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First Time AB'ing Tamiya Acrylics (and a couple of other ???'s).............

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  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
First Time AB'ing Tamiya Acrylics (and a couple of other ???'s).............
Posted by Hinksy on Thursday, January 7, 2010 5:33 PM

Hi lads,

Righto. I'm going to begin my Cromwell build this weekend and, as recommended, I'm going to be using Tamiya acrylics.

When you lads use this through the AB by what ratio do you like to thin it?

When I was using enamels I was told to use Future to protect the enamel paint from the thinner in the washes and also to help decal application. Do you still use Future when using acrylics or will Decalfix/Micro-Sol suffice?

Wash wise, will I be ok to apply an enamel wash made with enamel thinners straight onto the acrylic paint surface?

Any other helpful hints and tips that you can pass my way for working on acrylics which is pretty new to me I'd very much appreciate.

Finally, how do I get a 'pre-shade' to work properly?

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    December 2007
Posted by eindecker on Thursday, January 7, 2010 5:47 PM

I use Tamiya acrylics whenever possible. I use Tamiya acrylic thinner even though some claim that alcohol is the same, I don't think so and it's cheap enough that I don't sweat spending an additional $5 to paint maybe 10 or 15 models with it. My advice is thin your paint much thinner than you think it should be thinned. Spray a test shot and make sure you don't get watery spider patterns. That would be too thin. But in general I try for at least 50/50.

Preshading is easy. Use a dark color, black, dark gray, etc. and spray coarsely over the main panel lines and places where sides or edges come together (a natural shadow area). You don't have to be careful, stay within the lines, or worry about getting paint in other places. This actually is good, since real paint jobs are not uniform anyway and it will add to the randomness you are after. I will spray blotches of the dark color in random panels, sometimes in the center, sometimes not.

After this dries, you come back with a thin mix of your basic color(s) and apply successive light coats. Successive light coats. Emphasis on light. So that the dark areas you sprayed before are just visible through the paint. It is easy to stop too soon. The effect should be very subtle especially on aircraft. If it's too much contrast, your model will have a patchwork quilt kind of look. The shading should be apparent, but barely. It works when a viewer sees your model, notices the paint is not uniform (like the real thing) and thinks he might see some shadows and shading underneath the paint.

This is much easier than I've made it seem. Just go ahead and do it. If it shows through too much, just apply a little more of the top coat. If you cover it up too much in places, there is a technique called, get ready for it... post shading that will fix it and is pretty good on it's own.

 

 

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Thursday, January 7, 2010 6:23 PM

Hi Ben,

Yes, as stated above, Tamiya acrylics airbrush best when well thinned.  For single colours/base coats, I odten thin up to (and sometimes beyond) 75% thinner to 25% paint, and apply in multiple thin coats.

Having said that,  I use a double-action brush with an adjustable air source. You're using a single-action brush and, for the moment, canned air. You have a limired ability to adjust your air pressure and paint flow, so you may have to compensate for the  lack of pressure control by varying the distance from the airbrush to your model.

So I would suggest, as above, approximately 1:1 as a starting point. Practice on some scrap first and find the "sweet spot" for your paint setting, the distance at which the paint goes on wet without running, and "dries" shortly afterwards (say, about 5-10 seconds). Closer than this and the paint will pool and run. Much furtherthan this and the paint will dry in the air before it hits your model, leading to a gritty, dusty finish. Apply in multiple thin coats, don't try to achieve full coverage in one pass. 

Tamiya acrylics are "touch dry" in minutes, if not seconds, when airbrushed, but still require sufficient time to cure (about 24 hours) before they're fully hardened.

You will still need to apply a gloss coat for your decals, but when it comes to washes, the paint itself will stand up to enamel thinners (white spirits?) quite well.

Whether you need to gloss the entire model for weathering /washes is an oft-debated subject. Some do and some don't. It really depends on individual technique and what effects you want to achieve.

PS: Tamiya acrylics clean up very vell with methylated spirits, so don't waste your Tamiya thinner for cleaning. Smile

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Thursday, January 7, 2010 6:46 PM

What Phil and eindecker said. I use 2% milk as my guideline and the percentage can vary from 60-85% (50% would not be unheard of). With adjustable airflow, you have more leeway and can spray ridiculously thin paints, it just doesn't cover very well!

