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How to make simple snow for suspension and armor

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  • Member since
    January 2007
How to make simple snow for suspension and armor
Posted by the doog on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 4:45 PM

Hi guys,

Toot #2 here, on how to make simple snow for your suspension and tracks, etc. This is how I made the snow on my Trmpeter S51 as seen here;

I'll make it quick and easy: here ya go:

The icicles are made from stretched CLEAR sprue, like you would find clear parts attached to. WHen you heat this, heat it SLOWLY over a flame. If you get too close to the flame, it will blacken the plastic and defeat your intention. FIle the ends of the sprue to points to simulate icicles, and attach with superglue. That's all there is to it! Smile

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Wednesday, January 28, 2015 4:53 PM

I usually use the Elmer's and water trick, or acrylic medium, then apply the snow. I never thought of mixing them. I'll give that a try next time

Thanks.

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    October 2014
Posted by Vladimir on Thursday, January 29, 2015 2:07 AM

for snow i use MIG's pigments. also it can be sodium carbonate (but only for 35, 16 scales) . and aslo good way is sugar powder (you can do it bu yourself - just put sugar to coffee grinder)

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Thursday, January 29, 2015 8:38 AM

Vladimir

for snow i use MIG's pigments. also it can be sodium carbonate (but only for 35, 16 scales) . and aslo good way is sugar powder (you can do it bu yourself - just put sugar to coffee grinder)

Vladimir, thanks for your suggestions--MIG Pigments are fine, but I have to almost laugh here, because I klnow that anyone who knows me and who is reading this post will be laughing at me, knowing that I'm going crazy right now because of your suggestions to use sodium bicarbonate--what we refer to as "Baking Soda" here in the USA, and "sugar powder".  RIght now, you can picture me like this:

lol--Honestly, one of the reasons that I made this posting is to PREVENT people from using chemically active ingredients or "foodstuffs" -- kitchen products, food, etc that has similarity to small grains of "snow"--as bad choices for snow products made specifically for modelling applicaions. I will only say this, once more, and with emphasis: DO NOT USE FOOD PRODUCTS OR SODIUM BICARBONATE FOR SNOW!!!! You risk disastrous after-effects and consequences from potential chemical interactions between the products and the solvents an carriers in the paints or clear coats!

I started a separate thread here in the diorama section that you, or anyone else who is thinking of using these cheap substitutes. You ought to read through the various testimonials and experiences so you don't wind up making the huge mistake that can ruin your model collection.Click this link:

Modeling Snow: Do's and Don't's

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk, England
Posted by Bish on Thursday, January 29, 2015 4:02 PM

Karl, a nice toot. I have yet to use my woodland sciences snow, I still need to replace the baking soda on my old Tiger II kit. But I really want to do some snow dio's and am going to have to keep this one on file.

And just one suggestion.

Deep breath and count to 10. Wink

I am a Norfolk man and i glory in being so

 

On the bench: Airfix 1/72nd Harrier GR.3/Fujimi 1/72nd Ju 87D-3

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Friday, January 30, 2015 12:04 AM

I use Baking soda a lot and I've not had any problems. But I've been using it for years and I know how it reacts to what I use.

Like all things it takes experimentation.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    October 2014
Posted by Vladimir on Friday, January 30, 2015 1:26 AM

If you read european scale model magazines you can see that many modellers use food products for diorama. especailly in little cities where people can't buy special pigments.

And about soda - i hadn't any problem with it and there wasn't chemical reaction with plastic. Of course it's difficult to fix soda on armor but it's easy to fix sugar powder. In my opinion there needs to be all types of tips for all people with any money budget.

And the main idea is to do model and diorama by marerials at hand. it'll be true model.

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 30, 2015 6:24 AM

Vladimir

If you read european scale model magazines you can see that many modellers use food products for diorama. especailly in little cities where people can't buy special pigments.

And about soda - i hadn't any problem with it and there wasn't chemical reaction with plastic. Of course it's difficult to fix soda on armor but it's easy to fix sugar powder. In my opinion there needs to be all types of tips for all people with any money budget.

And the main idea is to do model and diorama by marerials at hand. it'll be true model.

Yes, I do read those, and I try to educate any modeler I can find on the heartbreaking experience that I had which ruined about a dozen much-loved models in my collection--and at a time when I was not financially able to replace them. So much for the wisdom of using "cheap" or "budget" products. Crying

All we can do here is share the experiences which make us better modelers, as well as sharing the mistakes that we've made. I can only say to both you and M. Brindos, "Don't say you weren't warned". Whistling

I reiterate my warning for all those who would read this: DO NOT USE CHEMICALLY-ACTIVE HOUSEHOLD PRODUCTS IN YOUR MODELING because you risk DISASTER!!

