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Second Annual Berny Memorial Group Build

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  • Member since
    June 2009
Posted by jimbot58 on Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:25 AM

Going back to reviews, one company I worked for changed their review process from anniversary dates to end/beginning of the year. It sucked because my hire date was in February and they would not give  a review for anytime less than a year. Therefore, I had to wait 10 months, plus another full 12 months for my next review. On top of that, reviews came at the slowest time of the year, and they could sit there and say, "Great job, but as to that raise...things have been a little too slow lately." 

Did get some work in last night:

Added more parts to the tank:

I figured out that the wheels and track can not be mounted with the fenders on place, so I will need to finish the running gear before mounting them. I figure I can probably drape tissue over the gear afterwards so I can paint the upper half.

As to the Growler, I started masking and painting the glass:

And retouched the forward cockpit cowling/fairing that was marked up by my bumbling fingers:

Still haven't quite figured how I will go about finishing the inside of the canopy. As I mentioned before, there are PE parts to go there, and I can't really install them if I am going to tack it in place for painting. Don't think I can mask the cockpit area without risking possible damage to the detail work there.

Anyway, I'm off to that service I mentioned last night, which I found out has been changed, both time and location, so I better get going. Still under the weather a bit, so I don't plan on staying out for long.

*******

On my workbench now:

It's all about classic cars now!

Why can't I find the "Any" key on my keyboard?

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: California
Posted by mikeymize on Saturday, May 18, 2013 10:24 AM

First off thanks for the comments and constructive criticism. Completely agree with you Dom. Had too much going on at work, family, girlfriend etc. to give this the detail it needed. I always notice these things after it's done. As far as painting the tracks Jim, I've not a whole lot of experience but thus far I've mostly used MM enamel stuff along with mig pigments and have been ok. They seem relatively resilient. As I stated before tanks are not my first love but still enjoy them,

Russ, I too lived in the Eifel area; late 80's. Had a place first in a town called Seffern, then moved to Erdorf. Sounds like you were real close. Small world!

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time".


  • Member since
    April 2012
  • From: USA
Posted by Striker8241 on Saturday, May 18, 2013 10:41 AM

mikeymize

Russ, I too lived in the Eifel area; late 80's. Had a place first in a town called Seffern, then moved to Erdorf. Sounds like you were real close. Small world!


 
Wow, that's cool, Mike! We lived in Hallschlag, north of Prum. I was stationed at Prum Air station back in 75-78. I assume you were stationed at Bitburg. I remember we used to go through Seffern on our way to Prum. In those days, they didn't have the modern highways they have now. There were only winding hairpin roads as you well know. We took our lives in our hands just getting out on the roads in clear dry weather, never mind snow, ice and rain Big Smile.
 
If you were there in the late 80s I was still not too far from you - we were stationed just across the Dutch border at Brunssum, Netherlands, northwest of Aachen from July 84 to July 87.
 
It is indeed a small world Big Smile
 
Russ

 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, May 18, 2013 7:57 PM

Mike: Excellent work on the T-34! As Dom said you might want to rust/darken the steel cable and the spare tracks but otherwise she looks really good.

Jim: Nice work on the KT and the F/A-18, both are coming right along.

BTW: I use 'rubber bumper' paint from the auto parts store for a primer on rubber band tracks- it gives the model paint something to seal to. Then some dark grey, a rusty wash and some light drybrushing with steel paint where the treads would wear.

BBTW: Still working on the UH-60 I'm doing for the museum. I figured the interior which is full of seats was wrong for the medevac version but what Minicraft provides doesn't look right for ANY version of the Blackhawk I looked at on the internet. Doing a quick, cheap, and dirty interior with the medical stretchers etc... or at least that's the idea. (sigh)  

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:36 PM

mikeymize

  T-34 is finally done; so many side projects going wasn't sure when it was going to happen. In my haste to get some pics uploaded I forgot to install the antenna on the right side. I found the kit very straightforward and smooth as with most Tamiya kits. I wasn't really happy with the look of the tracks. Maybe a coating of mig track brown or MM burnt umber would have helped.....next timeHmm I used a metal barrel instead of the plastic one cause I always mess those up somehow Used Russian armor green for most everything but tried to vary the shade with a mixture of grey.   Did the road wheels as a mix of rubber rimmed and steel as this was quite common for these tanks during 1943. Overall, very happy with this and will surely do another in the near future.

Nice job Mike!  It looks really great!  Yes  Yes  I have updated the first page.  Congratulations on a nice build!  So what are you going to build next?

