Gamera, thanks. I am not sure if the coating the Germans used is the same as was on, in fact I don't even know what ours were covered in, just that it was not pleasant to handle. But I have read German tanks were painting black so I have assumed it was something similar if not the same.

7 in 10 months. I'm surprised they had time to take the wrapper off. That's some going, and I wouldn't be surprised if that was not uncommon for both sides.

BarrettDuke

Jgeratic,

Thanks for your comments on track rust. It seems to me, the life of tanks is a really important issue when doing weathering. I sometimes wonder if people do too much weathering. After all, probably most tanks were only in action a few years. What's your guess on how long a Panther or Tiger was actually in service?

Weathering can be broken down into two parts- the stuff from use & abuse: chipping, rust, soot, etc.; and teh stuff from the environment:mud, dust, dirt, rain streaking... Like Bish, I had a bit of expereince on different AFVs & softskins. His take on things is like mine, modern vehicles are older and more well maintained. Yes they are going to get dirty, dusty, muddy- that is a given. Anywhere that they roll, they take along part of the surrounding terrain with them, just thru the dynamics of their tracks and wheels. But personally I feel that rust and chipping is way overdone as current modeling trends go. The paint on most vehicles is pretty high quality and unless the vehicle has been repeatedly hit by bursts of machine gun fire and artillery barrages, it is not gonna show the "chipping" that is so popular nowadays. Breaking down Bish's analysis on Tiger & Panther service lives, it is certainly measured in months at most. Oldest/earliest Tigers produced in 1942 and sent to Africa in November were gone within 7 months. Oldest/earliest Panther D's were sent to Kursk in July 1943 and the majority lost there in combat or mechanical breakdown and overrun. It is rare to come across a photo of a survivor by the end of 1943. Of the hundreds of panzers that were in France on June 5, 1944 on the eve of the invasion or that would be sent there, the vast proportion would be lost in combat within 90 days. Only a handful would survive to fight by fall. Allied losses were not much different. Col Abrams, namesake of today's M1 Abrams tank, would command and fight seven different M4 Shermans "Thunderbolt" between July 1944 and May 1945. The main difference was that Allied production could keep pace with losses, and still have surplus inventory.

Bish: She looks great!!! I love the dusty finish. Only issue I'd have is the floatie tracks which you've already said you're dealing with.

And on the spare tracks that's interesting, I've always painted them rust, never knew there was a protective coating applied...

Barret, in WW2, I would guess that the life expectancy of most armour would be measured in months rather than years. When it comes to Panthers and Tigers, keep in mind that these only entered service in late 42 in the case of the Tiger and mid 43 for the Panther. If you look at images from Normandy for example, it will be hard to find a panther Ausf D, that was in production less than a year before. If armour wasn't destroyed completely, it might well be replaced when the unit was refitted with older ones perhaps going back to training units or being converted into some other variant. When it comes to the Tiger II, these were only in service for a year.

Of course, you have to also consider that the use they would have seen during their short life would be greater than most modern AFV's. The longest I had a Warrior in the field was 6 months in Iraq, and of course we had the benefit of going back to a proper base at the end of the day with proper repair facilities and good supplies.

In regards to rust on tracks, in particular those actually driving the tank, again, some people go over board. My experience is that when an AFV is sitting in the shed for a few days, then yes, surface rust will build up. But once you start to drive it, it doesn't take long to come off. And these are tracks that have had the coating worn off. And also, track life is not all that great. On the Warrior, we expected to get I think 5,000KM out of them, less in desert conditions with the sand wearing away the rubber bushes.

I would guess the track on a heavy tank like a Tiger or Tiger II would last even less.

68, thank you.

Panther came out great Bish!

Jgeratic,

Thanks for your comments on track rust. It seems to me, the life of tanks is a really important issue when doing weathering. I sometimes wonder if people do too much weathering. After all, probably most tanks were only in action a few years. What's your guess on how long a Panther or Tiger was actually in service?

Bish,

Thanks for the response. That's very helpful. You're the first person I've read who said the tracks came with a coating on them to help prevent rust. That's very important information. That would explain why you don't see rust streaks down the sides of tanks below their mounted track links. Again, great work on the Panther.

Thanks for the comments guys. In regards to the tracks, they will be adjusted once it goes onto the base. I am posing this on the move, so I want to try and get a bit of movement into the tracks rather than just have them laying flat on top of the road wheels. The drive sprocket has been fixed but the tracks can be pulled round the rear idler.

This is how i plan to have the tracks once its on the base

And of course i also have to add some foliage as in the Hamster's pic. No self respecting Panther should been seen out in Normandy without something to cover its modesty.

In regards to the rust on the spare links, to be honest I am not a big fan. Some of the features on this Panther indicate a vehicle that's very new in Normandy, built either in late May or early June. New track came with a black tar like coating on it, they still do today which protects them from rust. I would disagree that these links rusted up quickly. I used to drive a Warrior IFV and as an armour modeller i tried to pay attention to things like this, and i did notice that it did take some time for the rust to build up, especially in dry conditions.

