Your Ontos build was outstanding - looking forward to this one! 

Enjoy your builds Sarge, I'll be throwing a like in here and there. 

Oh yeah!

Redleg this is Oscar Papa one fife. Fire mission. Troops and tanks in the open, moving west, Tango Romeo Papa two Alfa, down two hundred, right three hundred, over...

stikpusher

Oh yeah!

 

Redleg this is Oscar Papa one fife. Fire mission. Troops and tanks in the open, moving west, Tango Romeo Papa two Alfa, down two hundred, right three hundred, over...

 

Every job in combat is important, some are more dangerous than others. The life expectancy of a radio operator in the Vietnam War ranged between five to six seconds all the way up to a slightly more optimistic thirty seconds, depending on your source. The enemy knew where the radio operator was if they could see his antenna. They also knew the radio operator was never far from the person in charge.

These should be fun to watch.

stikpusher

Oh yeah!

 

Redleg this is Oscar Papa one fife. Fire mission. Troops and tanks in the open, moving west, Tango Romeo Papa two Alfa, down two hundred, right three hundred, over...

 

It's been awhile since I called in arty on a target. Nice call Stik, but I guess things have changed from my time. In the Corps we NEVER used 'down' unless it was for an elevation correction; and with troops and tanks in the open, I want an Immediate Suppression Fire Mission. MASOC-0861 Nov-76 USAFAS Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. 

Looking forward to these builds Sarge. I remember seeing them rumbling down the roads in Camp Lejeune. They were assigned to the 'Force Troops' at the French Creek Area.

TigerII

Looking forward to these builds Sarge. I remember seeing them rumbling down the roads in Camp Lejeune. They were assigned to the 'Force Troops' at the French Creek Area.

 

The hardest thing to teach a radio operator in war is to stay calm and stay down. It is very easy to get excited or angry when someone is shooting at you and the adrenaline is flowing. To make things worse the NVA would intentionally wound a man on the perimeter knowing Americans would try and rescue him.

A commander will decide what effect fire support must have on a particular target. There are three types of artillery fire: destruction, neutralization, and suppression. Suppression of a target limits the ability of the enemy personnel in the target area to perform their job.

If you are in-charge or on the radio and you make a mistake calling in fire support with the NVA one klick away, you could endanger your entire company with 'friendly-fire'. This I believe is why many Vietnam veterans don't like to talk about the war because it happened a lot.

I believe the U.S. Army and Marine Corps have done an outstanding job training their combat personnel to avoid the mistakes of Vietnam. 

Hello Sarge!

I'll be watching this one - it sure would be good to see you tackle that A-nothing. I suppose it will be a Vietnam track?

Good luck with your builds and have a nice day

Paweł

Pawel

Hello Sarge!

I'll be watching this one - it sure would be good to see you tackle that A-nothing. I suppose it will be a Vietnam track?

Good luck with your builds and have a nice day

Paweł

 

TigerII

 

 

stikpusher

Oh yeah!

 

Redleg this is Oscar Papa one fife. Fire mission. Troops and tanks in the open, moving west, Tango Romeo Papa two Alfa, down two hundred, right three hundred, over...

 

 

 

 

It's been awhile since I called in arty on a target. Nice call Stik, but I guess things have changed from my time. In the Corps we NEVER used 'down' unless it was for an elevation correction; and with troops and tanks in the open, I want an Immediate Suppression Fire Mission. MASOC-0861 Nov-76 USAFAS Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. 

 

Well I’m rusty as hell myself. And calling for fire was one of my far less frequently done commo tasks... so while the basic idea is still in my head, the fine details are not anymore...

Yeah, after as well as the ONTOS turned out, this should be awesome. Looking forward to this!

stikpusher

Well I’m rusty as hell myself. And calling for fire was one of my far less frequently done commo tasks... so while the basic idea is still in my head, the fine details are not anymore...

 

Thank you Gamera, you are a real encouragement and source of information for me.

Harold

I started assembly today by laying out all the parts, inspecting their condition and taking inventory. As you can see in the first photograph there are a lot of parts in my 33" paint booth.

The first fifteen steps out of 31 involve assembly of the lower hull; however, the first 5 steps will be my focus for the next several days. They include the suspension arms, road wheels and drive sprockets. I cannot go too far on the assembly until I receive the Black Dog interior kit because there are parts in that kit that need to be added before the lower hull is completed. PLease see Black Dog photograph below.

TigerII

Nice call Stik, but I guess things have changed from my time. In the Corps we NEVER used 'down' unless it was for an elevation correction... 

A call of "Down two hundred" is still a height of burst/elevation correction.  For distance it is still add or drop.  A direction correction is still right or left.  

 I believe Gino served as company commander on M109A6. 

I was actually a Battery Commander of a Target Acquisition Battery (TAB), Firefinder Radars, in an MLRS Bn during the invasion of Iraq.  I was a Co FSO, Battery XO, and Bn FSO in M109A6 Paladin Bns though.

Well, I try to be moral support but I'm not sure I'm much of a source of accurate information! 

In any case this does look really cool! I've only built a few kits with interiors and that with the one included in the box. I've never added an aftermarket one so I'm really interested on how this goes.  

HeavyArty

 

 

TigerII

Nice call Stik, but I guess things have changed from my time. In the Corps we NEVER used 'down' unless it was for an elevation correction... 

 

 

 

A call of "Down two hundred" is still a height of burst/elevation correction.  For distance it is still add or drop.  A direction correction is still right or left.

Like I said, I’m rusty there. Thanks for the correction. Call for fire was something that we practiced, but only rarely. Good thing it wasn’t for real that I boned up drop vs.down. In commo I spent far more time sending or receiving unit reports on burst devices or doing voice comms  with Aircraft while performing Pathfinder Ops on DZs than any other types of messaging.

[quote user="Sergeant"

[/quote]

Oh that interior looks nice! This is gonna be quite an involved project.

Oh that interior looks nice! This is gonna be quite an involved project.

