BomberGruppe GB - 2007 (Luftwaffe Bombers)

jeaton01 wrote:

I've had the aviation affliction as long as you, Aggieman, and that has always been a point of thought to me.  I suppose I have resolved it by realizing that there are degrees of evil, and the Axis airmen were no more evil than Allied airmen, on balance.  I do doubt that I will ever build any airplane in Rudel's markings, and the Doolittle B-25's are ones I would defend to anyone, so there is an element of "it depends" to my decisions on what I build.

Hi all, im sitting here on the sidelines reading all this stuff and agree with the majority of it. The bit that made start rattling on the keyboard was Jeatons comments above. I only wonder why wouldnt you do a Stuka in Rudels markings, Jeaton?

Surely, to 99.9% of the modellers in this hobby, we are just making representations in a model, as close to the real thing as we can. And, i cant speak for everyone, but when someone sees one of the models that i have made, I take enormous pleasure in explaining the model, where its theatre of operations was, what i like about the model etc etc. I have absolutely no hesitation in adding swasticas to the fin, because that is what they had. I would hardly be making a good representation if i omitted something that was on the plane. I know history tells us of Rudels exploits, Hartmans, Barkhorns and to think of it 'Enola Gays' All of whome have been responsible for enormous destruction of men and machines. So lets all get a grip on this. These subjects are made even more interesting by thier exploits, wether we like them or not. So keep on modelling, and take pride in your abilities. Ensure that you explain the shortfalls and successes of subjects modelled and perhaps with more people modelling the likes of Rudel's Stuka, the more chance the youngsters, to whom WW2 was just a film, may just get an idea of the reality of War.

...Guy

PS, This is by no way shape or form, me having a go at anyone, its just the rambling of a 37 yr old englishman. I have seen your work Jeaton, and you like many others in the game are far better than I. I personally would like to see your representation of a late model JU57 in Rudels markings. By looking at the finished model, i would appreciate your talents as a modeller and thats it. It wouldnt mean to me, or anyone else that you were 'Pro' the Nazi regime.

Well, some good responses from the group on my question.  Let me make it clear that I am indeed having fun building these kits - building models has always been a fun activity.  To that end I don't take too much account of what ideologies particular aircraft may have represented, but I suppose in watching Downfall last night just drove home a point that these aircraft were indeed flying due to a hateful regime. 

I never intended to cast any Darth Vader-like characteristics on the men who flew them or maintained them.  For the most part they were soldiers doing their job, and they were caught up in circumstances that they neither had any control over nor had any responsibility for creating.

And I hope that no one thinks I'm sitting here in southeast Texas wondering if there might not be some closet neo-Nazis among our group, as that is not the case.  I think that we're all cut from a similar cloth - we like these old war birds and we enjoy putting lots of time, money and effort into building models of these aircraft.  No matter the political ideologies behind any particular aircraft.

I have also seen [i]Band of Brothers[/] and agree that it is an excellent work.  My favorite part is ... anyone care to guess?  ... of course the C-47 sequence in what was week 2's episode when the paratroopers were going in the night before the invasion.  But that movie was much more than that, and listening to the interviews with surviving Easy Company members was very gratifying.

Any way, back to happy times with our modeling!

carsanab wrote:

On a lighter note..... Has anybody eles built an MPM kit???are they all this bad with the fit?? nothing has alignment pins and the trailing edges are really thick.. Carlos

I built the MPM P-63A not long ago for the P-39 GB, and it had the same problems.  When it was done I liked it better, and it came out well.  Limited run is just like that, I guess.

I've enjoyed everyone's comments and I have to agree with most of them.  I have known people who have fought on both sides of the war and the one thing that has been impressed upon me is that they were all ordinary people caught up in extrordinary events.  The other thing I have learned over the years is the amount of hatred created by war.  Somethings in life are not easily forgotten.  I don't take my models out of the house very often but when I do I try to be carefull about what I show and where.  I know that some models and images will bring back painful memories for some people.  Myself I am facinated by a time in history where over a five year span they went from flying biplanes to Jets (well sorta).  I have no problem building a Nazi Plane because as mentioned they are an instrument only.  The politicts and ideas behind why it was built is another story.  Makes me wonder however how anyone could produce and market an Adolph Hitler Doll (I saw it advertised on a mainstream online store).  Go figure!!!

On a lighter note.....

man am I struggling with this 177...the fit on the parts is just terrible...ive spent the last three days dryfitting gluing, sanding, putty and more sanding just the tail stabilizers and rudder and i still have this seam along the whole fuselage to deal with. I am starting the main wings tonight. Has anybody eles built an MPM kit???are they all this bad with the fit?? nothing has alignment pins and the trailing edges are really thick..

I am going to put some pics together tonight..