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:44 PM

jimbot58

Not a whole lot going on here. Stayed home today as the little cold I have been battling all week finally had its way with me, and I was up most of the night trying to hack up a lung, or at least part of one. In the meantime, my ribcage feels like a horse kicked me. I might sit down at the bench for a while, because I'm sure I won't be ready for bed anytime soon-I've pretty much slept most of the day anyway.

The service for my friend's Mom is tomorrow morning. Jack (my friend) called me and told me if I wasn't up to it, he would completely understand. I hate to not go as he was one of the first people there when my mom passed. The other bad thing is that its at the same place as my mom was so no doubt I will get emotional.

Mickeymize do you have experience painting those "rubberband" tracks on these small scale armor pieces? Not only color but type of paint? I've heard some types will eat them.

Hi Jim,

One of the things I found helpful after my Dad passed away was being able to talk to someone who had gone through the same experience.  Your friend and you may both benefit if you go.

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:52 PM

jimbot58

Going back to reviews, one company I worked for changed their review process from anniversary dates to end/beginning of the year. It sucked because my hire date was in February and they would not give  a review for anytime less than a year. Therefore, I had to wait 10 months, plus another full 12 months for my next review. On top of that, reviews came at the slowest time of the year, and they could sit there and say, "Great job, but as to that raise...things have been a little too slow lately." 

Did get some work in last night:

Added more parts to the tank:

I figured out that the wheels and track can not be mounted with the fenders on place, so I will need to finish the running gear before mounting them. I figure I can probably drape tissue over the gear afterwards so I can paint the upper half.

As to the Growler, I started masking and painting the glass:

And retouched the forward cockpit cowling/fairing that was marked up by my bumbling fingers:

Still haven't quite figured how I will go about finishing the inside of the canopy. As I mentioned before, there are PE parts to go there, and I can't really install them if I am going to tack it in place for painting. Don't think I can mask the cockpit area without risking possible damage to the detail work there.

Anyway, I'm off to that service I mentioned last night, which I found out has been changed, both time and location, so I better get going. Still under the weather a bit, so I don't plan on staying out for long.

Great work once again Jim!  You sure are keeping busy!

I hope you start feeling better before you get to your destination.  I am sure your friend will appreciate you being there for him.  We look forward to hearing from you when you get back.

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Saturday, May 18, 2013 9:58 PM

Gamera

Mike: Excellent work on the T-34! As Dom said you might want to rust/darken the steel cable and the spare tracks but otherwise she looks really good.

Jim: Nice work on the KT and the F/A-18, both are coming right along.

BTW: I use 'rubber bumper' paint from the auto parts store for a primer on rubber band tracks- it gives the model paint something to seal to. Then some dark grey, a rusty wash and some light drybrushing with steel paint where the treads would wear.

BBTW: Still working on the UH-60 I'm doing for the museum. I figured the interior which is full of seats was wrong for the medevac version but what Minicraft provides doesn't look right for ANY version of the Blackhawk I looked at on the internet. Doing a quick, cheap, and dirty interior with the medical stretchers etc... or at least that's the idea. (sigh)  

Thanks for the tip there Cliff!  That is some great advice.

Research!  My favorite part of this hobby!  Keep us in the loop on what you find out Cliff.

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Saturday, May 18, 2013 10:10 PM

Hi Everyone,

I added the wash to the jet pipes this evening.  When I took the pictures to post and was looking at them, I noticed the ridge in the back had a few smudges of green and was not completely covered.  And it really would not be right if they were green.

So being mister perfectionist that I am, I whipped out the paint brush and painted them.  Since they had enamel on them I could not use the Metalizer, so I used what looked to be a close enough color.  Especially being viewed from the back.  I used Model Master Gunmetal.

Anyway, back to the wash on the jet pipes.  I left more of the wash on to represent the dirty look they really have from looking at those videos.  Here is how they turned out:

Next step is to install the infamous photo etch flame holders!

Ken 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:07 AM

Striker8241

Bockscar

 

Fab T-34!

I knew  a guy, 40 years ago, he got blown up by one of those. I think it was Kursk, and he and an associate tried to dash across a road, and he woke up in Germany.

Great weathering, needs scratchy stuff, but I know you know about that, that cable could use a blackening wash or sludge, that would make it pop. You have a knack for the rust effects.

-Dom

Cool story, Dom!  I assume he was German...?   When I was stationed in Germany, we lived in a small village in the Eifel mountains near Bitburg. Our landlord was a wounded veteran from the battle of Stalingrad. He was captured when the Germans surrendered and spent 8 years in a Russian prison camp. When they released him, he had to walk the whole way back to Germany on his wounded leg. When we met him, he was in his seventies and he was still building houses. Those were tough people in those days.