Gino, it is really great to have an Artillery Officer who knows his AOC in our Forum. You provide knowledge and experience valuable to our interest in this field of military Armor.

Carlos, I received confirmation the Black Dog Kit will arrive May 15th and the M109 L23 Kit was pushed out to July 7th. It's just as well because like you indicated above I will be busy with the M109A2 for quite a while.

Harold

You're correct, but a "down two hundred" would mean you are calling fire on or near a mountain and want that air burst to be a minimum of 20ft above the enemy. For distance its always been "add or drop". Luckily Iraq was mostly flat ground. BTW Gino, very nice resume. Question Gino: Are artillery forward observers still taught how to call in fire WITHOUT using a computer or radar? Enquiring minds want to know.

TigerII

You're correct, but a "down two hundred" would mean you are calling fire on or near a mountain and want that air burst to be a minimum of 20ft above the enemy. For distance its always been "add or drop". Luckily Iraq was mostly flat ground. BTW Gino, very nice resume. Question Gino: Are artillery forward observers still taught how to call in fire WITHOUT using a computer or radar? Enquiring minds want to know.

Yes, "Down 200" would not be a common correction.  As to the resume, that is only about the first 10 years of my carreer.  In 23 1/2 years as an active duty Artillery officer, I had a bunch of jobs.  Most of the second half was spent in MLRS Bns; from an LNO to DIVARTY to Bn XO, some time at Divisions and the Pentagon too.

FOs are still taught voice calls-for-fire.  Digital doesn't always work.  

stikpusher

I’m rusty

And I feel fully oxidized.

This ought to be a good build, though.  109 deserves to be open, unless it's parked in a motorpool or lashed to a railcar.

TigerII

I want an Immediate Suppression Fire Mission. MASOC-0861 Nov-76 USAFAS Ft. Sill, Oklahoma. 

 

Harold

CapnMac82

109 deserves to be open, unless it's parked in a motorpool or lashed to a railcar.

 

In the Army my radio shop was located in the motor pool building and I had coffee with the Master Sergeant every day. He really knew these vehicles well and could answer any question I had about the M109.

Harold

HeavyArty

Most of the second half was spent in MLRS Bns; from an LNO to DIVARTY to Bn XO, some time at Divisions and the Pentagon too.

FOs are still taught voice calls-for-fire.  Digital doesn't always work.

 

Harold

Hey Sergeant, yes I did get my training at Ft. Sill. Then I spent my time in the Corps with 3rd Bn/10th Marines, 3rd Bn/12th Marines, then 2nd Bn/10th Marines. My resume is not as extensive as Gino's but I was a Forward Observer, then went up to NCOIC of BLT-2/8(Rein) FSCC where a Lt. and I coordinated supporting fire for the infantry with 105mm Arty, 81mm & 4.2(106mm) Mortars, Close Air Support (A-4's, F-4's & A-6's) with an ALO and Naval Gunfire(Spruance Class Destroyers & Oliver Hazard Perry Frigates) with an NLO.

TigerII, I just received an email from Captain Seely advising me that he had been in contact with Corporal Bosquet's Gunnery Sergeant. Apparently their was a mistake made on the ONTOS dedication plaque. Corporal Bosquet was in 2nd Platoon, Bravo Company, 3rd Anti Tank Battalion, but attached to BLT 2/4 when he was killed August 18, 1965.

Could you help me get the organization identification correct? Is 2nd Platoon, Bravo Company, 3rd Anti Tank Battalion attached to Battalion Landing Team 2nd Battalion, 4th Marines the correct way to identify his group so non-Marines will understand?

Harold

17–24 August 1965
Operation Starlite was the first offensive military action conducted by the U.S. Marines during the Vietnam War and the first purely American operation. 

Be fun to watch. I think one of the units I was with switched over to that SP some years back.

Here's a radio you might rememeber.

Rest stop by Glenn Hanson, on Flickr

GlennH

Here's a radio you might rememeber.

Rest stop by Glenn Hanson, on Flickr

 

 

 

Soldier using a PRC-77 (top) with the KY-38 "Manpack," part of the NESTOR voice encryption system that was used during the Vietnam War.

Yup, could be a PRC -25 or a PRC-77. The main difference between the two types, IIRC, is that the -77 can be hooked into COMSEC devices, while the -25 could not.

really fun to hump in your ruck along with mission and existance load...

stikpusher

Yup, could be a PRC -25 or a PRC-77. The main difference between the two types, IIRC, is that the -77 can be hooked into COMSEC devices, while the -25 could not.

really fun to hump in your ruck along with mission and existance load...

 

I'm terrible at numbers. I think it was a PRC25. 1969. I was pulled off the gun being the FNG and sent to hump with the FO. The old batteries in the background I had just finished cooking. I have to wonder how small batteries could be now! Those two spares were each about the size and weight of a housebrick! 

The PRC-77 still used the same batteries as the 25. The 77 was just an upgraded 25. We still had some in the Guard when I retired in ‘07. But we also had the replacement PRC-119 radio which used a battery that was approx 1/3 the size of the one used on 25/77. The early model PRC-119 was bigger than the 77. But the last manpack type that I used, the E Model was about 4” x 6” x 15” IIRC. The radio both frequency hops and scrambles transmission in COMSEC mode, and can pre preloaded with multiple channels, able to be switched from the handmic. Its a really good piece of equipment. 

GlennH

 

 

stikpusher

Yup, could be a PRC -25 or a PRC-77. The main difference between the two types, IIRC, is that the -77 can be hooked into COMSEC devices, while the -25 could not.

really fun to hump in your ruck along with mission and existance load...

 

 

 

 

I'm terrible at numbers. I think it was a PRC25. 1969. I was pulled off the gun being the FNG and sent to hump with the FO. The old batteries in the background I had just finished cooking. I have to wonder how small batteries could be now! Those two spares were each about the size and weight of a housebrick! 

 

The new field radio gear used by the U.S. Army and Marine Corps still looks bulky to me, but I've never worked with it so I can only hope it has improved since Vietnam.

