Winter Warriors GB 2008

The Pz IV "Kharkov" is almost done, just waiting for a couple very small items to add, then its off to the paint booth.  I just need to determine if it should have a dark gray or dark yellow base coat.  I think it would look better with the gray, but I figure I need to be historically accurate and Field Marschall Von Manstein's notes point to the dark yellow bc.  I'll post pre painting photos tonight.

SMJ, here is a couple of links to some russian building/weathering articles and SBS's i have done this may explain it better.

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1703

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1458

http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=97632&page=1

As far as the whitewash goes i still have some weathering to do but as it stands i am satisfied with it the pics tend to illuminate the white more than it looks by eye bleaching out a lot of the discoloration.

The hairspray technique is as Dupes kindly explained although i heard about it on the web not the mag it is the same, the hairspray reacts with the water allowing the paint to be removed/lifted from the model in a very controlled manner.

Manstein,

EXACTLY how I like these threads to "play out"...Now I completely understand what you tried to achieve with this build.  You were gracious, we reached a "conclusion", and we are both the wiser because of it. 

I also have a book with Mig Jiminez's work in it (T34), really great stuff, in fact, it inspired my "whitewash" technique.

SMJmodeler wrote:

Manstein, I understand that you were trying to replicate several things, I guess I'm just not convinced yet.  Please don't get me wrong because I think I'm splitting hairs here and that is what damn fine looking build; but I think these types of discussions are what the forum is for and they help all of us improve.  If the front of the tank, as mentioned before, needed a "touch-up", wouldn't some of the old whitewash still remain?  Maybe a super diluted white spray with the airbrush, then a wash or two, then the fresh paint streaks.  Not debating you here Manstein, just thinking it through and asking for your input....

arki30 wrote:

I take it the hairspray helps on the whitewash removal?

Yes. What happens is (just like when you put it into your hair) the water on the brush loosens the hairspray layer, which flakes off, taking the whitewash with it. Leaving the future layer underneath. There was an article last month I think about doing a "hairspray hetzer" in...I want to say Tamiya Model Mag? Something like that. I'm sure Biffa can elaborate.

Manstein - I seem to remember the article mentioning a water based hairspray, but I don't know if there is such a thing (not much hair)? 

Biffa - looking real good! How do you like this method so far? After reading that article, I was tempted to give it a shot as well...glad someone beat me to it.

Ron-thanks for the info.

As far as your T-34...WOW!  Very impressive.  I'll be reviewing your documentation when I get to the weathering portion of my T-34.  Again, very impressive.

Manstein,

I understand that you were trying to replicate several things, I guess I'm just not convinced yet.  Please don't get me wrong because I think I'm splitting hairs here and that is one damn fine looking build; but I think these types of discussions are what the forum is for and they help all of us improve. 

If the front of the tank, as mentioned before, needed a "touch-up", wouldn't some of the old whitewash still remain?  Maybe a super diluted white spray with the airbrush, then a wash or two, then the fresh paint streaks.  Not debating you here Manstein, just thinking it through and asking for your input....

biffa:  A couple of clarifications please:

biffa wrote:

straight van dyke brown oil paint the sheen on the edges is a by product of the washes buffing the paint edges (i work the washes around a lot)... STRAIGHT VAN DYKE BROWN OIL, NOT DILUTED??? HOW CAN YOU WORK STRAIGHT OILS AROUND THAT MUCH  I MUST BE MISSING SOMETHING HERE... ...the paint its just applied with a scrap of sponge around edges and places i imagine would get scuffed i have a couple of articles showing this kicking around. SCOTCH BRITE TYPE PAD?...WHAT ARTICLES? closeup of the turret for you SMJ: IS THIS WHERE THE OIL IS STRAIGHT?  YOU MENTIONED BUFFING...

Thanks for taking the time to help me, I generally get what you're doing but I want to be sure I understand.  I plan to try your technique on my "Jimmy" and/or my Panther G.

OK, now your progress shots...absolutely stunning...I think I've been studying these photos for a half an hour already.  VERY convincing!!! The tow cables and other goodies on the  fender look superb.  I like your whitewash technique too, again very realistic,...of course I'm watching close to see how others achieve their look.

If I can offer some constructive criticism, and believe me I had a heck of a time finding anything that might help you.  I think the amount of "positive(white)" to "negative(green)" spaces on each surface are too similar.  The green to white is almost 50/50.  I'd wear some areas a bit heavier or at least dirty the white a little more with a "spot" wash.  This is hard to explain...maybe this will help...it lacks "focal" points.  The applications of each technique are masterfully done, but as I view it I want to be drawn into the model...help the viewer "experience" the model by "creating" these "points of interest".  Does that make sense? If you're going for late winter, I'd "steak some of that white too.  Remember it's a water base "whitewash" so it will wash down those vertical surfaces.  