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Friday, January 30, 2015 12:58 PM

Warning received.  :)

Like all things in modelling, experimentation is always needed.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    April 2006
  • From: ON, Canada
Posted by jgeratic on Friday, January 30, 2015 1:40 PM

Thanks for the tip on how to apply this particular product.  I've only used it once, relying on hairspray to 'tack' it to surface areas.  The method presented here should prove to be much more durable. Yes

regards,

Jack

  • Member since
    October 2014
Posted by Vladimir on Friday, January 30, 2015 4:44 PM

I agree with M.Brindos. experimentation is needed. I guess people is smart and understand what they do.

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Friday, January 30, 2015 4:58 PM

Well I understand how baking soda reacts to super glue, white glue, model cement, enamels, and acrylics. It's all old hat for me.

But if someone were to just slap it on without understanding first how the stuff will react to what they're using it with then I can see why he has such strong opposition to using it.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 30, 2015 6:04 PM

jgeratic

Thanks for the tip on how to apply this particular product.  I've only used it once, relying on hairspray to 'tack' it to surface areas.  The method presented here should prove to be much more durable. Yes

regards,

Jack

Jack, yes, the nice thing is that it looks perfectly "dry" when it dries, and it's as durable as dried white glue. Additionally, I would recommend that it you want to get more of a "powder" look, you could then add a very thin, diluted coat of white glue and THEN sprinkle dry powder on it.  Smile

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Friday, January 30, 2015 6:21 PM

M. Brindos

Well I understand how baking soda reacts to super glue, white glue, model cement, enamels, and acrylics. It's all old hat for me.

But if someone were to just slap it on without understanding first how the stuff will react to what they're using it with then I can see why he has such strong opposition to using it.

Mike,

Listen, I know that this is going to almost sound "snarky" or sarcastic, perhaps, but it's not intended that way. Just want to get that on the record. Propeller

In your profile, you call yourself a "no budget modeler", and go on to say that you try to get by on a limited budget for modeling. There are a LOT of guys in similar position on this site, stated or otherwise. '

You also say "Maybe I can prove myself while I'm here.".

OK, so in all sincerity, since this thread is both a tutorial for making snow, but also a warning against what you are basically claiming that you intimately understand--the interaction and reactions of various household chemicals when employed in modeling situations--then why don't you be gracious enough to share what you know and to elucidate your experiences and knowledge about these reactions? In the spirit of sharing knowledge--my raison d'etre for being here and posting these threads--would you please fill in the gaps and share what you have learned in terms of what these reactions would be? I'm sure that the community would appreciate the clarification and the benefit of your experience. Smile

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Friday, January 30, 2015 8:17 PM

Okay.

First, I promise that I  won't take this challenge as a rude insult, as you do not intend for it to be an insult. I will gladly share what limited knowledge I have on this subject.

I am a "no budget" modeller, and I will explain that briefly; I have no job, no allowance, and no one gives me any money. My Father does sometimes buy me supplies, such as some new acrylic paint I received for Christmas. I saved up some left over change from the bus just to get a small pot of Flat White at Michael's a month ago. So yeah, I'm poor and I have no budget, but I get by with what I can find around the house.

Most of the modelling I've been doing recently has been finding old kits, broken or unfinished in my old boxes, and rebuilding and repainting them for the practice.

So I do know how to use baking soda for texturing: dirt, mud, and rust mostly. I've NEVER used it as an ad-hoc filler because it does have a bad habit of cracking as it hardens over time. This you obviously already know, I believe.

I can tell you how I have used it and how it has worked for my applications.

Using baking soda with;

1. White Glue: (Very pliable, Long drying time, Absorbs paint) I use this for making mud textures. Mixed with dark earth tones of acrylic paints and watered down with the baking soda it makes a paste that dries like real mud. As it dries the tones will lighten. Because the baking soda is an absorbent materiel you can add more "stains" to it after it dries to darken it as you wish. Until it fully dries you can mush it around like clay to shape it if you desire. This technique was used on the bottom of the model in the picture below.

img.photobucket.com/.../PICT0272.jpg

2. Super Glue: (Nearly instant drying time, Hardens quickly, Paint as if plastic) This is best if you need to make small lumps of mud, moss, or raised dirt formations. I wouldn't try building it up past anything more than 1/8 of an inch, only because I have not yet done so and that's where my experience ends. Once you sprinkle the baking soda over a drop of Super Glue it dries within seconds. You can't mush this around like you can with the White Glue.

