Which Tamiya color for German armor?

Ixion

Karl, AFAIK, the Kotzing Pz IV photo is what started the whole Lime Green Craze. I didn't come up with this, I'm just reporting it. A lot of people, especially on other forums, take this photo, and others, as evidence for the use of this color. Do I paint my vehicles this color? No...Do I think there are some weird looking photos that are in need of explaination, yes. If this subject fit neatly in a box, someone would have written the definitive work on this subject by now, a task not even Thomas Jentz managed to finish. Then we wouldn't be stuck here trying to interpret these images.

I agree, it's the "In your Face" lime green, bold, solid and primary, that is bothersome. It looks like the sort of Key Lime Pie color your grandma's bathroom might have been painted, it's wrong. It's like the baby-blue Dunkelgrau we see everywhere, crikey...the actual color is almost black! Then there is the whole "bare primer showing" craze too. I think it's way over-done. But then there are a few oddball photos and unrestored vehicles the suggest that maybe there is a kernel of truth here. This Jadgtiger is one of them....maybe. I wish I knew more about the origin of this photo. I know the vehicle, the unit, the crew members, the town, the date, but who took the photo and what film did he use?

I'm well aware of color-shift, fading, yellowing, and a whole host of other issues effecting old photos, I'm as much into photography as I am into this hobby. It is difficult to interpret much of anything color-wise from these old photos, but I think we need to keep an open mind about what colors were actually used, particularly near the end of the war. Mixed paint, substitutions, poor solvents, weathering, fading, yadda yadda...it all adds up to one big mess.

I'm not saying "Paint your model the color of your grandmother's bathroom", more like; "Hey, look at this weird color, I wonder what that's all about."

As a final thought, everyone has a different perception of color. There are online color sensitivity tests one can take to see where one falls on the continuum. It's just another variable.

 

I stand firmly that there is NO light green on the Jagdtiger. The only green I see is on the exhaustt housings and that looks within the range of normal to me.

Great discussion though, and thanks for the cool photographs! 

Basicly you have your three basic colors for use on German armor from 1943 onwards. Then you throw in variables of all sorts. And of course late war added variations from shortages, use of non standard stocks in occupied lands as replacements, etc. The possibilites increase for variation. But as long as you start from a reasonable point, and use good references, you can run from there with plausibility.

Karl, AFAIK, the Kotzing Pz IV photo is what started the whole Lime Green Craze. I didn't come up with this, I'm just reporting it. A lot of people, especially on other forums, take this photo, and others, as evidence for the use of this color. Do I paint my vehicles this color? No...Do I think there are some weird looking photos that are in need of explaination, yes. If this subject fit neatly in a box, someone would have written the definitive work on this subject by now, a task not even Thomas Jentz managed to finish. Then we wouldn't be stuck here trying to interpret these images.

I agree, it's the "In your Face" lime green, bold, solid and primary, that is bothersome. It looks like the sort of Key Lime Pie color your grandma's bathroom might have been painted, it's wrong. It's like the baby-blue Dunkelgrau we see everywhere, crikey...the actual color is almost black! Then there is the whole "bare primer showing" craze too. I think it's way over-done. But then there are a few oddball photos and unrestored vehicles the suggest that maybe there is a kernel of truth here. This Jadgtiger is one of them....maybe. I wish I knew more about the origin of this photo. I know the vehicle, the unit, the crew members, the town, the date, but who took the photo and what film did he use?

I'm well aware of color-shift, fading, yellowing, and a whole host of other issues effecting old photos, I'm as much into photography as I am into this hobby. It is difficult to interpret much of anything color-wise from these old photos, but I think we need to keep an open mind about what colors were actually used, particularly near the end of the war. Mixed paint, substitutions, poor solvents, weathering, fading, yadda yadda...it all adds up to one big mess.

I'm not saying "Paint your model the color of your grandmother's bathroom", more like; "Hey, look at this weird color, I wonder what that's all about."

As a final thought, everyone has a different perception of color. There are online color sensitivity tests one can take to see where one falls on the continuum. It's just another variable.

Ixion, not to be impertinent, but where exactly do you see "lime green" on that Pz IV? I see a tank in DY and Pz Red-Brown, possibly in primer, but I don't see green on it anywhere. 

I understand that the Pz Green can look lighter if heavily diluted, but the "lime" I am talking about has heavy undertones of yellow; hell It's almost pastel. And it's applied not as a thin, see-through coat, but as a main color, just beaming and happy and smiling at ya, if you catch my drift, Lol, It always strikes me as somewhat bizarre. 

I believe that Sdkfz there is perhaps over coated in primer red? But perhaps not?

One thing you can never be sure of in these "color" photos is how much "time" has colored or aged or faded the colors. There's always room for variations, but I prefer to go with something of a more conventional shade. To each his own though....

Wow. Looks like I found the right forum. As to the amount someone suggested that one or two bottles would do several models, this beast is 1/6 scale. It has taken over 5 rattle cans of self etching primer so far.

I am wondering how many bottles my initial order should be.

A higher resolution image exists of this Jagdtiger, believed to be taken from a Kodachrome slide.