I use Tamiya exclusively, as well as Future. I use Future with Tamiya Flat Base for flat coats.

I use ZEP brand window washer with Ammonia to clean up, and keep the Tamiya thinner for thinning. Most window wash fluid is Isopropyl Alcohol, water, ammonia and coloring. So Isopropyl Alcohol will work (it IS the main ingredient in Tamiya) as a thinner, but it needs an acrylic retarder to prevent tip dry, and using straight alcohol tends to flatten gloss paints.

I do a final rinse with distilled water, as ammonia can discolor the chrome finish on airbrushes. I use distilled water as the water in my area is very hard, and one thing you don't want in your AB is calcium deposits!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2008
  • From: Goffstown, NH
Posted by New Hampshire on Thursday, January 7, 2010 7:19 PM

As mentioned it will depend on your airbrush.  A good example is that I have a Badger 175 that sprays absolutely fine with a 3:2 paint:thinner ratio (I too use the Tamiya thinner as it contains a drying retarder in it).  This is with the "fine" needel.  However, I just bought a new Bagder (Renegade Velocity) so I could take my airbrushing to a new level, and this airbrush contains an ultra fine needel.  I started with the usual 3:2 ratio, and while it came out it was not ideal.  I had to go to the 50/50 ratio and that worked much better.  I see it mentioned your airbrush is a single action.  This works out for the best because since you have to adjust it to get the spray line you want this gives you an opportunity to fiddle around with ratios on a piece of paper or scrap styrene before moving on to the model.  I would say start with a 3:2 ratio.  If that does not come out the way you like start adding more and more thinner until you get what you like.  Eventually it will become second nature when you go to add thinner to the paint, it is just establishing that baseline to start with that is the biggest hurdel.

I used to clean up with plain old soapy water, but in the end I found windex (I had the kind with vinegar on hand, not ammonia, but I figure the ammonia kind will work just as well if not better than the vinegar kind, just beware that if your airbrush has brass the ammonia can etch it, so don't soak it for more than 1/2 an hour.....but if you clean up right away you should not have to saok anyways) works even better, especially when used out of it's spray bottle.

I remember from your previous post you said you have a collection of Windsor and Newton artist oil paints.  Those mixed with oderless mineral spirits will not harm you base coat at all.  Personally I would use the artist oils 100% of the time over enamels for washes, filters and such, but thats me and I won't contend to have extensive experience.  All I know is that many of the true "artists" of this forum like to use the Windsor and Newtons.  If it is good enough for them then it's plenty fine for me. Big Smile

And also, as has been mentioned, if you are using flat paints (designated XF by Tamiya as opposed to their gloss just designated X ) you will need to put a spot of gloss or Future below the decal or you will get silvering, micro sol/set or not.  Just put a spot on, I don't cover the whole model with it.  Then I would zap entire thing with Satin/semi-gloss which makes a nice base for filters and allows pin washes to flow beautifully.  The W&N oils tone down the satin a bit more and gives me just what I like.

Brian

  • Member since
    April 2008
  • From: Kristiansund, Norway
Posted by Huxy on Friday, January 8, 2010 4:34 AM

When I use my airbrush with Tamiya, I take in a bit of paint, and a dash of water. Hehe!

Well, about one fourth will be water. That's my experience, and that is very limited!

Looking forward for the Cromwell! Happy modelling!

-Lasse Toast

"Every War Starts And Ends With An Invasion".

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 8, 2010 4:50 AM

Ben,

Here and especially  here are two links to show you exactly what pre-shading can look like when done properly. These are two of my Armor tutorial-style builds.The second one is on my one-color Olive Drab Panther M10 (much like you will be doing to that British tank) built here not long ago....my, how quickly I have been forgotten!  Crying lol

Here is a tutorial page showing you how I do my decals with absolutely no gloss or extra coats on the model, using Solvaset decal setting solution.

I would recommend against using enamels for washes. Oil pigments are much more finely ground, and the carrier is much more amenable to washing, in my opinion. I would strongly suggest you get some Windsor and Newton oils, and use just regular mineral spirits for ypour washes.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Friday, January 8, 2010 6:43 AM

Thanks lads,

GREAT advice as usual.