Russ

Yeah Russ;

German. Politics aside, and the German Army often unwilling, those soldiers, pawns to a man, were heros in their own right, and i'd be shot for saying that in public.

I was a pal of his son, and i spent a week at their cottage, and he never lost his pride for what he accomplished and suffered. Such a waste, if you get me on that, but my 'gosh' he taught me a thing or two about believing in yourself, standing, inspite of everyone on earth condemning you....tougher than nails

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 12:11 AM

mikeymize

First off thanks for the comments and constructive criticism. Completely agree with you Dom. Had too much going on at work, family, girlfriend etc. to give this the detail it needed. I always notice these things after it's done. As far as painting the tracks Jim, I've not a whole lot of experience but thus far I've mostly used MM enamel stuff along with mig pigments and have been ok. They seem relatively resilient. As I stated before tanks are not my first love but still enjoy them,

Russ, I too lived in the Eifel area; late 80's. Had a place first in a town called Seffern, then moved to Erdorf. Sounds like you were real close. Small world!

Yeh Mikey, hear you on that, I wish I had time to detail everything, no one will notice after seeing that fab weathering, can taste the rust from here....Yes

Dom

  • Member since
    April 2012
  • From: USA
Posted by Striker8241 on Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:32 AM

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

I added the wash to the jet pipes this evening.  When I took the pictures to post and was looking at them, I noticed the ridge in the back had a few smudges of green and was not completely covered.  And it really would not be right if they were green.

So being mister perfectionist that I am, I whipped out the paint brush and painted them.  Since they had enamel on them I could not use the Metalizer, so I used what looked to be a close enough color.  Especially being viewed from the back.  I used Model Master Gunmetal.

Anyway, back to the wash on the jet pipes.  I left more of the wash on to represent the dirty look they really have from looking at those videos.  Here is how they turned out:

Next step is to install the infamous photo etch flame holders!

Ken 

Good work, Ken. That wash brought out the crenelated surface nicely! Yes Yes Maybe you should put orange light bulbs up inside to light up the details Big Smile.

Russ

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:38 PM

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

I added the wash to the jet pipes this evening.  When I took the pictures to post and was looking at them, I noticed the ridge in the back had a few smudges of green and was not completely covered.  And it really would not be right if they were green.

So being mister perfectionist that I am, I whipped out the paint brush and painted them.  Since they had enamel on them I could not use the Metalizer, so I used what looked to be a close enough color.  Especially being viewed from the back.  I used Model Master Gunmetal.

Anyway, back to the wash on the jet pipes.  I left more of the wash on to represent the dirty look they really have from looking at those videos.  Here is how they turned out:

Next step is to install the infamous photo etch flame holders!

Ken 

Ken;

Great job on those cans, and the detail of the perforations is super!Yes

My understaning from Berny, if i didn't miss-hear him, is that those can liners were titanium, and that's why they are green. If they were steel, they would be the color of the inside of a car's tailpipe.

I have a question, forgive me if I missed your previous explanations;

how did you paint the inside of the cans, brush or airbrush?Confused

Tx

Dom

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Sunday, May 19, 2013 5:04 PM

Striker8241

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

I added the wash to the jet pipes this evening.  When I took the pictures to post and was looking at them, I noticed the ridge in the back had a few smudges of green and was not completely covered.  And it really would not be right if they were green.

So being mister perfectionist that I am, I whipped out the paint brush and painted them.  Since they had enamel on them I could not use the Metalizer, so I used what looked to be a close enough color.  Especially being viewed from the back.  I used Model Master Gunmetal.

Anyway, back to the wash on the jet pipes.  I left more of the wash on to represent the dirty look they really have from looking at those videos.  Here is how they turned out:

Next step is to install the infamous photo etch flame holders!

Ken 

Good work, Ken. That wash brought out the crenelated surface nicely! Yes Yes Maybe you should put orange light bulbs up inside to light up the details Big Smile.

Russ

You know what Russ, that is not too bad of an idea!  But I will save that for the 1/32 scale build I am going to do later.  I was planning on putting in LEDs for the navigation lights, landing lights, and anti-collision lights.  But that would be a cool feature!

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Sunday, May 19, 2013 5:09 PM

Bockscar

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone,

I added the wash to the jet pipes this evening.  When I took the pictures to post and was looking at them, I noticed the ridge in the back had a few smudges of green and was not completely covered.  And it really would not be right if they were green.

