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1944 Group Build

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  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, December 1, 2014 12:48 PM

Nice one check, that looks like a model all by itself.

Looking good there Joe.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Monday, December 1, 2014 2:41 PM

Don't think I've ever tried using white glue with sprue. My problem with sprue is that I always make main masts out of brass tubing. (Easiest thing in the world - just copy the plastic and join it with CA. Never used solder. Much easier to rig. One of uber-meister Jim Baumann's tips on Model Warship.) So I'd use plastic glue on it and it would melt. The neat thing about sprue if you can get it to work is that there are no knots. Also good that you can tighten it with heat (Baumann recommends burning incense sticks which work very well - the smoke tells you where the heat is going and it's easier to keep a distance. Mono works the same, but it has the biggest knots.) Next ship I'll try some sprue with my trusty Aleene's Tacky Glue - one of the most important weapons in my modeling arsenal. It's just white glue that has a very distinct grab to it: use Aleene's to fix PE and CA to cement it. Look forward to seeing the completed ship.

Bish - do like your armor. Doesn't have the overly tidy look of the Tony Greenland style and avoids the overkill of Jimenez-Rinaldi school. Very well thought out.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Monday, December 1, 2014 2:48 PM

Eric, thank you. Until a couple of years ago, the Tony Greenland way was how all my armour kits were built. But since coming on here I have really been working on improving it. I think I am close to where I want to be with the weathering whether it be light or heavy, which all really depends on the base and the finish I am after. I am trying to avoid in having one 'style' but still trying to have a standard approach I can use what ever the finish I am after.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Monday, December 1, 2014 3:47 PM

Thanks, Bish.  After all the time it takes to get the rigging right, it feels like making a model in itself!

Eric:  not sure where I picked up the use of white glue; it might have been an old book from the 70's by Chris Ellis about making plastic models.  I've used it since before they invented CA.  It takes a while to wait while the white glue sets up, but after that it's tenacious, and the sprue will melt/break before it lets go.

Again, the advantage is that there's no mess if you need to remove the sprue-line.  Just a touch the attachment point with a wet brush; wait a bit; and the errant sprue pulls right off--and, you get to start over.

I may have to get some brass tubing and try making masts, cuz I almost always break the plastic ones and have to fix them.  

Do you have any suggestions about the size of brass tubing for masts in 1/700?  

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 2:13 AM

There's a hardware store near my house that sells metal wire and tubing ranging from very thing to very big. I just went down there and picked out some packs of thin stuff of various thickness - some tubing, some not. I had a plastic mast with me and eyeballed it - worked fine.  Most of my labels are long shredded, but enough are left to tell you that .5mm is pretty thin and 2.0mm is pretty thick. I'd look for stuff on both sides of 1.0 mm.  If there's a hobby shop nearby they should have plastic tubing - find something that looks right and note the size. Hobby shop might sell metal too, especially if they have model railroads.  The online shops sell metal tubing of all kinds and you sure don't need that much. (Obviously a small tin snip is needed.) Even at hobby shops it's pretty cheap so you can get several sizes - hardware stuff is nickle/dime.

There's an English company called Albion Alloys that makes technical tubing and have a modeler collection. This is more expensive but very reasonable in model world. They sell every tubing under the sun, but what's neat are their sets of tubes designed to just fit inside each other: I can imagine making a gun barrel out of it. There are some very expensive tapered masts out there, but they're specific to various ships. The Albion stuff could make some neat effects. But for most purposes pretty thin brass wire/tube is the easiest to cut, cheap and far stronger than styrene. I don't do much scratch building, but even I can make a foremast in fifteen minutes. Frequently some plastic details from the kit can be removed from the styrene and put on metal. Here's the one I made for Hobson - brass with some plastic detail attached:


Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 5:42 AM

CMK, I have a question. How do you get your rigging so tight with out melting the sprue? Also do you attach the sprue to the mast or deck first. I am trying to make mine look as good as I can but not having much luck right now.

Things are looking great with all the builds in here. Everyone keep it up.

I need to see what I can come up with for the 1945 build. Oh wait I know, how about the USS Missouri at Tokyo Bay 1945. Completely different paint scheme. Maybe the wife will let me get the railings and ladders and some PE for it. Never tried PE before. That's gonna be a challenge. Don"t know if my hands will let me do all that small stuff. Plus I do not have anything to bend the PE with.

My wife is gonna kill me when I tell her it gonna take between $30 to $65 to get a PE bender. Just send flowers to the funeral.