The whole story;

http://www.network54.com/Forum/47207/message/1434028469/Color+Jagdtiger+Picture-

Objects in this photo show far greater color resolution to be colorized, IMHO. I have several different BW images of this Jagdtiger, I have never seen this photo as a BW image, from which someone would have used to colorize into this image.

The well known Kotzing PzIV color photo shows the same lime green;

These strange colors could simply be blended paints, mixing dark yellow with dark green to produce a lighter color green. Conversely, they could just be extremely thinned panzer olive sprayed over yellow, producing this effect.

Black was never officially stated to be used as an exterior color on panzers, but we have this NSU Springer at Bovington in it's original paint;

Some might argue that the yellow is too dark or too saturated, the brown is too orange and the black, well, it just doesn't belong there at all. But here it is.

There is also this photo of a 251D;

The lighter, orange-brown looks like a simple mix of dark yellow and red brown.

And finally, this RSO door;

There's that lime green again, but it's really just a thin coat of normal panzer olive over the dark yellow, making it appear lighter in tone.

Ixion

I too was skeptical of the lime green color that seems to be all the rage these days, then I saw this;

But then there is the color shot of the Octopus Tiger II where the green appears almost black, or more like a dark field grey;

A lot of latitude for sure between these two, for what should be the same color.

 

I'm also not so sure that that first photo hasn't been colorized? 

I too was skeptical of the lime green color that seems to be all the rage these days, then I saw this;

But then there is the color shot of the Octopus Tiger II where the green appears almost black, or more like a dark field grey;

A lot of latitude for sure between these two, for what should be the same color.

jgeratic

Was not Tamiya's XF-61 intoduced for RAF aircraft?  Suppose though any colour can be used if manipulated enough. 

Field Gray was used for German equipment like ammo boxes, and is the colour of their uniforms.  Most sites give XF-65 olive Green as the camou paint for vehicles.

http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html

regards,

Jack

 

And correct you are about the designated color for gear, et al, but in Tamiya's case, they seem to have mislabelled this particular color. Panzer green has a grayish base tone to it, and this color is closer to the real color than anything else in their range in my opinion, comparing it to actual remnants and artifacts from WWII that I've seen. That 61 color is definitely more of a Forest Green, if I recall? But like I said, in the end, it's your model and your choice. 

Zombie thread!!!

That aside, I do like Tamiya Olive Green for that color. And another color choice from their line is Hull Red, for use as the Red Oxide primer seen as the base color on German AFVs produced from Fall 1944 thru Spring 1945. 

Was not Tamiya's XF-61 intoduced for RAF aircraft?  Suppose though any colour can be used if manipulated enough. 

Field Gray was used for German equipment like ammo boxes, and is the colour of their uniforms.  Most sites give XF-65 olive Green as the camou paint for vehicles.

http://www.miniatures.de/colour-ral-farben.html

regards,

Jack

Thylacine

Hey, Guys i am a complete newbie to model painting, With the exception of having to paint an LSD-39 in the Navy while dcrossing the pacifc several times...

I have been building a Armortek midproduction Tiger I, without zimmerite and am scared to death of the painting process.

 

I am looking to replicate one of the early mids that did not have zimmerite sometime just after kursk.

I am probably going to use the paints mentioned above. Any idea how much I  shoudl buy?

 

Any advice or direction will be deeply appreciated.

 

Hey, Guys i am a complete newbie to model painting, With the exception of having to paint an LSD-39 in the Navy while dcrossing the pacifc several times...

I have been building a Armortek midproduction Tiger I, without zimmerite and am scared to death of the painting process.

I am looking to replicate one of the early mids that did not have zimmerite sometime just after kursk.

I am probably going to use the paints mentioned above. Any idea how much I  shoudl buy?

Any advice or direction will be deeply appreciated.

What Doog said... Field-applied camouflage paint was done from a gasoline-soluable paste that varied greatly in color fidelity as to how much fuel was mixed with it...  More gas = lighter shades, less = darker shades.. It not only varied from unit to unit, it varied from vehicle to vehicle in the same unit...

Vehicles with air-compressors were used to supply the air to the paint-guns used in the field (if the unit had some, which was not always the case) by the crews for repaints, rather than going to the rear for it... The one German field paint-gun I saw (years ago)  looked kinda like an MP-40 with a paint-pot in place of the magazine... 

Hmmm... That would make an interesting diorama...

Thanks, Doog.  Once again, this forum is full of information and helpful hints.

Michael 

Mixael wrote:

Thanks for the replies.  One more question..should the other colors be cut with something also, or used "straight"?   Michael

Thanks for the replies.  One more question..should the other colors be cut with something also, or used "straight"?

Michael

Tamiya Dunkelgelb is OK as a base tone, so long as you are going to post-shade it with lighter versions of the colour:

If you are going to do camo on top of it though, let it down with 80% Tamiya Buff for sure:

Cheers,

Chris.

Make sure you don't spray the Dark Yellow straight out of the bottle--cut it with at least 70% White, or 80% Buff. That way when you weather it it will not look too dark. Even if you don't "uber-weather" it, it wouls still be too dark.