Again, thanks for helping me with my questions.  I really admire your work...it's fun to watch this build progressing!!!

arki30 wrote:

Holy.... Ok, I quit part II.  I'm humbly going to put my little aircraft away and go find a nice quiet place to crochet.  I've lurked in the Armor forum enough to see your weathering "in action" Biffa, but this is amazing even for you.  I take it the hairspray helps on the whitewash removal?

Does the hairsparay need to be alcohol based?...what is the exact reason for the coats of hairspray---to ease in lifting the white off?

SMJmodeler wrote:

Manstein, I'm going to focus on your tank for purposes of this discussion, which I think is a good example of a winter camo' scheme...I also think it looks similar to my technique.  What I was trying to emphasize to tellis was that trying to get the look of a "shrunken paintbrush or mop" would be somewhat futile, I think we agree on that point, that is the why I directed him to my tutorial, if only for future reference.  This is the first I've seen of your winter technique so I'd like to comment on it now that you've posted it.  I particularly like the areas you airbrushed white, which appear to be a "diluted" or worn whitewash; but I think the front of the tank, specifically the spare tracks, vertical surface where the machine gun and driver's viewport are, and the driver's hatches, appear too white.  They seem too "freshly painted" in comparison to the rest of the tank IMO.  Again, in my camo' tutorial, I explain how I use several techniques to build up the whitewash effect, including the "brushed" look.  Here is my Stug III as a comparison of similar tanks, so we may continue this discussion...notice the similarities...???...and differences...???

Remember, I mentioned that on the tank I used several techniques to replicate different things. One of those things was "touch-ups"...meaning the crew would occasionaly apply fresh paint to worn areas which would appear "fresher" than the rest of the whitewash...

Holy....

Ok, I quit part II.  I'm humbly going to put my little aircraft away and go find a nice quiet place to crochet. 

I've lurked in the Armor forum enough to see your weathering "in action" Biffa, but this is amazing even for you.  I take it the hairspray helps on the whitewash removal?

Bobbaily, for this one and others which require tire painting i tend to use black so i dont have to paint the tires again but normally i use red oxide seeing as this was a common primer if any shows through it can be justified heh but any primer would work to be honest.

SMJ, what you saw in the pic was straight van dyke brown oil paint the sheen on the edges is a by product of the washes buffing the paint edges (i work the washes around a lot) as far as technique in applying the paint its just applied with a scrap of sponge around edges and places i imagine would get scuffed i have a couple of articles showing this kicking around. when i prime the models i do it in several coats using a rattlecan from every possible angle then i look from every possible angle to see if anything was missed if it was i touch it up if i cant see anything then noone else can either so i dont worry about it kind of like not painting the interior because why bother worrying if it cant be seen :) setting the airbrush to fine and getting close will prevent much overspray onto the tires and weathering or a quick touchup takes care of the rest. 

well i have an update,

first a closeup of the turret for you SMJ note that most of this weathering will be lost but i did it just incase

and an overall view

next i gave the model a coat of future then several coats of hairspray (i recommend at least four coats of arosol hairspray)

then the whitewash was airbrushed on (be sure to use acrylic paint if trying this)

then i began wearing down the whitewash with a brush and water i intentionally went for a very worn look ultimatly for a springtime dirty tank but this method is very controllable so you can do as little or as much as you like

in progress

and all worn down

time to weather the whitewash i started with washes of black and van dyke brown

after a few more washes and i was happy with the look i worked on some of the details and began with the pigments

i followed the pigments with more washes to blend them and tone them down

next up will be dirtying up the lower hull and tracks.

Manstein,

I'm going to focus on your tank for purposes of this discussion, which I think is a good example of a winter camo' scheme...I also think it looks similar to my technique.  What I was trying to emphasize to tellis was that trying to get the look of a "shrunken paintbrush or mop" would be somewhat futile, I think we agree on that point, that is the why I directed him to my tutorial, if only for future reference. 

This is the first I've seen of your winter technique so I'd like to comment on it now that you've posted it.  I particularly like the areas you airbrushed white, which appear to be a "diluted" or worn whitewash; but I think the front of the tank, specifically the spare tracks, vertical surface where the machine gun and driver's viewport are, and the driver's hatches, appear too white.  They seem too "freshly painted" in comparison to the rest of the tank IMO.  Again, in my camo' tutorial, I explain how I use several techniques to build up the whitewash effect, including the "brushed" look.  Here is my Stug III as a comparison of similar tanks, so we may continue this discussion...notice the similarities...???...and differences...???

SMJmodeler wrote:

tellis, Getting the brush stroke effect is nearly impossible.  In fact the effort is futile IMHO.  I address how to acheive the "whitewash" effect in my Winter Camo' Tutorial...did you see it?  Study your photo again, notice how some areas have no whitewash at all, or it's worn off...that variety is what needs to be replicated.  Go take a look at the toot' it's actually very easy to do and doesn't require an "out of body" experience.