SINCGARS (Single Channel Ground and Aairborne Radio System) operated in a HMMWV.

PRC119 Manpack used by Marine officer in training at Quantico, Virgina.

Those images are deceiving Sarge. The vehicle mount has two separate radios installed. The man pack guy has it in his assault pack.

this is what I carried for manpack overseas... 

stikpusher

Those images are deceiving Sarge. The vehicle mount has two separate radios installed. The man pack guy has it in his assault pack.

this is what I carried for manpack overseas... 

 

Hey Harold, that is exactly how its written out in long hand.

TigerII

Hey Harold, that is exactly how its written out in long hand.

 

I regret that having taken hundred of pics with that 35mm I still have that I never took one of my complete ruck with the radio and all the other crap. I've only seen one image that looks very much like I recall. oh well... 

BTW your progress is looking great.

GlennH

I regret that having taken hundred of pics with that 35mm I still have that I never took one of my complete ruck with the radio and all the other crap. I've only seen one image that looks very much like I recall. oh well... 

 

BTW your progress is looking great.

 

The way I learned it, you can tell a 77 from a 25 as the former has more bootprints in/on it by frustrated RTO.

CapnMac82

The way I learned it, you can tell a 77 from a 25 as the former has more bootprints in/on it by frustrated RTO.

 

Harold

The 77 is a very reliable radio. At least in my own experience. Add a long wire antenna instead of those whips, along with site selection,  and you can do some good long distance talking (for FM).

stikpusher

The 77 is a very reliable radio. At least in my own experience. Add a long wire antenna instead of those whips, along with site selection,  and you can do some good long distance talking (for FM).

 

Harold

Hey Stik, your assessment of the AN/PRC-77 is correct regarding reliability and that long antenna gave you excellent transmission & reception but it also made it easier for the enemy to spot that RTO. Also the long antenna would get caught up in low canopy forests. I remember when I had to hump with the grunts, there was the company CO's RTO, that along with the 77 he also humped the encryption radio. He always used the long antenna to make sure he got clear reception. My RTO always used the short 'tape' antenna and as long as I was able to get the battery FDC, I was happy.

I was referring to wire antennas, not the whip antennas that came in the radio accessory bag. Each of our surveillance teams was issued a GRA-50 long wire antenna kit. Those are very effective. Eventually several of the RTOs or Team Leaders would buy spools of speaker wire since it was insulated, to use in field conditions. You can get a LOT more range out of those long wire antennas cut to match the frequency to make a quarter wave antenna. Even using commo wire to create a “jungle 292” improvised antenna gives superior performance to the issued long whip antenna.

And yes, that long whip antenna standing straight up, does draw attention.

I completed assembly of step 1 and part of step 2 to create the lower hull shell. The second half of step 2 is assembly of the suspension system which I will work on tomorrow.

The Black Dog interior detail kit arrived today, and it is amazing. It looks like hundreds of quality resin and photo-etched parts. I was especially impressed with the instructions sheets. This model will definately have all the doors and hatches opened.

Lower hull shell.

Black Dog resin and photo-etched parts.

Black Dog instruction sheets. And by the way I learned to have a large dish towel over my lap to catch all the parts I drop, it saves a lot of time and frustration.

Photo-etched deck plates and other parts.

Below are good quality reference photographs for the AFV Club M109 L23 (short barrel, self-propelled howitzer). I purchase one on eBay and it's in transit from Taiwan. The interior of the M109 L23 is not the same as the M109A2 shown in the previous post. As of right now I don't have any interior reference photographs for the M109A2 other than the Black Dog instructions sheets.

Men in the photographs below do not appear to be American artillery men, but the interior of the M109 looks the same as U.S. Army units from the 1960's. The M109 I served with was introduced in 1963 and still used long after it was upgraded with the M109A1 and M109A2. It was manufacture in the United States by United Defence LP now BAE Systems Land and Armaments. It was sold to dozens of different countries and the lastest version is M109A7 in service 2013 to the present. The M109 in different versions has be used in ten wars around the world over a period of 57 years.

Harold

Those are Israeli soldiers. The IDF first used the M109 in combat in the 1973 October war.

Thank you Carlos, I didn't know what Army the men were with, only that they were not U.S. Army or Marine Corps. I completed steps 2 through 4 which includes the suspension system, drive sprockets and road wheels. Step 5 is the start of upper hull assembly and it will wait until Black Dog interior parts are installed and painted.

I also ordered two sets of FriulModel metal tracks for the M109A2 and M109 L23 which should arrive next week from Portland, Oregon. I was originally planning to use the AFV Club #AF35S23 plastic tracks, but after reading some reviews decided to try the FriulModel tracks instead. I hope they are as good as advertised because they cost twice as much as the plastic tracks.

Harold

Hello Sarge!

You've got a very nice discussion going on in your thread - even if it isn't directly model-related I like it a lot.

Do I understand it right that you want to build two howitzers? Or are you just building the "short one"? I got the black dog interior some time ago and I wonder how would one go about fitting it to the A-nothing variant of the M109.

I'd like to recommend Tamiya white primer in a spray can for your interior white - with some black acrylic wash the interior looks just right IMO. And the white really covers, that's not always the case with other paints.

Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

Pawel

Hello Sarge!

You've got a very nice discussion going on in your thread - even if it isn't directly model-related I like it a lot.

Do I understand it right that you want to build two howitzers? Or are you just building the "short one"? I got the black dog interior some time ago and I wonder how would one go about fitting it to the A-nothing variant of the M109.

I'd like to recommend Tamiya white primer in a spray can for your interior white - with some black acrylic wash the interior looks just right IMO. And the white really covers, that's not always the case with other paints.

Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

 

You do indeed understand correctly I'm building the M109A2 and M109 L23 together or as close together as availability will allow. The Black Dog interior is for the M109A2. I haven't seen the other kit yet, but it's probably not going to have a complete interior.

I served with an M109 L23 Battalion and wanted for a long time to build that model. However, it is my longer term goal to build a series of M109's that cover as many versions as there are models available. I really like AFV Club models, but I don't think they cover more than four out of the eight versions.

