2008 Airliner Group Build

Good day fellow airliner builders. I've begun my kit, the Minicraft 777.  Here are some in progress pictures. I've got the seam lines filled w super glue and sanded and I've hand painted them to find the flaws.  I'll go back an fix them. Then it's off to the paint booth.  I've also painted the wheels. They need some touch up work around the rims.  I'm going to do this one in the new Air India colors. Very pretty.

Neil

The economics from an airline point of view were pretty clear - transatlantic crossings make money. From BAe/Aerospatiale, it was a no-brainer. There were never going to recoup their development costs.

 

Thanks for the info. It's true that the economics should have been pretty plain from the beginning.

United was more seriously interested in the Concorde, it appears to me. They'd been a Douglas company for a while, so that might have been a factor. But the main reason they did not invest in SST programs beyond study was the impossible economics, which Concordes later inability to generate sales proved. Also, they had no foreign routes in the 1960's so supersonic flight was not a viable option, and the Air Force was getting enough criticism  already to convince airlines that sonic booms were not going to be acceptable over land.

The American SST designs which narrowed down to Lockheed and Boeing, and finally Boeing, were bigger, faster and more complicated than Concorde in terms of systems required for a normally trained crew to fly at Mach 3. And even more expensive.

I don't think the cause of the XB-70 crash in 1966 was more than bad luck, and it certainly didn't kill anyone on the ground, but my understanding is that United understood what a long and costly development program would be required to safely move 250-300 people at Mach 2 plus. And Sen. Proxmire certainly led the charge to throttle federal funding for the a/cs development.

Just my

I'm curious as to how the XB-70 crash put them off the SST concept. IIRC, there wasn't anything about the XB-70 design itself that contributed to the crash. Was it more of a PR thing?

cdclukey wrote:

I think the story was that BAC / BAe were hopeful of selling Concorde to SIA, and painted their livery on one to show them how it might look, and hopefully encourage them to buy it. Interesting! I do think that SIA was actually in on the flight ops, though, so it wasn't just a demonstration but a joint op. I think SIA would have been a logical customer though, considering the huge length of their routes.

Re: my earlier post it was a kind of prototype code share, which means that a flight transitioned through various airlines and schedules. But at the time, it was not a data base. The SIA Concorde was routed London-Bahrain- Singapore; mostly subsonic. There were only three round trips ever flown.

Concorde really only could have made a profit over the Pacific, but it didn't have the range. Several private owners bought a/c that were never delivered, the first being Robert Mugabe who built a Concorde capable field next to his mansion in Zaire. Second, Arthur Jones inventor of Nautilus gym equipment; Travolta owns his home and a 707.

United looked into the Concorde and leaned towards the Boeing SST, but the Joe Walker accident with the B-70 changed all that. My Dad came away from that quite shaken.

CD: I would like to amend the projects for this GB.... as I figured it would be a great opportunity to motivate the building of the airliners I've been wanting to do.

Gotta love a guy who steps up for a challenge! I'll make that edit right away, Frank.

Also, letting you all know that the "Piedmont Pacemaker" is currently in the hangar getting dressed out. I re-worked the LE Flaps, and in so doing, screwed up the foil above them, so I'm replacing that too. Since that area is bare plastic again, I'm also re-working the front of the engine mounts a little more. When all the stickyness wears off I'll attach all the probes, antennas, tubes, and wiper blades. The display base should be completed by that time, so then I'll open the doors, pull it out, and let you all see her!

On the one hand: Ouch! On the other hand: Can't wait to see it.

I think the story was that BAC / BAe were hopeful of selling Concorde to SIA, and painted their livery on one to show them how it might look, and hopefully encourage them to buy it.

Interesting! I do think that SIA was actually in on the flight ops, though, so it wasn't just a demonstration but a joint op. I think SIA would have been a logical customer though, considering the huge length of their routes.

cdclukey wrote:

Hey...did somebody mention the Concorde earlier in the thread? Here's one that showed up on ARC today: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal8/7001-7100/gal7031-Concorde-Goh/00.shtm I hadn't known Singapore Air had flown it. Well, you learn something new every day.

I think the story was that BAC / BAe were hopeful of selling Concorde to SIA, and painted their livery on one to show them how it might look, and hopefully encourage them to buy it.

Hi folks...

Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas & New Years!

Well, it looks like the Group Build is off to a good start! Cool!