Barrett, one of the problems is that most photos from WW2, especially of German armour, are in black and white, so its really hard to tell. My suggestion would be to determine how long your vehicle has been in the field. Or more accurately, how long those spare links have been on there. Also, what's the environment.  I painted mine semi gloss black and then highlighted with some gun metal powder. The grey look you mentioned, that's from the dusting effects i added.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions guys, much appreciated.

Eric, its taken quite some time to get to this. The first time i added washes i didn't allow at all for the effects of weathering when i painted and that came out really dark. The oil wash was a really thin one, and i think that had less of an effect on the shade and the AK dusting effects are really nice and i find easy to use.

Greg - great job on the textured surface of the turret

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Bish - I like your Panther very much, that camou is certainly eye catching.  You might be able to get some slack going by giving the drive sprockets a twist to the rear, or are they glued solid?

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I did some looking up on the spare track colour question.  Usually by this stage of the war, they left the factory unpainted, but if the tank  had camou added later in the field, that might receive some overspray.  German tracks supposedly had a high manganese content, which did not rust easily.   Also, many of these tanks had a very short life span, so not much time to rust.

regards,

Jack

Very sweet build bish. Looking for a bigger bush to hide my Cromwell behind. For hardy souls enamel products are good tools. Do like the very clear contrast between below and above the fenders. (Rinaldi would have suggested a final oil wash on the wheels after the pigments just to prevent uniformity.)

You did a better job than I did of getting the kit in scale and keep it lighter after the weathering process. And I certainly don't quibble with the dust effects - absolutely no doubt that an AFV in the front line would have been dusty even if it had only moved a few miles.

Very nice.

Eric

Great job Bish. Your usual fantastic work.

I second that.

I gotta agree with the hamster... but I would suggest doing something about the upper run of the tracks. They look a bit too high off the road wheels to my eye.

Bish,

Really nice looking work. Congratulations. I do have a question, though. It's something I have to figure out on a King Tiger I'm building off and on. It's about the spare links of track mounted on the tank. Most everything I've read says track links rusted up pretty fast. So, I'm thinking that if the links aren't covered with dirt, snow, or whatever, or scraped against rock or something so the steel shows through, that they are going to be rusty. I noticed that you left the spare links mounted on your Panther grey. Did the Germans paint these spare links so they didn't rust up? You paid too much attention to detail not to have thought about the appearance of the links. I'm just wondering how that affects the links mounted on my KT. Do I paint them grey, rust, or what? How do you determine when to represent rust on tracks and when not to? Thanks.

I have to say that's looking pretty neat-o!  

I have just finished up the panther tonight. I still have a figure and the base to finish off before I am calling it done and hopefully I should be done tomorrow.

To finish off, I sprayed AK's Dust effects going from bottom to top and adding slightly less as I went up. This was followed with AK earth effects on the running gear and lower hull. I had intended to remove the excess, but I was really happy with the result so I left it. I am finally getting the sort of finish on my armour that I would like. To finish off I added MiG Pigments European dust on the running gear and lower hull.

If anyone spots anything I might have missed, don't be shy, as always, any comments or suggestions are very welcome. 

It depends upon the type of armor- rolled/pressed or cast. Cast armor has the rough texture, but rolled/pressed armor is pretty smooth

I agree with the rough texture comment. I can't see how tanks during WW2 can have smooth surfaces right off the factory lines. I'm liking the MV links as well. Something to think about for future builds.

Greg: Looks good! Very nice job with the rough cast texture.

I also got the turret sanded and painted.

 

The markings are next and then I'll install the gun & mantlet.  After that is the weathering phase.

Bish: they are very handy....especially for headlights, spotlights, and the underwing recognition lights on those wingy-thingies.

Thanks, they look handy.

Bish: they are simulated light lenses from M.V. Products. They come in a wide assortment of sizes, colors and combinations.  Just google image "M.V. Products" (www.google.com/search) or "MV Lenses" (www.google.com/search)

Nice work Greg, what are MV lenses, not heard of those.

So, I managed to get the bogie assemblies built and installed on the M4 this weekend.  I pre-painted the road wheels to make it easier.

Did I mention how I hate painting headlights?  Well, I do, so I drilled them out so I can install MV lenses later.

That's all for now....I'm off to paint the hull.

Thanks, in the preview, it shows the pics. I'll figure out what I did wrong and fix it.

Nice work Barrett.

When you post pics, use the Use rich formatting link and then you will see the link to post pics directly into the post rather than just the link.

Looking forward to seeing more.

I'm enjoying building this Bronco Models 10.5cm LEFH18(SF) sparty for the GB. Here are the inside walls of the fighting compartment. I did some chipping on a metal box that looks like it might have been a firstaid kit or something. It looks like it must have slipped in and out of some brackets. I've seen some people do aftermarket of this and there may actually have been three small metal boxes, but I'm just working OOB. I also imagined that the ammo crates were wood. I could be wrong about that, but I liked the look. I still need to do lots more weathering and distressing.