The reason I'm doing two this time is our State is still in COVID-19 lockdown. We are not allowed to do much more than get groceries and go to the doctor. No social activity, no dinning out, no haircuts just stay home and stay safe until probably the end of June.

Regarding the M109 interior, do you know for sure the original color is white? I honestly can't remember it's been almost 50 years. Whatever color it is I will need to match with paint I can spray. I have an Iwata miniature spray gun with 1mm adjustable nozzle for large and medium areas and an Iwata airbrush with .35mm nozzle for fine detail. So far these paint tools plus a selection of paint brushes cover every application I have had in modeling. Also I don't use spray paint cans if I can avoid it because I can't control the paint very well.

Harold

Sergeant

Also I don't use spray paint cans if I can avoid it because I can't control the paint very well.

Without wanting to put words in Pawel's mouth--he is superbly capable--I'm guessing he's refering to how the Tamiya white primer is kind of a unique white color which is neither XF-2 nor X-2.

But, that is a guess.

Some modelers will, when a spary can color is the perfect thing, will "decant" the color, by spraying it into a cup to collect the paint, which can then be transfered to an airbrush with whatever thinning or admixtures seem apt.

As to the color, well, I'm a squid, not a red-leg.  Even as a Beachmaster, I was nt near enough to the arty to have a good look inside the SPHs (which were on different ships than I was, too).

CapnMac82

 

 

Sergeant

Also I don't use spray paint cans if I can avoid it because I can't control the paint very well.

 

 

Without wanting to put words in Pawel's mouth--he is superbly capable--I'm guessing he's refering to how the Tamiya white primer is kind of a unique white color which is neither XF-2 nor X-2.

But, that is a guess.

Some modelers will, when a spary can color is the perfect thing, will "decant" the color, by spraying it into a cup to collect the paint, which can then be transfered to an airbrush with whatever thinning or admixtures seem apt.

As to the color, well, I'm a squid, not a red-leg.  Even as a Beachmaster, I was nt near enough to the arty to have a good look inside the SPHs (which were on different ships than I was, too).

 

We were known as Snipe's men:

https://navydads.com/profiles/blogs/why-the-navy-term-used-for-engineers-is-snipes

I think this Tamiya white spray paint or primer is something I will look into. In the past I used Tamiya Gray Fine Surface Primer, In fact I still have two brand new cans in my supplies. But I started using Vallejo paint and primer late last year and found the #71.001 White was more of a satin finish than gloss, perfect for the ONTOS interior. That's why I asked what color the M109 interior should be, because I may have a good match already. However, If I learned anything from this Forum it's that I'm always learning something new and I agree Pawel is an experienced model builder and reliable source of information.

Harold

Yup, the original M109 was semi-gloss white on the interior.  Actually, all M109s have been and are still white on the inside.

Hello Gennulmen!

Thanks a lot for your kind words. When recommending that Tamiya white primer I didn't mean it is any unique shade - it's just white, but one that covers well. That's really handy. Sarge - you don't have to worry about controlling the spray very much here, you're just putting one or two thin coats, and the paint does a really good job on self-levelling. If you want to go really sophisticated, put one coat of Tamiya grey primer and another one of white primer on top of that, and voilla - white interior parts in just two thin coats.

That's the results I got this way (plus some weathering):

Good luck with your build and have a nice day

Paweł

Sorry I did not participate in this thread earlier. As a FDC Chief at the battery and Squadron (Cavalry) levels I was getting a charge out of some of the calls for fire. I too went to Fort Sill for both basic and AIT as a 13E. Though I crewed a M577 Command Post Carrier, I was near the guns to calculate all of the firing data and sent the commands to them. My first assignment was to 1/29th Field Artillery within the 4th Infantry Div. at Fort Carson, CO; it was an M109 unit. My next assignment was in West Germany from 79-83, then assigned to 2/83rd FA (M110A2, 8 inch nuclear capable howitzers). This was during the Cold War. Later after getting another MOS, but being a career soldier, I was reassigned according to the needs of the Army, back to a 13E FDC slot in the 3rd Squadron 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment. Each squadron has its own artillery battery (M109's). With three cavalry squadrons in the 3rd Regiment we effectlvely had a artillery battalion. Here I was the FDC Chief in Charlie Battery, as an E-6 and later transferred to Squadron S-3 (Operations) to double duty as the Squadron Chemical NCO (54E) and Fire Support NCO (13E) both as  E-7. 

Over the years I received calls for fire missions from American Army, Marines, German and Italian Army soldiers. I remember receiving adjust fire missions, supressive fires, DEFCON FPF's, zone and sweep, high angle, illumination, and nuclear missions. When I started in the military there were no computers to calculate the firing data. You had a military map (with terrian elevation), your plotting chart, and Range Deflection Protractor (RDP) Graphic Site Table (GST), Graphic Firing Table (GFT), etc. You received metriological updates for tempreture, air density, wind direction / speed, etc. After calculating the barometric corrections they would be plotted on the GFT (time, elevation and drift). There also were no digital/encrypted communications so each fire mission had to be authenticated through a CEOI. Later FADAC, TI-59, and TACFIRE computers as well as digital and encrypted communications updated the process and basically eliminated the need to authenticate through a CEOI. I really doubt if an FDC specialist even gets trained in the manual/manual method anymore. The data sent to the guns were a deflection (right or left of the battery laid position); quadrant (barrel up or down basically elevation for distance); and Time for a fuze setting (for anything other than HE/PD rounds).

A battery had 6 guns and normally the most proficient gun was set in the three or four position as "base piece". They were the single round adjusting gun on adjust fire missions...to site in or adjust the round to the target. Once the steel was on target the FIST or Foward Observer would call in the "Fire For Effect" command. Based on the target description the FDC would then call for the entire battery to load up. Depending on the mission it could be one command to fire, fire when ready, or fire by command (a single or multiple rounds). 