CD: I would like to amend the projects for this GB.... as I figured it would be a great opportunity to motivate the building of the airliners I've been wanting to do.
(1) 1/144 Revell B738 modified into a B739, undetermined livery.
(2) 1/144 Airfix DC-9-30, "Playboy" jet.
(3) 1/144 Hasegawa NAMC YS-11, classic Piedmont Airlines livery
(4) 1/72 Modelcraft DeHaviland Dash-8, in either AirLabrador or Hensen/Piedmont livery.

Also, letting you all know that the "Piedmont Pacemaker" is currently in the hangar getting dressed out. I re-worked the LE Flaps, and in so doing, screwed up the foil above them, so I'm replacing that too. Since that area is bare plastic again, I'm also re-working the front of the engine mounts a little more. When all the stickyness wears off I'll attach all the probes, antennas, tubes, and wiper blades. The display base should be completed by that time, so then I'll open the doors, pull it out, and let you all see her!

Take care,
Frank

cdclukey wrote:

Hey...did somebody mention the Concorde earlier in the thread? Here's one that showed up on ARC today: http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal8/7001-7100/gal7031-Concorde-Goh/00.shtm I hadn't known Singapore Air had flown it. Well, you learn something new every day.

BA/Air France ran code-share (ish) flights of Concorde with a couple of airlines; Braniff and Singapore, where they repainted the left side. I think also Delta (?), but not repainted. That one on ARC shows this if you look at the photos. There was at least one flight where the ownership changed on each return, but I cannot recall which. Some of these only flew a handful of times, I believe that is true of the Singapore flight, which was subsonic. I think the one that crashed was a Delta code-share.

There was an ad on TV a couple of years ago for Virgin Atlantic that showed a Virgin Concorde on the ramp as a blink clip- very cool but Branson is way too smart for that. I've got a couple/ three page set of drawings somewhere of all the actual and proposed liveries- I'll try to find it. UAL was just awful, but some were real things of beauty like Eastern with the swoop.

cdclukey wrote:

OK...I'm stumped. What cockpit is that?

Taken June 2006 at the former Moffett Naval Air Station, looking up the crew ladder. Thanks for your interest.

Last night I painted the inside of the cockpit black (the Independence doesn't come with windscreen decals, so glass is the only option) and put together the cockpit floor and bulkhead. I managed to put the floor onto the bulkhead upside down...duhhhhhh...[drools in a slack-jawed fashion]...strangely the cockpit has a raised center console but no seats, not that they'd be all that visible through the tiny windscreen.

I also dry fitted the fuselage, and there's going to be some putty action, but the fit is good overall. Most of the seams are perfect or will be fine after some minor sanding. Tonight I'm putting in the nose weight and closing the fuselage, and I'll see how far I get with putty and such.

OK...I'm stumped. What cockpit is that?

cdclukey wrote:

BTW, apologies if I've asked this before, but is your avatar photo a shot of a KC-135 boom pod?

Nope, but it's hard to tell. here's a bigger pic.

I dry-fitted the fuselage of the Ju86 last night, and it's a little "pointy" on the seams. With some downward pressure, the contours look ok. If the kit bulkheads don't sort the pointiness out, then I'll have to think of some other way to do it.

I found a build review of this kit on Hyperscale, by the way. Criticisms included the lack of passenger seating, and the pilot seat as-supplied by Italeri. Bearing in mind that this is 1:72, I'm not going to quibble over it. The builder also suggested using a Mosquito instrument panel rather than the kit decal (white instrument dots over black background) but I have some Instrument Decals by Mike Grant, so we'll see how they go :)

The cockpit is assembled, but not painted. Tonight, I will think about painting the interior (pale green, according the instructions .. maybe RAF Sky will do?).

Sounds great, bondo. I think it will be beautiful just because it's a Caravelle. A lovely bird.

BTW, apologies if I've asked this before, but is your avatar photo a shot of a KC-135 boom pod?

I broke out the Caravelle and she's a beauty. I'm going to run a decal test this week, and if they work, I've got most of what I need. White on top, polished aluminum everywhere else, and I will have to paint the blue window band.

I have tapped into my Dad's lunch group, who were the original UAL engineers and pilots of this a/c. I'm waiting for answers on:

fabric control surfaces.

interior colors.

engine intake/ exhausts.

The Mach 2 kit is pebbly, so I'll be stroking the dolphin for a while.

Bondoman

Yeah whats up with that?

 

I hope this doesn't cross the line too far into politics, but it looks to me like Mr. Putin thinks he's Czar Vladimir the First, and he's rattling the royal saber. For some reason he thinks we've forgotten Russia is there. The Bear activity is meant to show the flag.

