

Here some little update on the claude

the sprues

glued already wings pieces ,no modding here

and some dry fit

Thanx for replies guys, after more sesearchs modellers around the world that builded claude seems used same mitsubishi interior green others just used it but a little darkened.. goggle images shows pieces of malachite to show the colo, LOL should find a piece of malachite and try to break it and make some dust to add in a cleal enamel mix or just use the conventional mix of interior green

Eric nice score there when i'll finish these jap group will search for the others missing fighters.

no updates for now ,i had hard working two days on the office.

If Millman is right, and I'd guess he is, you can paint the frame the natural surface color of your choice and spray on some clear lightly tinted with ultramarine, or even a light blue or green. The affect of the light coat over the silver would give it the metallic effect as opposed to getting one of the paints I've seen that do indeed give a kind of garish blue green.

Santa arrived early and brought me some pretty rare 1/48 Hasegawas. Thought I was getting a Claude but it's a Nate which doesn't have funk appeal but was a more important aircraft. Both it and the Raiden were finds that I expected to pay eBay prices for.

And because someone asked for a Japanese plane, I'll give you my one and only (prior to the Val): a 1/48 Tamiya Ki-84 that I built maybe a year and a half ago. It was my first 1/48 scale plane. For obvious reasons I didn't display it here. But it actually looks ok from ten feet.

Eric

Doogs: Thanks, just curious to how much he wants for it. After the 1/24th P-47 my modeling budget is shot for some time but I'd kinda still like to know.

Bsyamato: Um, can you tell us what it said to paint malachite green? I might clear some up.

As to aotake as I've been told it starts out as blue and yellows as it ages turning more and more greenish.

Eric: Very true. It's easy to forget that Japan has only been an economic superpower since the '70s or so. During the Second World War they were still mostly an agrarian nation working hard to industrialize.

The Cole site is a very good one. If I was playing historian, I would strongly quibble with the implied praise of Japanese aircraft production found in the captions. Considering the state of Japanese industry, the Ministry of Munitions did a decent job of increasing aircraft and component production until late 1944 when the roof began to fall in. But in the real world that was faint praise. Japanese industry was behind the curve in every way in the 1940s (that changed as I'm sure we've all noticed) and compared to countries like the UK, much less the US, Japanese production figures are quite modest especially when you consider the fact that obsolescent aircraft were kept in production until war's end because newer models had poor operational reliability. None of this was the fault of the engineers - Japan had good ones. But the whole industrial structure combined to create a kind of "friction" that led Japan to slip hopelessly behind in both quantity and quality to American makes.  The fact that the US was also fighting Germany, and still managed to demolish Japanese airpower simultaneously only makes the point more vivid. Rant over.

The exact color for Japanese airframes is yet another question up for quibbles. It wasn't a color at all, but a protective coating. Here is IJNAF expert Nick Millman's comments which sound very sensible to me:

Eric

Normal 0

Airframe Interior

The whole airframe interior with the exception of the cockpit was coated in the ‘aotake’ translucent protective finish. Some extant examples are almost an emerald green but this is possibly the result of age yellowing and the original appearance might have been more blue green or even blue in appearance. Whatever colour is chosen it is recommended to apply the paint in a thinned coat over a natural metal finish rather than to use one of the proprietary brands of ‘aotake’ paint which often results in a rather garish metallic finish.

bsyamato

Reasoned:

 

Not wanting to be an R/C, just a word of advice on this pic and for builders of Jap planes with type #98 bombs exposed, in my research (which was limited mind you) it stated that they were grey, with green tip and a red stripe, not the "flat black" it usually calls for.

http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/bill_sanborn/phmod21.pdf

 

 

 

Cool thing, saved  and me found a good detail page for the george (and i'm searching for the Claude and found too!!)

http://www.colesaircraft.com/N1K1-J.html

also here the main link

http://www.colesaircraft.com/JAPACDET.html

  

Very nice links...thank you!

bsyamato

Someone know what colors i can use to mix malachite green? never see it. Keep in mind i don't use tamiya or gunze colors.

Hmm...malachite green (at least what Google Image Search shows me) looks kind of similar to emerald green. More blue-toned, but not quite into aqua. I'd suggest getting a good, straight-up green and adding blue a bit at a time until you get there.

In related, the paint codes on my George call for 90% Mitsu Dark Green and 10% something blue...

this one:

from warbird pictures site.

For sureness will use the other option for mine, decals have two or more options.

Just last night try a test fitting ,not bad never perfect, the mold seems really used by years some bad flashes on wings.

I can't say I've ever seen the Val with a home defense marking on the fuselage. (white rectangle with a hinomaru in it)