So being mister perfectionist that I am, I whipped out the paint brush and painted them.  Since they had enamel on them I could not use the Metalizer, so I used what looked to be a close enough color.  Especially being viewed from the back.  I used Model Master Gunmetal.

Anyway, back to the wash on the jet pipes.  I left more of the wash on to represent the dirty look they really have from looking at those videos.  Here is how they turned out:

Next step is to install the infamous photo etch flame holders!

Ken 

Ken;

Great job on those cans, and the detail of the perforations is super!Yes

My understaning from Berny, if i didn't miss-hear him, is that those can liners were titanium, and that's why they are green. If they were steel, they would be the color of the inside of a car's tailpipe.

I have a question, forgive me if I missed your previous explanations;

how did you paint the inside of the cans, brush or airbrush?Confused

Tx

Dom

Hi Dom,

I airbrushed that green, my paint brush skills are not that good!

 

From listening to the videos from the links I posted, the green is a high temperature paint that is painted on the inside of the liners.  Here is one of the links where the guy narrating talks about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5ccK94IvsA 

Ken

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 5:21 PM

I told you the inside of those burner cans were green, Dom!

Dom

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, May 19, 2013 8:56 PM

Awesome photo there Dom!!!

Ken: Looks good, the wash really picks out the detailing.

Yeah, I have to admire some of the 'bad guys' even if I don't appreciate what they were fighting for. The Germans, Japanese, Italians (well maybe not so much there) had guts to spare esp to keep fighting when things were hopeless. Read Iris Chang's 'The Rape of Nanking' sometime if you want to be disgusted, the things the Japanese did in Korea and China were absolutely inhuman and vile but I still have to admire their guts enough to host a Japanese GB...

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 10:03 PM

Yeah Cliff,

What they were fighting for was some big government vision, led by some "do-gooder".

i hate it when regular folks do unspeakable evil to other regular folks because

of some 'visionary' leader preaching "good intentions", but essentially a fascist at heart,

writes a narrative to justify the unspeakable.

It happens all the time, it's happening today, no reason to think we are immune from that kind of

stuff today, and our electronic world makes it even easier for them.

Yeah, some days, I am overwhelmed with agape, then someone cuts me off in traffic, and I am overwhelmed with misanthropy...LMAO....

No guilt on the Japanese GB.....love them, can forgive the misguided individuals, if not the outright evil, celebrate their heroism and sacrifice, but can never forgive their government.

and that is the human condition.

As some would say, I love folks, hate their politics.......

The German soldiers fought bravely and resolutely,

and that was their lot in life as pawns of the government.

They stood,,,,,

and they fell....

At the very least, those former foes deserve our respect,

and our friendship as people.

Dom

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, May 19, 2013 10:51 PM

Yeah Dom, as I see it the Axis politicians and senior officers who gave the orders are long dead by now - the surviving German, Japanese, and Italian vets alive today were bunch of teen-age kids who did what they were told back then.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Ontario, Canada
Posted by Bockscar on Sunday, May 19, 2013 11:27 PM

-Cliff;

That's it.....sad, but trueSad

Now, if only we could get their grandchildren-great-grandchildren 

jobs, and hope for the future.....

the human struggle continues even with technology......

I hope some of them want to build kits and celebrate those human struggles!!!!!!Big Smile

Dom

  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: California
Posted by mikeymize on Monday, May 20, 2013 7:57 PM

Couldn't agree more. Speaking as one who lived in Germany for many years I found the majority to be very friendly, well mannered and eager to learn about the U.S. I speak German relatively well thanks to my Grandmother and some college classes and this may have helped. I also showed an active interest in learning of their culture as well as improving my command of the language.

 Having just finished a book on the Battle of Kursk I can say the German high command seemed to have more respect for their soldiers lives than the Russkies. And of the German commanders who screwed up, Hitler merely fired them. Stalin, on the other hand pretty much killed anyone who didn't  show results; didn't care about body counts just results. Plus, as you say, the regular Joe Schmoe German soldier wasn't a Nazi just a guy drafted defending his country. 

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time".


  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: California
Posted by mikeymize on Monday, May 20, 2013 7:58 PM

Couldn't agree more. Speaking as one who lived in Germany for many years I found the majority to be very friendly, well mannered and eager to learn about the U.S. I speak German relatively well thanks to my Grandmother and some college classes and this may have helped. I also showed an active interest in learning of their culture as well as improving my command of the language.