Hey...did somebody mention the Concorde earlier in the thread? Here's one that showed up on ARC today:

http://www.aircraftresourcecenter.com/Gal8/7001-7100/gal7031-Concorde-Goh/00.shtm

I hadn't known Singapore Air had flown it. Well, you learn something new every day.

One last thing: Aaron, I got my copy of the February issue and that Fairey Gannet you did is a sweet build.

cdclukey wrote:

If the bears keep flying we might see more A/C  Deja vu all over again.

Yeah whats up with that?

If the bears keep flying we might see more A/C

Deja vu all over again.

 Nothing stationed here. We get a lot of transit A/C Coast Guard HC-130s Canadian  P 3s Civilian L100s 737s  Our GS2 that is our R&R bird But we are a emergency landing strip for all Aircraft coming from Asia to the states so we can handle any thing If the bears keep flying we might see more A/C 

I work as a firefigher with CMI ( the contractor that maintaines the island ) Lots of snow and wind this time of the year..

Awesome, my Dad was a firefighter and my uncle is currently active. How much air activity do you see there these days now that the Cobra Ball and Rivet Joint (C-135 recon stuff) missions aren't staged from there anymore?

I KNEW I had a GB starting today. I'd better get a move on!

I was expecting to get my bird started when I got back from Wisconsin last night, but I was just too tired. Tonight I'm going to at least get the cockpit assembled and painted, which will be really weird, since I've been known to spend days working on a cockpit in 1/48!

Thanks I'll drop the C118 no problem I have several airliners back home I will have to look and see when I get home in March

 I work as a firefigher with CMI ( the contractor that maintaines the island )

Lots of snow and wind this time of the year..

J.J

I KNEW I had a GB starting today. I'd better get a move on!

urich wrote:

Hi all I would like to join this group if it is not to late.

Nope, you can still get in. In fact, let me say here that anyone can get in anytime in 2008 as long as their build will be finished before the end of the year.

This is my first GB. Can someone fill me in on how they work? My skills may not match up to some you guys here but I will give it my best.

All you have to do is build an airliner sometime during the year (starting soon is suggested, but not necessary) and share the occasional progress report with us, including pictures if you can. Then make sure you post some photos of the finished product.  

my build will be a 1/72 Heller TWA Connie to start. would a C-118 MAC fit in?

The Heller sounds great.  A cargo plane is outside the scope of the group build, but since it's basically a DC-6, I'm inclined to include it. However...there is currently a "Heavy Lifters" cargo plane group build here on Finescale (/forums/788511/ShowPost.aspx) it would fit in. Wirraway's running that and if you want to get in on it he'll take good care of you. If you really, really don't want to be in two builds at once, get back to me and maybe we can make some wiggle room, but I'd say take it over to the Heavy lifters build. I'm in that one and I think it's going to be great.

and can I add more a/c later in the build? I have several airliners in my stash I will not be able to get started untill my frist trip home in march. But I will have 5 weeks to get her done.

Absolutely, you can feel free to add more birds anytime.

BTW, what are you doing on Shemya? I used to be a KC-135 crew chief and Shemya was legendary in our community as a place you did not want to get orders to!

 Hi all I would like to join this group if it is not to late. This is my first GB. Can someone fill me in on how they work? My skills may not match up to some you guys here but I will give it my best.

my build will be a 1/72 Heller TWA Connie to start. would a C-118 MAC fit in? and can I add more a/c later in the build? I have several airliners in my stash I will not be able to get started untill my frist trip home in march. But I will have 5 weeks to get her done.

cdclukey wrote:

Gentlemen-- I edited the participant list...I guess I'm being anal but I wanted the list to be in a uniform format. Now you know why I'm an editor! I made some assumptions on scale and (in one case) manufacturer. Please check your listing and let me know right away if I've made it inaccurate in any way. I might not be back until 2008, so everybody have a happy New Years Eve and New Years Day!

I'm in. I've been corresponding with the United heads about control surfaces. No definite ruling on the Caravelle control surfaces yet, but it's on the way.

cdclukey wrote:

How do you handle the areas where paint was applied over the natural metal on the real aircraft, like the gray around the wing root? Do you trim the foil to match the edge of the paint, or do you lay down foil on the whole area and paint over it?

CD, Thanks, I trimmed the foil to meet the paint line... also, my entry is correct on your list, thanks.

John, Yes, painting is much easier sometime, in this case, it was a project saver because I was near the end of my tether after both decal applications failed. The hard part was masking without tearing the foil up. Had that happened, there would be no more updates.

For any who would be interested, here's an illustration of how I made the clear windows along the sides....

Have a nice New Years trip CD!

Later,

Frank