One of the wildest fire missions to see as an FDO is a "zone and sweep" mission. This is basically quilting a target. Lets say for example,  the size of a grid square (1K), where a round falls at a designated spread, normally every 50 or 100 meters. A mission of this size was not done with one battery but with a batallion or brigade level mission. 

One of the craziest missions to watch from the battery position is a final protective fire FPF while using a "bee hive" round. Talk to anyone who has seen it, they will tell you. It is great for clearing a tree line too. Strange sound going down range, but devestating. I could talk all day about this.....

But I cannot wait to see this build progress. Are you going to also build the FDC M577 or the ammo carrier (M548, Gore, or?)???

Keep up the great work!

Ben

Cool history, my self i was an FDO in 6/29 in Germany.

Wow SFC Aberegg, you have been hiding in plain site. Thank you for your contribution to this project. Yes I purchased an AFV Club M54A2 6x6 to carry ammo for the Vietnam era M109, that was Gino's suggestion. It's still in the box waiting it's turn at the bench. An M548A2 would cover a period from the 1960's all the way through the Gulf War. GlennH has some great pictures of trucks carrying ammo to fire bases during Vietnam and AFV Club has some interesting 155mm ammo kits that look just like Glenn's photographs.

DRUMS01

You received metriological updates for tempreture, air density, wind direction / speed, etc. After calculating the barometric corrections they would be plotted on the GFT (time, elevation and drift).

But I cannot wait to see this build progress. Are you going to also build the FDC M577 or the ammo carrier (M548, Gore, or?)???

Keep up the great work!

Ben

Harold

sprueman: So you obviously knew Graf.? Where was the 6/29th stationed during your time in Germany? When were you there? As an FDO you most likely also remember working up a Safety "T" for the safe firing zone while at Graf., am I correct? Did you ever lay a battery into a firing position? 

Sergeant: I am no expert on the M109 itself. I was around them all day, and had friends who commanded them. Sometimes we helped each other when possible so I know a little. I did get to fire an M110 a couple times (pulling the lanyard). My real time was in the FDC (M577), or BOC (5ton cmd. box). Recieving the call and training my men to proficiently and accurately calculate the firing data to put steel on target, that was my mission.

Stik is a good guy, retired from the military, recently retired from the police department, and full of great military knowledge. From my time in this forum, he is one you can really rely on regarding information and authenticity.

As for modeling, I currently have two M109's, an M110, a M548, and a M577 in scale. Some day I want to build a hip-shoot diorama with a single gun. Back in the day that is how they trained to shoot tactical nukes as they leave a telling firing signature for counter battery fire.

Delta 35 this is Romeo 60, End of Mission. Three Tango 62 and 4 Bravo Mike Papa's burning, out. 

OK, I'm quiet now and my apologies for my rabbit trail on this wonderful build thread. From what I remember historically, this is looking to be an epic build of a M109. I am sitting back and watching this one develop.

v/r,

Ben

DRUMS01

sprueman: So you obviously knew Graf.? Where was the 6/29th stationed during your time in Germany? When were you there? As an FDO you most likely also remember working up a Safety "T" for the safe firing zone while at Graf., am I correct? Did you ever lay a battery into a firing position? 

Sergeant: I am no expert on the M109 itself. I was around them all day, and had friends who commanded them. Sometimes we helped each other when possible so I know a little. I did get to fire an M110 a couple times (pulling the lanyard). My real time was in the FDC (M577), or BOC (5ton cmd. box). Recieving the call and training my men to proficiently and accurately calculate the firing data to put steel on target, that was my mission.

Stik is a good guy, recently retired and full of great military knowledge. From my time in this forum, he is one you can really rely on regarding information and authenticity.

As for modeling, I currently have two M109's, an M110, a M548, and a M577 in scale. Some day I want to build a hip-shoot diorama with a single gun. Back in the day that is how they trained to shoot tactical nukes as they leave a telling firing signature for counter battery fire.

Delta 35 this is Romeo 60, End of Mission. Three Tango 62 and 4 Bravo Mike Papa's burning, out. 

OK, I'm quiet now and my apologies for my rabbit trail on this wonderful build thread. From what I remember historically, this is looking to be an epic build of a M109. I am sitting back and watching this one develop.

v/r,

Ben

 

Thank you Sprueman.

Harold: Good to see all the running gear assembled and ready to go! 

HeavyArty

Yup, the original M109 was semi-gloss white on the interior.  Actually, all M109s have been and are still white on the inside.

 

Thank you Gamera, I plan to post some more progress pictures soon.

Harold

I started assembly of the Black Dog interior accessories set #T35101 by installing the PE deck plates and the ammo racks at the rear wheel wells. At the same, time I began assembly of the Friulmodel T-136 metal tracks #ATL-139.

The track assembly is aided by using my PE folding tool in a vice. I bore out the holes with a .5mm bit in a pin vice which is extremely easy to do. Then load the folding tool with 20 track links, insert the precut brass wire pins, add a bit of CA glue and trim the pins flush. Easy assembly procedure. It takes about a minute for the CA glue to get hard before I trim the pins flush. In the meantime I continue assembly of interior Black Dog resin parts.

Looks like you found a nice rhythm for the tracks, that's what it takes! 

Really interested in how the interior parts are going to go. 

Great tip for the track assembly - thanks! 

Thank you Gamera and Mike. I completed the Friulmodel T-136 track assembly and they fit the AFV Club M109A2 perfectly. I like the way they sag on the top from the weight of the tracks, it looks very realistic to me. I would highly recommend this product for appearance and ease of assembly.

The Black Dog kit is another matter. Let me say up front I have a 'love-hate' relationship with resin kits. I have used Black Dog, Verlinden, Legend, Hobby Fan and Tank Workshop. They are all fiddly and time consuming, but look great when painted.

The next step is to continue assembly of the interior, then primer and paint the interior base coat white and a black primer exterior for the tracks and lower hull shadow coat.

Harold

Those tracks look great! I too love that sag, looks perfect from here. 

Gamera

Those tracks look great! I too love that sag, looks perfect from here. 