I used this method on the base of the Space Marine in the picture below to simulate built up moss.

img.photobucket.com/.../IMG_20141001_085833.jpg

3. Liquid Model Cement (Testors): (Mildly pliable, Medium drying time, Paint as if plastic) I've found this makes a good rust texture that is to my liking. With this method you need to apply the cement first and then sprinkle on the baking soda. This method also takes a little longer to dry than if you were simply gluing plastic pieces together. I've never re-applied this mixture over itself so I do not how that will react. In this poor quality picture below you may see some of the rust texture.

img.photobucket.com/.../DSCN0313cropped.jpg

Aside from the White Glue mixture being absorbent after it dries, I paint the other two as if they were molded from plastic. I have had no adverse reactions from painting these mixtures with Acrylic (Artists Advantage and Daler Rowney) or Enamels (Testors and Model Masters) paints. I don't mix these with any significant thickness and only have been using these methods primarily for textures.

I apologize to any of you who thought I would describe some horrific chemical explosions with any of my experimentations regarding Baking Soda. That simply has never happened to me. I can say that there is validity in warning you from using these methods. If you get the white glue mixture too thick it will crack, but that, as mud, can be used to your advantage.

I've never used baking soda as a home-made filler as I have been told of how it will crack between joins and that will ruin a model's finish for sure. These are the only ways I have been reliably using baking soda during my years as a modeller.

If you do choose to use any of these methods you do need to experiment with your materials at hand to know how they will react (not likely to explode so don't get your hopes up) with each other and how you can best use those reactions to your advantage.

Thank you for the opportunity to share what I know on this subject, doog.  :)

You can call me Mike.   lol

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: El Dorado Hills, CA
Posted by IBuild148 on Friday, January 30, 2015 9:52 PM

doog

You are a great instructor. I've learned many things from you,

IBuildOne48

Teach modeling to youth!

Scalefinishes.com

http://i712.photobucket.com/albums/ww122/randysmodels/NMF%20Group%20build%20II/Group%20Badge/NMFIIGBbadgesmall.jpg

 

  • Member since
    August 2007
  • From: back country of SO-CAL, at the birth place of Naval Aviation
Posted by DUSTER on Saturday, January 31, 2015 3:40 AM

A good cautionary tail by two avid modelers.

Thank You Both  ! 

Your ability's to layout your rational for your points of view is both interesting, informative and a pleasure to read .

It leaves with the reader  the decision, as to how best we can use the information given.

Again, many  thanks for the care and gentlemanly discourse ,  sadly all too often absent from  forums in the   interwebery world 

Well Done Both 

Steve

Building the perfect model---just not quite yet  Confused

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 31, 2015 10:09 AM

M. Brindos

Okay.

First, I promise that I  won't take this challenge as a rude insult, as you do not intend for it to be an insult. I will gladly share what limited knowledge I have on this subject.....

..etc....

Thank you for the opportunity to share what I know on this subject, doog.  :)

You can call me Mike.   lol

Mike,

First, I've edited my former post to accurately reflect your name. Embarrassed...Smile Sorry about that!

Secondly, thank you with all sincerity for your willingness to share your experiences and knowledge in this tricky field of interactions and materials. Thanks for the maturity with which you handles this exchange as well. Many times--and I have been guilty of it myself Whistling---these kind of exchanges DO turn into "peeing contests" and ego-fests, and nothing gets learned or taught, which serves no one. I welcome the input and if your post can help some guys out who are in the same boat as you with regard to their modeling budget, that's all the better--nothing could make me happier, as I have learned myself so much from these forums and all the wonderful people here that it's nice to see the arrival of yet another person willing to share and contribute and not "hoard" their knowledge like it's gold....some guys do that too in the modeling world, and that's a shame.

Welcome aboard, and I do look forward to seeing more from you, both in terms of models AND knowledge and tricks and tips! YesBeer

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 31, 2015 10:20 AM

Thanks, Steve. I agree that this thread turned out in thebest way possible--the sharing of information and everyone wins in the end. I can't say that I'll be using baking soda in the future myself, but it's great for the forums to have a balanced counter-opinion presented in a civil and well-detailed manner!

I hope others will feel inclined to contribute as well!

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 31, 2015 10:22 AM

IBuild148

doog

You are a great instructor. I've learned many things from you,

Hey thanks a bunch, Ibuild48! (Forgive me if I ask your proper name again?!! Embarrassed)I'm always happy to share what I"ve learned--however disastrous the results, lol!

That's what I"m here for! Big Smile Sharing and learning! Toast

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 31, 2015 10:36 AM

"DisasterMaster" Steve also posted this mini-tutorial in my other thread, so I've copied it here to add to the wealth of knowledge and techniques presented in this thread. THANKS, STEVE!! Toast

disastermaster

the doog

Steve,

That's a killer presentation! I love how the snow is all chewed up! Very cool model! How did you do the snow?