I do have a nice selection of oils BUT they are not W & N, just a cheaper oil paint-will this matter?

When making oil washes do I just put a spot of oil paint into my pallette and apply spirits as required?

Many thanks,

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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  • Member since
    June 2008
  • From: Iowa
Posted by Hans von Hammer on Friday, January 8, 2010 7:29 AM

Personally, I don't pre-shade... I prefer to use pastels to post-shade as I have more control and use a lot less time on the airbrush... Also, I forego using acrylics at all if I have just a single color to paint, like OD, dark yellow, or Panzer grey... No measuring, mixing, or clean-up...  

Do you still use Future when using acrylics or will Decalfix/Micro-Sol suffice?

I use white vinegar for decal setting solution.  Test this on a spare decal from your sheet BEFORE you use it on the model though.  Some decals don't like it, others are not affected in any way by it.. Monogram decals seem to be the least affected when it comes to using vinegar.. It works great on Microscale & Scale Master decals..

I use a rattle-can of Model Master enamel instead, plus, Tamiya's colors are a little off IMNSHO with certain shades, especially Olive Drab (I think it's WAY too dark).. Whether or not I'm using enamels or acrylics, I don't use Future to prep the paint for decals (It's for floors, far as I'm concerned, although it works great for "glass" on headlights and gauges)..  I use Testor's MM Glosscoat over acrylics or Tree House acrylic gloss over enamels. Again, no mixing, measuring, or clean-up.  The only reason to use a gloss coat is to give the decals and washes a smooth surface to adhere to, after all... In fact, it doesn't even have to be glossy; a satin or semi-gloss is enough for decals..

Wash wise, will I be ok to apply an enamel wash made with enamel thinners straight onto the acrylic paint surface?

Sure... Just be sure to move fast so you don't give it any real time to attack the under-lying paint AND make sure you've given the finish enough time to fully cure (24 hours is the usual recomendation, although Tamiya cures a bit faster).  Washes also work best over gloss surfaces.. Flat-finished surfaces make it hard to control the wash and keep it confined to panel lines, corners, outlines, and recesses.   Also, be sure to keep in mind that, after you have applied the decals and washes, you'll be wanting to apply the flat overcoat, since drybrushing and pastel applications work best on flat-finished surfaces... The clear flat-coats will have some "tooth" which'll allow the drybrush and/or pastel to grab onto the paint and hold it. 

When you lads use this through the AB by what ratio do you like to thin it?

I don't have a ratio as such... I mix Tamiya in a separate bottle (always doing enough to paint the moel at least THREE times.  Left-over mixes can be stored in a clean bottle for a couple weeks with no problems (After that, it's a crap-shoot) and then transfer the mix to the paint cup.  The "milk comparison" works pretty good for adjusting the viscosity of the paint, but if you get it a little too thin, don't sweat it... Just apply several light coats (let each one "flash", meaning it's dried to the eye) until the desired level of color opaqueness is reached.  

  • Member since
    August 2005
  • From: Sydney, Australia
Posted by Phil_H on Friday, January 8, 2010 8:47 AM

Hinksy
When making oil washes do I just put a spot of oil paint into my pallette and apply spirits as required?

Hey Ben,

Yep, a dab of oil paint slightly less than a pea and about a tablespoonful of thinner. Mix well and there you go.

Put another spoonfull of thinner in a spare well on your palette and use this to lightly wet down the area you're about to wash. This will help reduce/prevent "tide marks" or demarcation lines on the edge of your washes.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 8, 2010 9:29 AM

Ben, I have not noticed much of a difference between W&N oils and others. The oil paint itself is the key.

Also, if you're using Tamiya acrylics, you don't have to seal your model at all before washing if you use just plain mineral spirits.

  • Member since
    September 2009
  • From: Rugby, England
Posted by Hinksy on Saturday, January 9, 2010 4:25 AM

Thanks lads,

I'll have a WIP posted by this evening.

ATVB

Ben Toast

On the Bench - Dragon Pz. IV Ausf. G (L.A.H.) Yes

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