Doug

Nomad53


 

  • Member since
    April 2013
Posted by SchattenSpartan on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 9:48 AM

Bish: You did one hell of a job on the 251! The camo looks truly amazing!

Checkmate: Holy moly, now that's some really, really fine rigging you got there! My hat's off to you! Those are some really nice looking floatplanes too!

Joe: I can't wait to see her fully painted and unmasked!

Doug: Nice work on the Missouri! I'm looking forward to seeing her with some weathering!

Steve: That T-34 looks great, despite the age of the kit! The base turned out really well too! Is there any particular picture you want me to add to the front page?

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 10:43 AM

Thanks for the information and suggestions, Eric.  And that is a beautifully done mast!  

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 11:17 AM

Hey, Doug:

You can use a burning piece of incense, and gradually bring it closer to the sprue-line.  Hopefully, the incense smoke is hot enough to tighten the plastic.  Too close and it will melt through and curl up.  I've had that happen more than once.

Try to get the sprue as tight as possible before you apply heat.  That means cutting the sprue as accurately as you can to get it as near the right length as you can.  That way the heat doesn't have to tighten it too much.  I've found that if I over-do the length too much, the sprue is reluctant to tighten up at all without breaking, melting and curling.

Usually I attach the sprue end to the mast first, then anchor it to the deck or the tie-down point.  Sometimes you just have to go with what works most conveniently.

I try to do as much rigging as possible with the sub-assemblies before I attach them to the hull.  It makes things easier than trying to maneuver and manipulate the whole completed ship.

Just keep plugging away at it, and take a break when it gets too much.  I built a Gloster Gladiator for the Airfix GB years ago--a biplane with lots of rigging.  I had to remove all the rigging from the first attempt and do the whole thing over.  That was a major lesson in both frustration and patience!

I think using sprue for rigging is more art than science, and it doesn't always go well--but then, what in modeling every does always go well?

USS Missouri in 1945 sounds like a really good choice; and with PE!  Another learning curve coming up.  As for bending it, I don't have anything except single-edge razor blades, and they usually work pretty well; but you're working in a bigger scale than 1/700.  I have given thought to getting a mechanical bender too, especially for rails that might be longer than a razor blade.

But, I've also read that some ship-modelers never apply railing in more than 2 inch lengths; makes them more manageable.

Good luck with Missouri.  You are obtaining some great results!

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 11:18 AM

Thanks, Clemens.  When the rigging actually turns out well for me, I think it's more luck than brains.

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 2:40 PM

SS, thanks buddy. The tracks are frustrating me at the moment, my first time with 251 Fruils. But I am struggling through.

Doug, sounds like your getting lots of great help here. I can feel your pain, I did a bi plane last here, an 0/400, and that was frustrating enough. As check says, keep at it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 5:07 PM

I'd try to put railings on your present ship. Get White Ensign generic 1/600 railings/ladders. They cost about $6 and should do just fine for your ship. I have no love for PE, but railings are a real must. Railings are also very simple to apply. The only thing to be careful about is removing them from the sprues. I use a #16 xacto blade and push directly down to cut the connecting points (they're very small and easily cut) or a scalpel blade and kind of rock back and forth. If you have a good pair of small scissors, they work very well - just cut through the outside of the sprue frame and cut the connecting points carefully. Actually I've found 21/2" blade scissors to be a really valuable tool for PE and rigging. A regular Xacto knife will work - just avoid trying to move it back and forth in a sawing motion - put on your readers and push the tip of the blade right on top of the connecting point. Easily done actually. Then you've got a string of railing maybe 3" long. I'd cut it - again pressing down, now sawing - into 1"-2" pieces. (You want to do this on a very hard surface. The best I think is black plexiglass - hard and you can see the PE very clearly.) I attach the pieces of railing with small dabs of Aleene's "Tacky Glue" (available at any craft shop and many hardware stores - incredibly useful stuff for $1.50). The "tack" will hold the very light weight pieces of railing. I then apply the smallest possible dab of Crazy Glue (CA) at each end to give it a stronger hold in the long run.