 

I'm still working on the Black Dog interior kit for the M109A2. It is a lot more time consuming than I thought it would be at the start of this project. Every piece has its place, but many parts need to be trimmed and filed to make them look plumb and straight because the floor is not supported very well. If I do this again, I will create a subfloor to support the photo-etched deck plate.

I also received the new AFV Club M109 L23 kit, but it will need to wait until I finish the interior of the M109A2.

The interior is looking great.  Keep at it.

That interior is going to look good. 

Yeah, the interior is superb! 

I've done a few open-top AFVs like the M10 but nothing so elaborate- love how this is going just like your ONTOS. 

HeavyArty

The interior is looking great.  Keep at it.

 

The height of the steering wheel and column is determined by part #1 in the M109A2 kit which is all one large resin piece as shown in photograph #2 and #3. It looked strange to me while I was working on assembly, but I did not have reference material until yesterday. Which is my fault, because I know better than to start an interior assembly without supporting documentation.

The Black Dog instructions and photograph of the assembly did not say, or show anything about this issue and it only has one illistration of where to place the driver's periscopes. Please see photograph #5 and #6.

Yesterday I received the New Vanguard book by Steven J. Zaloga titled M109 155mm Self-Propelled Howitzer 1960-2005. On page 16 it shows a picture of the driver's controls. Please see photograph #7. So today I downloaded the TM 9-2350-311-10 Operator's Manual for Howitzers, Medium, Self-Propelled, 155mm M109A2, M109A3, M109A4, M109A5. Please see photograph #8.

At this point I think there are only three options: 1. Leave the driver's periscopes out of the build. 2. Remove the steering wheel and column, so there is space for the periscopes. 3 tear out the entire resin part #1 and remove the excess material to lower the steering wheel to about half the height it is now.

What do you think I should do?

Harold 

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

I haven't built it yet, but I would try removing the wedge-shaped piece under the steering shaft to try and lower it by making it more horizontal.  That may give you enough room for the other parts.

HeavyArty

I haven't built it yet, but I would try removing the wedge-shaped piece under the steering shaft to try and lower it by making it more horizontal.  That may give you enough room for the other parts.

 

Thank you Gino.

Looks good to me Harold, glad to see people here who are able to help out!

Gamera

Looks good to me Harold, glad to see people here who are able to help out!

 

Thank you Gino, your suggestion saved me from trying to remove part #1 which would have been a mess because it was really glued in good.

Harold

Hey Sergeant, good job on that steering column.

Looks good.  Good save.  I think that wedge part may have actually been part of the pour tab for the shaft and should not have been there at all.  If you look at the Black Dog pic you posted (below) it doesn't look like there is anything (no wedge) between the shaft and the base it sits on.

HeavyArty

Looks good.  Good save.  I think that wedge part may have actually been part of the pour tab for the shaft and should not have been there at all.  If you look at the Black Dog pic you posted (below) it doesn't look like there is anything (no wedge) between the shaft and the base it sits on.

 

Pictures of the actual controls; however, indicate some space between the periscopes and steering column, so I removed approximately 1/8" of material from under the wedge-shaped piece to allow a slight angle of the new brass steering column without touching the periscopes. The steering wheel has a shape that seems to require the steering column to have a slight downward angle. Please see finsihed steering column below.

Another benefit to modifying Part #1 in place is most of the changes will never be seen when the model is finished. Only the periscopes and steering wheel can be seen through an opened hatch. The steering column is hidden from view.

Thank you again, I appreciate your help.

Harold

Yes, the rotating band engages the lands and grooves when the round is seated in the breech and imparts spin like a rifle bullet to stabilize it.  The gromet protects the rotating band, since the band is soft metal (copper, I think).  It is removed as the round is being prepared to fire by the ammo crew.  The gromet must be off, or the round will not fit into the breech.  Also, the lifting plug is removed by the ammo crew and a fuze screwed into its place.  Without the fuze, the round will not function and will just burrow into the ground.

HeavyArty

Yes, the rotating band engages the lands and grooves when the round is seated in the breech and imparts spin like a rifle bullet to stabilize it.  The gromet protects the rotating band, since the band is soft metal (copper, I think).  It is removed as the round is being prepared to fire by the ammo crew.  The gromet must be off, or the round will not fit into the breech.  Also, the lifting plug is removed by the ammo crew and a fuze screwed into its place.  Without the fuze, the round will not function and will just burrow into the ground.

 

Harold

That shell is made of hardened steel, which is wanted to support the projectile when fired.  Which is not going to deform to fit the grooves and lands i nthe barrel liner.

The soultion is to pre-engrave a driving band and set it in a groove around the projectile.  The driving band can be of a softer material--various gilding metals like copper, cupronickle, and the like.

The driving band sometimes will have a limited-slip fit, so that it will engage the rifling, which then crushes the band into full contact with the shell.

But, that softness is also a weakness, so a protective band is supplied to allow for rougher handling as the rounds go from truck to tube.

Ships have a similar issue with separate-loading rifle ammunition, but the hoists and shell ways and ammunition-specific racks eliminate some of the protective gear.  (There was some competing theory on base up versus base down stowage, but that's not germane here.)

Thank you CapnMac82 for the information. I can see the need to protect the driving bands (rotating bands) on 155mm projectiles that weigh nearly 100 pounds.

Harold

CapnMac82

 

 

stikpusher

I’m rusty

 

 

And I feel fully oxidized.

This ought to be a good build, though.  109 deserves to be open, unless it's parked in a motorpool or lashed to a railcar.

 

Thank you, Bill. I completed assembly of the cab ammunition rack fully loaded with 155mm projectiles and the traversing mechanism. The traversing mechanism has a hand wheel for manual operation. These two pieces took a great deal of time to repair and clean because the parts were not molded very well.

The next step is the stowage rack for M3 propelling charges. There is a total of 32 rounds of ammunition stowed in a fully loaded M109A2.

Oh wow, great work there on the rack and the interior. The work cleaning it up was worth it- really nice detail there.

