Red Storm on the Reich GB - Sept. 8, 2008 - May 9, 2009

wing_nut wrote:

Thnaks Scott, great bit of info.  I was gonna buy 'em anyway.  Good timing.   I received, and cashed in already, a gift cert for Fathers Day.  These are beeing shipped as we spaek... errrr... type

Nice!  That should be a sweet build! 

Thnaks Scott, great bit of info.  I was gonna buy 'em anyway.  Good timing.

I received, and cashed in already, a gift cert for Fathers Day.  These are beeing shipped as we spaek... errrr... type

mmc wrote:

I done a bit of digging and I've decided to go with the Sd.Kfz 7/2 with Flak 37.

I looks like they were produced until February 1945 and served with Luftwaffe flak units, so you should be good to go. 

wing_nut wrote:

Scott, I managed to find some info regarding the Ulrich von Hutten Div.  Difficult to Google it without getting a zillion hits about the real guy born in the late 1400's. So I started searching the Google images and I found a photo of a German tank and followed that to the WWII in Color forum and there was a discussion of some armor from the 3rd Panzer Jager Abt. that was attached to the Infantry Division "Ulrich von Hutten in Berlin, April 1945. So, what do you think?  Can I do the Sd. Kfz. 234?

Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

History and Organisation

The division was formed in 1939 in Dresden, in the second wave of mobilisation (it was nicknamed Gekreuzte Säbel, 'crossed sabres', after the divisional symbol). After taking part in the Invasion of France in 1940, it spent the remainder of its existence on the Eastern Front, mostly with Army Group Centre. One of its early commanders was Paul von Hase, later executed for his role in the Widerstand, the German resistance movement.

Following heavy losses in 1943, the division was dissolved and its staff (along with remnants of Infantry Regiments 171 and 234) was incorporated into Korps-Abteilung D together with elements of the similarly depleted 262nd Infantry Division. This was itself largely destroyed to the west of Vitebsk when Third Panzer Army failed to hold the salient around the city during the Soviet offensive of June 1944, Operation Bagration.

Korps-Abteilung D was reformed, once more as the 56th Infantry Division, in East Prussia late in 1944. The Soviet East Prussian Offensive in January 1945 pushed Third Panzer Army west towards Konigsberg, and the division was finally encircled and destroyed in the Heiligenbeil pocket, only around 250 men managing to break out westwards to Pomerania (the divisional staff, along with that of 18th Panzergrenadier Division, reformed as the staff of the Ulrich von Hutten Division, which participated in the Battle of Halbe).

So given that the unit served exclusively on the Eastern Front after it was deployed up until the end of the war, you should be good to go!   

Scott, I managed to find some info regarding the Ulrich von Hutten Div.  Difficult to Google it without getting a zillion hits about the real guy born in the late 1400's. So I started searching the Google images and I found a photo of a German tank and followed that to the WWII in Color forum and there was a discussion of some armor from the 3rd Panzer Jager Abt. that was attached to the Infantry Division "Ulrich von Hutten in Berlin, April 1945.

So, what do you think?  Can I do the Sd. Kfz. 234?

wing_nut wrote:

HEY... Speak for yourself...     OK... you're right

tigerman wrote:

Since you're starting this at about the time I was going to start my next one, I might jump into yours and postpone my idea. No biggie. I'd lean to my AFV Club Pak-40. I might actually finish in the alotted time. LOL Here's a few refs for the battle: The Fall of Berlin, by Antony Beevor Stalingrad to Berlin, by Earl Ziemke Battle for Berlin, by Earl Ziemke

Thanks Tigerman, I read the Fall of Berlin last year, excellent book.  I enjoyed Antony Beevor's Stalingrad book as well.    Reading those about those events really makes me appreciate how fortunate I am in that I didn't have to live through those cataclysmic times.   

HEY... Speak for yourself...

OK... you're right

Glamdring wrote:

espins1 wrote: She's only about 5 ft tall and very teeny I'd like reference pictures of that.