Everyone can model the way they want of course. But there's a reason why a lot of people avoid ships. If you want to do ships you need PE and you need to rig. If you're not a purist you can get away with generic ladders/railings - they're cheap even at 1/350 and $3 for 1/700. PE varies greatly in cost and complexity. White Ensign "extra fine" is for experts only. Tom's Model Works is very high quality. Eduard is less precise and thicker but easier to use - I'd give that a thumbs up. Freetime Hobby used to take phone calls and answer emails if there are different brands for the same ship. I'd start easy and work from there. The real fanatics get very elaborate PE sets from companies like Pontos that cost more than the kit, but you may never get to that point. Ladders are another serious embellishment and are actually very easy to make - especially if you skip trying to change the angles of the individual steps. (There are YouTube tutorials on that - maybe railing too.)

For bending PE you don't really need a complex tool. A little gizmo from the specialty maker of PE equipment Small Shop is priceless - and about $10. Here it is:

It's called SMS015 Photo Etch Cut-Off Set (from The Small Shop http://thesmallshop.com/). This is so simple I don't know why the ancient Egyptians didn't figure it out. It's a piece of clear plexiglass that's sharply angled on one edge and has a handle, and a couple of pieces of black plexiglass which help you see the PE very well. (That's one of the biggest problems with PE in my world - more tidy folk may find the need less pressing - but I lose the parts easily - unless they're sitting on black plexiglass and can be seen by the semi-blind.) You take the clear part, put it over the connecting points of the PE and cut right along it's edge and off they come and nopart flying around the room. The clear tool also makes an excellent basic bender. Just put the part underneath the clear thing (you can see it - that's why it's clear) and carefully go underneath a piece of PE with a razor blade or even Xacto blade and gently push up to the desired angle. (Ladders become a cinch.) Small shop also sells a pretty good small bending tool for $30 - you'd need to be hard core to need more. But you don't need that one either for the basics.

And you have to rig. No choice. It can be basic - should be basic until you get used to it. I would not recommend sprue for a beginner. Find a really light monofilament line - 1lb tippet material works nicely - or fly tying thread of about 6/0 in size. (Danville - a big company that sells through Cabella's has waxed threads that will grow taught with heat like mono or sprue. All of this stuff is cheap.) Use the simplest knot possible to attack one end. I've been known to add little bits of spare railing or ladder in strategic places just to create a connection point. With a knot - a half itch will do - will secure one end, then you can drag the other end to it's destination and tie a second knot or just wrap it over a mast or whatever and secure both sides with a dab of CA. I'd avoid the purist ultra thin lines like the plague unless you've got terrific eyes. But basic rigging like basic PE is easily manageable by anyone who has done three or four models of any kind. And basic rigging and basic PE make a huge difference. Earlier I showed some of my earlier ship kits that lack both and they really do look crippled even thought they were decently made. On the good side, a well made ship has a "wow" factor that can only be matched by a well made biplane. It's sure worth a try.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 5:08 PM

Thanks Bish, Hey one more question and I should know this but 1/600 is just a bit smaller than 1/535 right?

Nomad53


 

  • Member since
    October 2013
Posted by ajd3530 on Tuesday, December 2, 2014 8:06 PM

I had hoped to do the ICM kit, but considering it is now December, I have decided to do the Revelogram P-51B, for the sake of ease of build compared to the time left.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:15 AM

Yes: 1/600 is smaller than 535 - more than you'd think actually. There are 1/500 scale generic railings at Tom's - I think Heller built in that scale a generation back. They'd be a bit too large, but closer. Either one would be better than nothing - the 1/500 railings (they have simple ladders too) are $11. Scale Hobbyist has WEM 1/600 (lots of those because Airfix built to that scale for a long time and some of those kits are actually very good) - Scale Hobbyist has those for $3.59. The larger railing would be a little easier to handle, but not much. Below is an Airfix 1/600 Iron Duke (WWI RN flagship) that I did a long while back - it was the first kit I rigged and put on PE. A little crude but a real step forward from earlier work. The odd railings hung above the decks were the kind of radio antenna that late WWI ships used - I probably should have left it off. Now I would never weather a full hull ship either. The next full hull I do will be "commission day" - only enough washes and filters to give depth to colors and outline detail but zero weathering. Surface ships are just a little too abstract for serious weathering full hull because you never see them that way (a real ship in heavy surface would have a very weathered area below the waterline no doubt with marine growth etc: I'd do a sub that way because you think of subs sailing underwater.) Waterline ships beg for a little weathering - or in my case, usually a lot. 