Carlos

All 

I agree with Mucker....eventhough it is an interesting subject and sometimes puts us in  "reflection mode" the imprtant thing here is to remember that we are modeling the equipment not the politics and sometimes even the men, when we specifically choose a realistic subject.  As charles was pointing out , not all germans were Nazis and not all Nazis were evil, this I mean by military personel. Know a bit about the germans and the way they are so disciplined even the civilian population,that many just followed the orders given to them...and I know that doesnt excuse the ones who committed atrocities, they were defending their country...not all were engaged in brutality although they were caught up in it. There is a great respect for the german warrior in many books/movies and articles written after the fact. So I guess there is a spirit there worth recognizing. It may have been applied the wrong way but hey...not like we have been perfect in our history either...not to that extreme but yo all know what i mean.

The point is this is about having fun and building an interesting subject. I guess the fact that the technology was driven by madness means the results were and are extravagant and amazing solutions also, some bordering on madness for their time. If a by product of this hobby is making us all think and reflect on the brutalities of war no matter what side you are on because the end product is always death for one or the other, that will just make us better persons and better teachers for our kids and the future..

 lets all keep up the good work!!!

 my two cents worth.

PS..also the allied planes are just plain ugly....

Aggieman:

You raise a good question, and very nicely stated I might add. That thought did cross my mind, and I suppose I never said anything to that end when starting the group build. I hope it is a "given", but the BomberGruppe GB is intended to be as remote from politics as humanly possible. I would like this to be a GB in a vacuum, where we are recreating historical aircraft, focusing on the technology, design, size, etc. of a more focused period in time, more narrowly focussed on a particular country in this instance. There is no focus, intended on unintended, on war, idealism, politics, etc.

I know your intent wasn't to create a debate, but it's probably a good idea to make it clear that this GB is all about having fun.

That aside, I admire your comprehensive knowledge into one of my favorite historical periods. I am more of a "self taught" historian and have a passion for learning about the WWII era. It would be neat to visit the Natioanl WWII Museum with you, or someone like you who has a plethera of knowledge. That's just fascinating.

On the topic of movies, a few months back I watched an HBO movie on the fall of Berlin and Hitler's last days. I forget the name of it, but what really stood out to me was how brutal the defense of Berlin was. The movie did a very good job portraying the suffering and destruction in such a small area. Also, the factions that were starting to form in the bunker during the last days.

Finally, and this brings together both your first point and a great "movie": I finished up the DVD set "Band of Brothers" last night. Outside of how well the entire series followed a group of men through battle, showing the highs and lows of war. Before and after each episode are clips from the actual remaining soldiers from Easy Company, and their comments, as they reflect on their experience, were for the most part compassionate towards the soldiers of the enemy army. One of the more touching comments was (and I paraphrase) "he was doing his job and I was doing mine. We may have had a lot in commmon. He may have liked to fish and I like to hunt. In another time, we may have been really good friends".

Another scene in the final episode showed a surrendering German general giving his final address to his troops while an Americans look on and listen to a translation. They show the Americans listening on with respect and even admiration towards the German soliders.

I'd like to have that sentiment in this GB: we're recreating neat technilogical and historical warbirds while learning about them; we're learning techniques and polishing our modeling skillset, and hopefully we're even making friends from around the globe while we enjoy our hobby.

I've had the aviation affliction as long as you, Aggieman, and that has always been a point of thought to me.  I suppose I have resolved it by realizing that there are degrees of evil, and the Axis airmen were no more evil than Allied airmen, on balance.  I do doubt that I will ever build any airplane in Rudel's markings, and the Doolittle B-25's are ones I would defend to anyone, so there is an element of "it depends" to my decisions on what I build.

Beyond politics, just making the choice to build a military aircraft versus a civil aircraft and how to feel about that choice has been an area of thought.  I suppose the reason I build them all is because at some point any airplane is an expression of art and engineering that I find interesting to study.  It is too bad so much of aeronautical progress is the result of war and the preparation for war, but most likely the same can be said for my ultrasonic toothbrush.

Ok, a little off topic here.  I just finished watching an excellent movie about the fall of Hitler and Berlin called Downfall.  Understand that I have a sound foundation in the study of history, particularly the history of World War II and the world between 1918-1945, so nothing that I saw in the movie surprised me.  I knew who the people the actors were portraying before names were mentioned simply by mannerisms or whether they wore spectacles, or whatever.

Any way, in light of the real events of WWII and the Nazi's brutalities, and our participation in this group build, do you find yourself ever reflecting on what it is we are building here, what these represent to history? 

I am just a bit curious how others view these models.  I mean, most people familiar with aviation will likely recognize a B-17 or a P-51, but a Dornier Do 217?  And if they did recognize the 217 as a Nazi bomber, would they consider it differently in the light of history than a B-17 considering that these aircraft were flown by the - to use a tired term - "bad guys"?

I've been an aviation nut since I was very young.  My mother says she read airplanes books to me while she was pregnant with me.  I put my first model, a Monogram P-40B, together at age 3 (didn't do a very good job, but hey, I was 3!)  I love looking at the aircraft of WWII no matter their nationality, and I find it interesting that of all of them, the Nazi aircraft are often the most appealing.  Perhaps for their varied paint schemes, perhaps for the multi-uses, the way they turned a perfectly good fighter into a bomber, and so on.