Gamera

Oh wow, great work there on the rack and the interior. The work cleaning it up was worth it- really nice detail there.

 

Gino, I have another technical question. I am working on the interior deck of the turret where the hydraulic power pack reservoir and filter assembly is located, please see photograph #1. The Black Dog instructions do not show the relationship of the hydraulic components to the shape of the turret, so with limited overhead space I'm wondering if the cover plate marked with a red arrow in photograph #2 is where the hydraulic power pack reservoir should be located? The cover plate is recessed as indicated with a red arrow in photograph #3 that would allow just enough head room for the hydraulic components.

Gamera, as an example of molding problems I had to rebuild the commanders seat shown in photograph #7 because the backrest was so thin you could see through the plastic and it just fell apart. In operation the backrest is folded down as shown in #6 to use as a platform when firing the machine gun. The backrest is mounted on a heavy metal plate that has a rim around the edge presumably to catch rainwater that drips in through an open commander's hatch. So, I salvaged what I could of the resin parts and made a new backrest out of styrene parts.

Harold

#1 

#2

#3

#4 Hydraulic components are not glued down yet.

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

Looking good.  Yes, the plate on turret roof is an access cover for the hydralics.  That is where they go.

HeavyArty

Looking good.  Yes, the plate on turret roof is an access cover for the hydralics.  That is where they go.

 

Harold

I completed assembly of interior components on the deck of the turret. The next step is assembly of the fire control, breech mechanism and overhead turret components. Once interior assembly is completed it will be ready for a coat of Vallejo Surface Grey primer #74.601 and a base coat of Vallejo White 71.001 which has a satin, or semi-gloss appearance. All this work must be done before hand-painting interior items and continuing assembly of the exterior.

At the point I start painting the interior of M109A2 while the paint is drying, I will start assembly of the M109 L23 model. Since it will not have an interior kit both M109's should be ready for exterior paint about the same time. Both models will also have the same Friulmodel T-136 early style metal tracks.

Harold

Harold: Great job there on the interior. I too have a love/hate relationship with resin. It looks so good when well done but some I've bought left something to be desired... 

Gamera

Harold: Great job there on the interior. I too have a love/hate relationship with resin. It looks so good when well done but some I've bought left something to be desired... 

 

One thing I started doing with this part of the interior is supporting certain items with a wire pin that are mechanically disadvantaged. For example, the hydraulic power pack behind the commander's seat, and the elevator for the commander's seat are pinned and glued to the turret deck. Also, the rammer assembly is pinned and glued to the breech frame rather than depending on just a glue joint between resin and styrene parts.

I am using wire pins for certain parts mainly because I have a lot of interior hand painting left to do and it's easy to knock something loose, or break it off while painting. If I only had airbrush painting to do I would not bother with the wire pins.

Harold

Funny how i just spotted this thread, i have just been looking into getting an M109 and was about to post a question on it.

Some cracking work there harold, going to be following this build.

That looks really good! 

And the pins are a good idea. I pin a lot of pewter figures aka drill a hole in the arm and then another in the body and stick a bit of paper clip wire in there just to give a little extra strength to the joint. 

Thank you Bish and Gamera. I have completed the Black Dog interior assembly work and ready to start painting. The first step will be to mask off openings and glue surfaces to prevent paint and overspray getting where is does not belong.

Then I will give the interior two coats of Vallejo Grey Surface primer #74.601 and two coats of Vallejo #71.001 White. With all the interior detail I need to use a two-step painting method to avoid paint build-up. First a light coat in all the tight corners and when the paint is dry a second general coat to cover the rest of the interior surface. The base coat of satin white will be the finish coat for most of the interior. The interior detail will require hand panting.

Geez, you must take nutrition through an IV.

You are a very impressive modeler, from someone who is not.

I love following the Sarge builds.

Bill

Thats some lovely work there harold. What do you think of the Balck Dog set. I have not used any of their stuff before and that set does look tempting.

You're doing a great job there Sarge! 

Bish

Thats some lovely work there harold. What do you think of the Balck Dog set. I have not used any of their stuff before and that set does look tempting.

 

Bill, I am not an experienced model builder like Bish and others in our Forum. But I learned in the Navy that I could read a technical manual and without instruction repair almost any piece of equipment in my engineering space. I think that same skill helps in model building, because modeling, the kind we do requires both technical skill and artistic ability.

Bish, I wish I could recommend this Black Dog Kit, but it has some problems and if I did recommend it, it would be with a caution. There are specific issues that I can point out, but first I think it's important to decide how much repair and clean up you are willing to tolerate? I have spent one to two hours almost every day since I started, which is about 50 to 70 hours on the interior.

I have built five different resin kits in the past three years from five different manufactures and while Black Dog's workmanship is not the worst, it is also not the best. This kit sells for $55.00 to $75.00 USD and has over a hundred pieces. I started this kit on May 15th and its now July 8th, so it's taken me nearly two months (7-weeks) to get to the place where I'm ready to paint the interior.

Harold

Thanks Harold, that does sound like a lot of work. But the result does seem to be paying off. Would be nice to have this opened up, i had to close my AS90 as there was nothing inside and no AM for it.

I'll decide when i come to getting the kit.

Bish, if you decide to go ahead with the Black Dog interior kit, please let me give you a list of issues I encountered, so you don't make the mistakes I made.

Harold

It is July 18th and my last progress report was July 7th, so I think it is time for an update. I have completed applying Vallejo Surface Primer to the interior and the exterior of the barrel assembly. The next step will be Vallejo White as a base coat for the interior. The part of the barrel assembly that will not be seen on the exterior will be white the rest will remain in primer until I am ready for exterior paint.

When the interior white base coat is dry it will be ready for hand painting details like the seats, gages, levers, and such which takes me some time because I am not very experienced with a paint brush. After the interior detail is completed the exterior assembly can begin again.

Harold

I completed the interior base coat of Vallejo 71.001 White and ready to start hand panting the interior details. However, I run into a problem deciding what color certain items should be painted. In photograph #1, #2 and #3 it is difficult to tell which parts are White and which are grey primer, but everything inside the turret in photograph #1 is white, only the barrel assembly and ammunition storage is grey primer.