 Having just finished a book on the Battle of Kursk I can say the German high command seemed to have more respect for their soldiers lives than the Russkies. And of the German commanders who screwed up, Hitler merely fired them. Stalin, on the other hand pretty much killed anyone who didn't  show results; didn't care about body counts just results. Plus, as you say, the regular Joe Schmoe German soldier wasn't a national socialist, just a guy drafted defending his country. 

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time".


  • Member since
    September 2010
  • From: California
Posted by mikeymize on Monday, May 20, 2013 8:00 PM

Sorry 'bout the double post, blame it on the server. (It really was).

"Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time".


  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 20, 2013 9:15 PM

Bockscar

I told you the inside of those burner cans were green, Dom!

Dom

That is a good picture Dom!  That was on the day when the museum let Berny behind the ropes to get close and personal with the Phantom!

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 20, 2013 9:16 PM

Gamera

Awesome photo there Dom!!!

Ken: Looks good, the wash really picks out the detailing.

Yeah, I have to admire some of the 'bad guys' even if I don't appreciate what they were fighting for. The Germans, Japanese, Italians (well maybe not so much there) had guts to spare esp to keep fighting when things were hopeless. Read Iris Chang's 'The Rape of Nanking' sometime if you want to be disgusted, the things the Japanese did in Korea and China were absolutely inhuman and vile but I still have to admire their guts enough to host a Japanese GB...

Thank you Cliff for the compliment!

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 20, 2013 9:29 PM

mikeymize

Couldn't agree more. Speaking as one who lived in Germany for many years I found the majority to be very friendly, well mannered and eager to learn about the U.S. I speak German relatively well thanks to my Grandmother and some college classes and this may have helped. I also showed an active interest in learning of their culture as well as improving my command of the language.

 Having just finished a book on the Battle of Kursk I can say the German high command seemed to have more respect for their soldiers lives than the Russkies. And of the German commanders who screwed up, Hitler merely fired them. Stalin, on the other hand pretty much killed anyone who didn't  show results; didn't care about body counts just results. Plus, as you say, the regular Joe Schmoe German soldier wasn't a national socialist, just a guy drafted defending his country. 

The other thing about the German people was their genius during WWII!  They came up with so many weapons that if they had just a little more time, they could have won the war!  Just to name a few, the V-2 rocket, the jet engine with swept wing technology, and the Type XXI "Elektroboot" submarine.  And they were close to making their own atomic bomb!

Ken

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Monday, May 20, 2013 9:32 PM

Hi Everyone!

The jet pipes have flame holders!  They are glued in place:

Ken 

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Monday, May 20, 2013 11:01 PM

Mike: Very true, I've always found it funny people want to focus on Hitler when Stalin and Mao killed waaaaaayyyyyy more of their own people. I've seen different statistics but these seem pretty close:

National Socialists:    7 million killed

Soviets:                       30 million killed

Red Chinese:            70-120 million killed

Ken: Yayyyyyyy!!!!!!! Great to see the flame holders in there- and they look good!!!

I have to disagree some on the German secret projects though. Frankly seems to me if they'd invested the time and effort they did on the V-1 and V-2 that just might if lucky hit something in the same zip code as the target on a good solid four-engine bomber like the B-24 or Lancaster they'd have been better off.

They did lead in aircraft technology but still the British were neck to neck with them on jet development.

Despite some rumors the Germans were decades away from developing an A-bomb. Seems most of their best atomic engineers and physicists were well... Jewish. The guys the Germans had working for them were second raters at best. Plus the US and UK each had their own programs that when combined and massive amounts of uranium contributed by Canada were added we ended up with a massive lead.

The Allies had huge leads when it came to computers, radar, mass production - lots of less flashy things than super weapons projects that made a great deal more impact in the long run though.

Or so I've read, your mileage may vary!  Wink

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    April 2012
  • From: USA
Posted by Striker8241 on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 5:52 AM

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone!

The jet pipes have flame holders!  They are glued in place:

Ken 

Looking good, Ken!  Amazing isn't it ? - how something as small as a dime can take so much time and effort Big Smile.

Russ

 

  • Member since
    November 2010
  • From: Lafayette, Indiana
Posted by Son Of Medicine Man on Tuesday, May 21, 2013 6:00 AM

Striker8241

Son Of Medicine Man

Hi Everyone!

The jet pipes have flame holders!  They are glued in place:

Ken 

Looking good, Ken!  Amazing isn't it ? - how something as small as a dime can take so much time and effort Big Smile.

Russ

Thank you Russ!  Plus there is nothing like doing the same thing twice!  Smile 

Ken

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