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    February 2010
  • From: Berkeley CA/St. Paul MN
Posted by EBergerud on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:47 AM

Revell have low part count and I know they have their fanatics. My Revell JU-52 was a brilliant kit.. For build ease, though, I'd plug for any of the great 1/48 WWII fighters Tamiya put out around 2000. Oddly the 51B had a kind of ugly flaw on the front/bottom fuselage - and of course that's the one I built for this GB. But the otherwise the thing built itself. I've got a Corsair, Wildcat, 51D all from that vintage unbuilt. Accurate Miniatures also did a P-51B that is now sold by Academy. This was from the mid-90s AM range, and they are really sweet kits - but Academy is charging $35 for it. (You can still get the AM 51A for about $20 - that's one of the very few kits available I'd consider buying but the stash already kind of silly.) I see you've got the RevelloGram B25 on the list. I've got the AM version that's a kind of legend. And Academy is selling that one for $50. Good racket. (A WWII bomber GB would work really well I'd think. I'd build my Tamiya Betty or the AM Mitchell).

I'd sure bet you're right about the Revell being easier to manage than a c. 2000 ICM kit. I think ICM has done some decent kits in recent years, but in the past ICM sold models because Asian kits were so expensive in Europe. I built their 1/350 KMS Konig from 2000 and it was a bloody nightmare.

Eric

 

A model boat is much cheaper than a real one and won't sink with you in it.

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 8:58 AM

Hey There Gentlemen. I've applied all of the dark sea blue and removed all of the masking. I'm really pleased with the overall outcome. I had just a bit of over spray on the left side but, that is easily scraped off with a #11 blade. I'll take of the touch ups this morning and get an overall gloss coat on later. Thanks for having a look.

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Georgia
Posted by Rigidrider on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:06 AM

Alright Joe! Coming along nicely... you've really done a nice job on the seperation of the pattern, ie the gray and the blues. I assume your still using the "putty"?

Doug

When Life Hands You A Bucket Of Lemons...

Make Lemonade!

Then Sell It Back At $2 Bucks A Glass...

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 11:15 AM

Thanks Doug. Yup, still showing the love to me silly putty. Hope you are well.

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:03 PM

Really nice, Joe.  Terrifically attractive.  Great technique you employed there!

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 12:58 PM

Thanks Eric for all the info. I just ordered two sets of the railings this morning.

Okay here are photos of my rigging. Remember this is my first time at doing this but I think it came out okay.

Now to finish up all the small stuff and the rest of the pesky masking. Then on to the rest of the weathering. Another new thing for me with ships.

Doug

Nomad53


 

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:02 PM

Looking great Joe. Can't wait to see the rest.

Doug

Nomad53


 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:02 PM

Joe, I ain't much into Pacific subjects, but that scheme is really nice. Its looking great.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 1:03 PM

Doug, that's very not bad. Looks like all the help is paying off. Your braver than me.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    September 2003
  • From: AandF in the Badger State
Posted by checkmateking02 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 2:28 PM

Wonderful, Doug!  Nice work!  You are sailing along!

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2009
  • From: MOAB, UTAH
Posted by JOE RIX on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 2:36 PM

Bish, Doug & CMK, Thank you all very much. Your positive reinforcement is definitely providing the motivation to knock this out by the deadline.

Doug, I like your rigging. You did a really fine job on it.

I've finished up with the touch ups. I'd like to be making better progress today yet, I find myself distracted by perusing my stash for 1945 subjects. I'm finding that I actually have more candidates than I had anticipated. And thanks to the inspiration provided by CMK, Doug & Eric I got to digging through my ship stash. In addition to the USS North Carolina and USS Ticonderoga I found that I also have the IJN heavy cruiser Ashigara and HMS Nelson. Both of these kits provide for their 1945 configurations. So, I now find myself at an impasse as to what I want to build.

"Not only do I not know what's going on, I wouldn't know what to do about it if I did". George Carlin

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 2:38 PM

Looks like we will have plenty of ships for 45. Not that I am complaining, I will get to some ship models one day and always nice to get some ideas.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:37 PM

No problem at all Joe. I have gotten so much out of this build and have made some great friends also.

CMK: I know I have a lot of glue marks on my rigging. How do you get yours to look so smooth?

Doug

Nomad53


 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:49 PM

Doug, what glue are you using and how are you applying it.

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    May 2014
Posted by Nomad53 on Wednesday, December 3, 2014 3:59 PM

Bish,

I am using white glue or Aleene's clear gel tacky glue to hole them in position and then using CA to anchor it in place for good. I use a piece of stretched sprue to apply both. The sprue is the cut off ends.

Should I be doing it different?

Doug

Nomad53


 

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