She's a really cute little firecracker, is in killer shape and a lot of fun to work out with.  Too bad she's about 15 to 30 years too young for most of us and waaaay out of our league.   

espins1 wrote:

She's only about 5 ft tall and very teeny

I'd like reference pictures of that. 

wing_nut wrote:

I am most definitely in on this GB.  Only question is ... what to build.  I have a 3 in 1 Tiger I in the pile so would a final production Tiger I qualify?  If so, would it have had zimmerit applied at that stage? My 1st choice though is a Sd.Kfz. 234/3.  Doing a little research this morning if read that it produced until Dec 1944 so the time frame is right.  The Dragon kit comes with markings for one that was with the "Ulrich Von Hutten" Division, Germany 1945.  Anyone have any info on the Division?  If it turns out they were engaging the Yanks and Brits to the west, would that disqualify it for a "Red Storm" GB? Or is just having the right time frame good enough? I would do my KingTiger, but I can't wait 'til Sep. to start that

I'll do some checking later today. Getting ready to get tortured by my fitness trainer from 11-12 today.  She's only about 5 ft tall and very teeny, but man does she work my butt off! 

JMart wrote:

As for me, Ill build the old Tamiya T34/85 and try not to bring the quality of the GB too far down :)  Cheers

JMart:  I'll be building that old Tamiya T34/85 too...hopefully we can do it some justice and together we'll bring the quality of this GB UP!!!

Glamdring wrote:

I'm glad we're allowing the Maus.  Now, to start the research to get it right, since there was only 1 of them battle ready.

Me too, that's going to be a cool build! 

JMart wrote:

Excellent list of reference and info.... may I humbly suggest another excellent book? Armageddon - The Battle for Germany 1944-1945  by the eminent historian Max Hastings (author of Overlord and many others). A tad on the academic side, reads more like a Keegan book than an Ambrose one. Goes in depth into some of the reasons behind the events, but also contains LOADS of detailed combat info (no pics though ;)   As for me, Ill build the old Tamiya T34/85 and try not to bring the quality of the GB too far down :)  Cheers

I still have a lot more book references to put up on the first page, just haven't had the chance to do it yet.  And please, if anyone has any recommendations, let me know and I'll add them to the first page.  There is a lot of great reference material out there and great reading! 

espins1: Nothing like the excitement of joining another great GB!!!  Put me down for a T-34/85 for now please.  Let me check the stash for German qualifiers and get back to you.

HIGHLY recommended resource: Osprey's Modeling the T-34...I know I'll have it near the workbench!

Since you're starting this at about the time I was going to start my next one, I might jump into yours and postpone my idea. No biggie. I'd lean to my AFV Club Pak-40. I might actually finish in the alotted time. LOL

Here's a few refs for the battle:

• The Fall of Berlin, by Antony Beever
• Stalingrad to Berlin, by Earl Ziemke
• Battle for Berlin, by Earl Ziemke

i don't know if i'd have time for this build, but a quick question, Do you think lend lease tanks like shermans would be in use this late in the war?  I know Academy has a russian service sherman.

thanks

Hermesminiatures wrote:

And Dupes, you should start thinking about guidelines and an official post for the 251 GB, we've been talking about it for forever and an age...start sometime in the fall and run for 251 days. Or something like that

Hermes - good idea. I'll get on it this week...I know there's a lot of people chomping at the bit for that one.

Like the 251 day build span as well.

After much thinking I've narrowed the choice to either 8 ton semi track with flak 37 (the older one with the armoured cab) or a Jagdpanzer IV L70 Lang.

Could anyone let me know if these fit in with the time scale

Cheers, Mark 

I am most definitely in on this GB.  Only question is ... what to build.  I have a 3 in 1 Tiger I in the pile so would a final production Tiger I qualify?  If so, would it have had zimmerit applied at that stage?

My 1^st choice though is a Sd.Kfz. 234/3.  Doing a little research this morning if read that it produced until Dec 1944 so the time frame is right.  The Dragon kit comes with markings for one that was with the "Ulrich Von Hutten" Division, Germany 1945.  Anyone have any info on the Division?  If it turns out they were engaging the Yanks and Brits to the west, would that disqualify it for a "Red Storm" GB? Or is just having the right time frame good enough?