But these aircraft were flown in the name of a lunatic who espoused the deaths of entire races of people and who took great strides toward conquering much of the world.  It's an interesting distinction of a Do217 vs a P-51 when taken in the light of "bad guy" vs "good guy".

Still, I'm going to build these models and put them on display in my house, and not give much more thought to what some of these aircraft represented.  And I do recommend the movie to anyone interested in this history (no aircraft were shown in the movie although occasionally one could be heard flying overhead).

mucker wrote:

Scott: Roster updated. I'm looking forward to your entry...have you decided on a camo scheme yet?

Thanks Mucker

I've been looking over my Ju88 references and man, there are so many cool schemes!  I'll wait to decide after I receive the kit (should be next week) and after I've reviewed the aftermarket decal sets etc.  It's going to be really hard to decide.  Some of the schemes are pretty complicated

Scott:

Roster updated. I'm looking forward to your entry...have you decided on a camo scheme yet?

Luftwoller wrote:

Just a real 'Why the hell didnt i think of that' moments.

Thansk again for the kind words.  And I know all about what you are talking about.  The way my brain is going these days I can't believe I even thought of that

Thx for that Wing-Nut. Just a real 'Why the hell didnt i think of that' moments. Absolutely stunning 111. You just end up running out of superlatives. STUNNING.

Mucker, you 110 is awesome as well. Any chance of a few more piccys?

...Guy

wing_nut wrote:

Tyhnaks Charles.  If you saw the description of the weathering... I found yet one more use for the Scoth Brite pad.  We have to keep it quiet though... If 3mM hears aboutit they will start charging $5 for a 2 sq. in. piece like other "hobby" supplies

Marc, No kidding! I'm an instant addict. Just like you state in your website, I can't imagine any piece of the model that won't be touched by the Scoth Brite. It's works miracles with seam lines. I'll make sure to try your method on my next winter camo.

Maybe we can beat 3M to the punch and market "Multi-Purpose Hobby Pads"?

DURR wrote:

i am sorry i asked to join your g/b but i must pull out i have also decided to pull out of modeling for at least a few months as well again  sorry for wasting your time

Durr, you haven't wasted anyone's time. Actually I appreciate you chiming in to let us know your plans have changed. High command has "re-assigned" your duty to allow you out of the GB without court martial (check the first page)

If life takes another turn for you in the future, we'll still hold a spot open for you. Either way, check in to say "hi" every now and then.

Marc:

Adding to the quality and aesthitic appeal of the weathering and finish, the paint scheme you chose is really cool, especially with the multi-colored underside. That would be at the forefront of my display case. Great build you have there.

Thnaks all, I do appreciate your comments.

Dave... I used white glue . Easier to get a nice little blob on there in one go. The CA does nto want to stick to the invisble thread to well. Then a touch of white when dry.

Absolutely spectacular Marc   Of all the wonderful detail one thing caught my eye.  The turnbuckles (or whatever they are called) on the antenae wire.  HOW DID YOU DO THAT?!?!?!  My guess is a drop of thick CA but I would never have thought of it myself.  Please clue me in!

Durr, sorry to hear you are bowing out for awhile but we'll all look forward to seeing you in a few months.  I hope all is well.

looks completely awsome wingnut.

great job.

Durr... You didn't waste our time.  Hope all is OK and we will be here when you get back.

Well a last minute schedule change and I had the morning off so I was get to wrap this one up.  Another fun GB.  Thanks Charles!  So here are the finished pics.

sorry to hear that durr.

hope to hear from you soon.

jason.

i am sorry

i asked to join your g/b but i must pull out

i have also decided to pull out of modeling for at least a few months as well

again  sorry for wasting your time

Hey...nice 100 Charles.  Looks great.

EDIT: Nice 110 even

Jason:

I can attest that their Bf110 is a solid kit. I picked up the Revell AG version a few years back. It is waaayy undervalued at $13. The interior detail is more than acceptable as OOB (no matter hwat kit you buy, there are always resin kits to upgrade with) and the fit was pretty dran good. Next time I run into the same kit at such a good deal, I'll pick up another.

It was one of my earlier builds, but I love the Wespe markings.

I've stayed away from certain Revell kits myself, but this one gets a double thumbs up from me. Eduard is planning to come out with a 1/48 Bf.110, also.

wingnut,aggieman,

awsome work here guys,

mucker,

my thoughts on the kit are pretty good with the exception

of the instructions on the different parts for the different versions.

they dont tell you witch parts go on for witch versions.

other than that i think its a nice kit.

i have tended to stay away from revell kits in years past,but i think

they are coming around.

i have have their bf110 kit in 1/48 scale and i hope its as good of a kit

as the condor.

jason.