Ron-very impressive work on your T-34.  One question-why do you choose black primer over say, grey or red oxide?

Thanks

Thanks Dupes.  This is my first attempt at building a Tristar kit and I must say I'm impressed with what I see in the box.  I've also read a lot of good things about the kit so I'm looking forward to building it.

Here is the scheme I'm going to try to replicate, I think it looks really cool and hopefully I can do it justice! 

espins1 wrote:

Hey Dupes, can you do me a favor and switch out my kit for this build to the Tristar 1/35 Pz. Kpfw. 38(t) Ausf. E/F?

Not a problem sir! I'm quite interested in your build actually, I've got a 38(t) Ausf.G I want to do up in Hungarian markings...the Maquette kit though. Figured if it was a complete dog I'd go to the Tristar version. Have you built any of their stuff before? I have their Pz.IV Ausf D I picked up for a song, looks AMAZING in the box.

biffa,

The technique you use in the "wear and tear added" step is phenomenal!!!  I've heard you are in a class of your own at this "chip & scratch" thing and I can see why.  The apparent "weight" gain of the tank and the resemblance to steel is amazing, I cannot commend you enough...I gotta try my hand at that.  Can you give me a little more detail on your Van Dyke oil paint technique...mix ratio, etc...Please take a real close-up of the turret if you would... Did you add any graphite yet?  I notice the edges have just a hint of shine...is that the Van Dyke oil too? Do tell, do tell...

I can see you're good with an airbrush, but there's no way on earth you can hit the insides of those road wheels with the base green color with those tracks on.  How do you address that or do you just leave them alone?  What about the wheelside face of the tracks?  I read you don't mind the overspray on the hull when you spray the tracks, but what about the overspray on the wheels?

Hey Dupes, can you do me a favor and switch out my kit for this build to the Tristar 1/35 Pz. Kpfw. 38(t) Ausf. E/F?  I've been having a blast researching some of the earlier German light tanks, because of my Pz.Kpfw. II Ausf. F for the War in the Desert GB.

I'm going with a Pz.Kpfw. 38(t) with the 19th Panzer Division, Russia 1942.  One of the schemes in the Color and Markings section is one with a well worn winter scheme that's just too gorgeous to pass up!  

Look forward to some progress pics later this week! 

Hey Dupes, i set my airbrush on fine and just get close and take my time i dont mind over spray on the lower hull behind the tracks in fact i intentionally do it because it assists in the weathering later, with this one i left the upper and lower hull seperate (because the fit was so good) untill after the painting was done then attached them for the weathering

biffa wrote:

broke down ready for painting

Looking good Biffa!

We'll excuse you from being negligent in your documentation so far...but now that the fun part is here (yay!), I'm going to expect complete daily reports.

How do you manage to not spray the hull when you're painting the tracks post-install? Some sort of mask? I've always wanted to try the "paint everything at once" method, but there are some items I'm not sure how I'd get at without making a mess.

Well guys i have been moving on with this although i didnt document the begginning of the painting i will give a brief explaination,

Painting.

step 1, the model was primed with rattle can black auto primer.

step 2, with the airbrush it then recieved its green basecoat i carefully did the centers of the wheels and lower hull leaving the tires black to save painting them by brush.

step 3, again with the airbrushed i painted the tracks again careful not to cover the tires.

once i was happy with the basic paint job it was time to begin the weathering.

Step 1, i gave the model an all over wash with a mix of burnt umber and yellow ochre oil paint

step 2, i gave the model an all over wash of van dyke brown oil paint.

step 3, the decals were applied.

step 4, i added some wear and tear using van dyke brown oil paint applied with a sponge.

Painted with 2 washes and decals on.

and the running gear

wear and tear added

a little more weathering and i will be ready to seal it in and apply the whitewash, i will try keep up with the progress pics a little better  

Absolutely Tellis! I hope that everyone else is having as good a time as I am...and hopefully learning something, too. Definitely a technique that I wouldn't have been terribly eager to jump into if I hadn't seen some other efforts in the same direction.

And we certainly can't have a ton of old, boring OD vehicles on everyone's shelves.

Larry - good to see you! Shoot us some pics! 

Biffa, thanks for the feedback. My next step is a wash (raw or burnt umber). You're right, it does need to be toned down, it does come across a bit "loud" until it gets weathered. This is my first group build, I am both humbled and inspired. It has been alot of fun to watch the progress of everyone and benefit from the feedback from fellow modelers.

Dupes, thanks for starting this one. My M36 would have probably ended up another OD green WWII vehicle on my shelf.

Dupes and Company - I'm still with it.  Just finished with the build and initial painting on the Academy M7 Priest. I'm way overdue with photos and updates, as well as looking at everyone else's progress.  I've been out of pocket quite a bit.  I'll try to get some pics posted this weekend.

Larry