 Thank you doog.

That was done back in the stone ages before there was a local hobby shop around here or internet connections.

 What I did was find a old 12" x 12" plaque at the salvage store, mask off the area to be covered and did it in the image on the box top,  which was all snow.

http://thumbs3.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mI7EdTGMWHmd-1oxCw50L0g.jpg

 Even when you're standing in real snow (1/1 scale) it's nearly impossible to see any grain or texture in it so I opted to use (old school) wall joint compound. In my opinion there would not be ANY texture in 1/35 scale snow. So I laid down a nice even layer and pressed the tank treads into it repeatedly to get a nice tread trail going.

http://static.fertilityfriends.co.uk/forum/YaBBImages/avatars/Muppets_-_Cookie_Monster.gif   Then,

 I sat the tank aside and built up more layers of the joint compound but left the track impression area untouched as it was imprinted with the tracks. This will give the effect of a deep snow trail.

  http://www.picgifs.com/icon-graphics/sesame-street/cookie-monster/icon-graphics-cookie-monster-942296.gif And Then,

 Take a soft small 3/8 to 1/2 inch wide flat brush and dip it in a container of water and wipe over the snow to contour and smooth it out like fresh fallen snow. You can do this repeatedly until you like how it looks - you can even come back the next day, wet it again and carry on since this stuff can be re-hydrated many times over.

 http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs27/f/2008/100/b/4/cookie_monster_by_dracoluvr.jpg And then, and THEN........

After placing the tank into the track pattern you can add small snow areas onto/into the track in the same manner. The churned up look is from small dried pieces of the compound inside the container. You strategically put the chunks (don't wet the chunks, gee that sounds bad) into position after wiping the wet brush across the snow surface, placing them and letting them dry in place. For all reasonable handling they will stay in place after the wet surface dries. It's been  24 years now and it's still all together but dusty.

 By the way, don't forget to mangle those clumps into the running gear too.

 The only thing I did different with the icicles was to attach them with elmers glue instead of C/A to let gravity hang them properly in relation to the stance of the vehicle as the glue slowly dried; they aren't heavy enough to fall from the glue. You can also gently tease them out with white glue after they have completely dried in place.

 Well Karl, hope this explains it well enough.... if it doesn't, just let me know.

                   http://www.smilys.net/smiley_generator/smilies/smiley_000772523_3.png

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, January 31, 2015 12:46 PM

Thanks doog. :)

It's what I do at Gennesis Models for my guys there. We have an extremely helpful bunch of mates over there and we pride ourselves on our spirit of cooperation. So this is nothing new to me.  :)

I does look I can learn a lot from you however, so I will be paying attention.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Saturday, January 31, 2015 3:45 PM

Thanks too, Mike! I'll have to check your site out when I get a few minutes to spare. I have a lot of tutorials and threads up on this site--I"ve been here since 2007--so feel free to look som of them up in the Search feature and pick through them. :)

You sound like exectly the kind of guy we love to have around here, too! :)

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, January 31, 2015 3:47 PM

I hope so lol. Thanks again doog.  :)

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Saturday, January 31, 2015 6:10 PM

Karl, Mike, DM: Thanks guys!!! I'm hoping to use some of your techniques soon- thanks for the help!

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
  • From: Tumwater, WA.
Posted by M. Brindos on Saturday, January 31, 2015 6:15 PM

If you choose to try the baking soda remember to test it out on scraps first. I have not ever tested any of my solutions with other bands other than the one's I've listed and I do not know how they will react with other brands of paints, glue, or solvents.

Karl has the right of it. You should use non reactive materials if you have the option.

- Mike Brindos "Lost Boy"

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:07 AM

Thanks Mike, I do have a big bottle of the Woodland Scenics stuff so I'm planning on using that but it's nice to have an alternative solution.

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Bucks county, PA
Posted by Bucksco on Tuesday, February 3, 2015 8:30 AM

I used baking soda on a Marder III. It looked great for a year or two and then it turned yellow with age. I never used it again because nothing looks worse than "yellow snow"......

  • Member since
    October 2014
Posted by Vladimir on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 1:20 AM

in this article modeller has used soda and it looks grate and i guess it's not yellow now

  • Member since
    January 2007
Posted by the doog on Wednesday, February 4, 2015 7:11 AM

Bucksco

I used baking soda on a Marder III. It looked great for a year or two and then it turned yellow with age. I never used it again because nothing looks worse than "yellow snow"......

...just wait until it starts to attract bugs....they like to eat it.

Thanks for adding to the discussion, Bucksco! Smile

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