I would do my KingTiger, but I can't wait 'til Sep. to start that

Excellent list of reference and info.... may I humbly suggest another excellent book?

Armageddon - The Battle for Germany 1944-1945  by the eminent historian Max Hastings (author of Overlord and many others). A tad on the academic side, reads more like a Keegan book than an Ambrose one. Goes in depth into some of the reasons behind the events, but also contains LOADS of detailed combat info (no pics though ;)

As for me, Ill build the old Tamiya T34/85 and try not to bring the quality of the GB too far down :)  Cheers

Hermesminiatures wrote:

espins1 wrote: I know there was some speculation as to whether or not any were actually produced.  Daimler-Benz representatives were not asked about, nor did they comment on, their success in producing a few Panther Ausf.F at the Daimler-Benz assembly plant in Berlin-Marienfelde. But with a report it was possible to prove due to the Fgst.-Numbers that all Panthers which were delivered in the final days of the Reich by Daimler-Benz before production ended on 24th April 1945, were of Ausf.G type.  If some few Panther F would have been completed, they would have been handed over to II./Panzerregiment 2 in April 1945, for immediate action in the defence of Berlin. Did that quote come from this article? It seems a little loose in differentiating between Panther F and Panther II. The Cyber-Hobby Panther F is the Schmallturm mounted on the G chassis, not a Panther II chassis. There were at least two photographically documented Ausf G's mounted with the F turret, and lots of spare parts lying around at the DB factory. I think that a G with F turret would have had a pretty good chance of seeing some combat...as good as the Maus. If you'd prefer I build something else, I have a Hetzer I could do. The guidelines would get kind of sticky here, though, as far as what's allowed - do you need a picture, did it have to see combat or just exist in the specified time period, etc. Personally I think things like the Maus and Panther F would be fine, since they fit well with the last defense idea, and they do have some evidence going for them and aren't totally weird Panzerwaffe '46 designs. Either way, though, it's not a big deal.

Sold! 

I think both the Maus and the Panther F, in the instances we've discussed so far, would be totally allowed as they are in the spirit of this GB and the final desperate days of the Reich.  I just wanted to be careful not to open the flood gates for a slew of paper panzers and what ifs, if you know what I mean. 

espins1 wrote:

I know there was some speculation as to whether or not any were actually produced.  Daimler-Benz representatives were not asked about, nor did they comment on, their success in producing a few Panther Ausf.F at the Daimler-Benz assembly plant in Berlin-Marienfelde. But with a report it was possible to prove due to the Fgst.-Numbers that all Panthers which were delivered in the final days of the Reich by Daimler-Benz before production ended on 24th April 1945, were of Ausf.G type.  If some few Panther F would have been completed, they would have been handed over to II./Panzerregiment 2 in April 1945, for immediate action in the defence of Berlin.

Did that quote come from this article? It seems a little loose in differentiating between Panther F and Panther II. The Cyber-Hobby Panther F is the Schmallturm mounted on the G chassis, not a Panther II chassis. There were at least two photographically documented Ausf G's mounted with the F turret, and lots of spare parts lying around at the DB factory. I think that a G with F turret would have had a pretty good chance of seeing some combat...as good as the Maus.

If you'd prefer I build something else, I have a Hetzer I could do. The guidelines would get kind of sticky here, though, as far as what's allowed - do you need a picture, did it have to see combat or just exist in the specified time period, etc. Personally I think things like the Maus and Panther F would be fine, since they fit well with the last defense idea, and they do have some evidence going for them and aren't totally weird Panzerwaffe '46 designs. Either way, though, it's not a big deal.

bufflehead wrote:

Scott, put me down for either a Tamiya or DML JS-II!  I'll know which one as soon as I'm done with my trip.  I'm so glad the start date is Sept. 8, it will give me time to finish all the unfinished GB kits I have sitting on the shelf!

I hear that buddy.  I've got a few builds that I need to get done before Sept.