The only reference pictures I have for interior color are photograph #6 and #7 below and unfortunately, they are black and white. I have looked at several interior videos of M109A6 Paladin on YouTube, but it's hard to determine what might have changed in 20-years since M109A2. I ordered Royal Model Anti-Skid Tread Plate made of photo-etched brass to put on the floor, see #9 below. I will make a paper template to fit the existing floor layout, paint the material and glue it in place.  It will be painted with Vallejo 71.315 Tyre Black.

I believe the interior color pallete is mainly white, black, red, and olive drab with possibly a few yellow items. If anyone has colored pictures of an M109A2 I would greatly appeciate your help. Thank you.

Harold

#1

#2

#3

#4

#5

#6

#7

#8

#9

Some nice work there Harold, that interiour is coming along very well. And nice ref pics.

And yes, that would be much appreciated as i would deffinetly consider the Blackdog set.

Sergeant

 

I believe the interior color pallete is mainly white, black, and red with possibly a few yellow items. If anyone has colored pictures of an M109A2 I would greatly appeciate your help. Thank you.

Harold

 

I do not remember anything in the Army having yellow factory based paint aside from yellow striping and stenciling on various ordnance- ammo cans, grenades, missiles, etc. Data placards were usually black with the bare metal or white as the wording/lettering. Except for some sort of warning which was usually in red, such as the placard for the voltage cable on the active IR drivers periscope. The only other yellow paint that I recall being used was on Jerry cans used for diesel fuel.

Thank you Bish and Carlos.

Bish

Some nice work there Harold, that interiour is coming along very well. And nice ref pics.

And yes, that would be much appreciated as i would deffinetly consider the Blackdog set.

 

If I built this interior again, I would use the photo-etched brass floor as a template and create a subfloor with sheet styrene or even a thin (.85mm) piece of bass wood you can buy for model aircraft. Glue the subfloor to the interior suspension components and then glue the photo-etched brass floor to the subfloor material. Do not use those gray resin pieces that are provided in the Black Dog kit. They will cause you trouble working around them and they do not exist in the actual M109A2 floor plan.

Note of caution: You must bend the photo-etched brass floor very slightly to get it in place and sit flat because it is a tight fit. That's why I recommend gluing the subfloor down first and then gluing the photo-etched floor to the subfloor. This modification will give you a stable foundation to build on and eliminate the grey resin pieces; however, with added floor thickeness you may need to file down some taller component, but it will not require much, maybe .50mm at the most.

Harold

Thanks Harold, thats a great heads up. I'll be sure to save the page so i can refer back to it.

Looking good.  As to color, about 90% is white and no primer gray inside.  The rest is a gunmetal breech, red halon extingisher bottles, black on rubber coated items, and black/white stenciling. Some pics.

The green cylinder in the middle of the front wall is a personnel heater.

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

Grey - Chemical (No longer used)

...eliminate the grey resin pieces...

If you mean the six pieces in the crew area and two more in the driver's area coming off the sides of the hull and attaching to the floor, they are required as they are part of the torsion bars and present on all M109s.

Hope that helps.

HeavyArty

Looking good.  As to color, about 90% is white and no primer gray inside.  The rest is a gunmetal breech, red halon extingisher bottles, black on rubber coated items, and black/white stenciling. Some pics.

The green cylinder in the middle of the front wall is a personnel heater.

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

Grey - Chemical (No longer used)

 

 

...eliminate the grey resin pieces...

 

 

If you mean the six pieces in the crew area and two more in the driver's area coming off the sides of the hull and attaching to the floor, they are required as they are part of the torsion bars and present on all M109s.

Hope that helps.

 

Here is the reference I used for that conclusion, you will notice there is a small elbow like feature that appears to be welded to the side of the hull and the floor. It does not compare in size or shape to the resin pieces in the kit. But if they are part of the floor plan then they should be used.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50066878757_0417cebeca_b.jpg

Harold

You can see the torsion bar blocks/ends in the below pic of a Dutch M109A2, which has a different powder storage sytem down the sides of the hull.

HeavyArty

You can see the torsion bar blocks/ends in the below pic of a Dutch M109A2, which has a different powder storage sytem down the sides of the hull.

 

The two large air cleaner cabinets cannot sit flat on the floor because there is a torsion bar block right underneath them. I moved the bulkhead behind the cabinets out to the very edge of the photo-etched floor and there was just no way to get by them, so I notched the bottom of the cabinets to get them to sit straight.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50170773431_64a9a3e292_b.jpg

I’d love to have a few of these for my yard... 

I know nothing about this but it looks good Harold! I may be ignorant but I can still supply moral support!!! 

HeavyArty

Powder cans are dark green; rounds various colors depending on type (see below).

Dark Green - HE

Light Green - Smoke

Blue - Inert practice 

White - Illum

 

 

 

 

Gino: I have capacity for 34 projectiles, 22 in the rear ammunition storage box, 5 on each side of the deck near the rear door and 2 in front of the air cleaners on the right front side of the crew compartment.

I am guessing, but it seems reasonable to assume there would be some quantity of HE, smoke, inert and illumination ammunition on board and addition ammunition would be supplied by truck or FAASV. Is there a standard practice for storing ammunition, in other words so many of one type in the rear storage box?

Harold

There is no "standard" ammo load per say.  It is really based on what you expect to fire for upcoming missions.  Illum and smoke are usually stored upright since they have semi-solid substances inside and you don't want it settling to one side or the other.  This would make the round unstable in flight.  Also, the inert rounds are not usually carried except at a practice range that doesn't allow live rounds.  They are not "war shots" and not carried in combat.  Usually, you carry a heavier mix of HE over the others.  So you can mix them however you want.

Ok, I’m going off foggy memories now, but DPCAM and FASCAM rounds, do they look the same as HE rounds? 

stikpusher

Ok, I’m going off foggy memories now, but DPCAM and FASCAM rounds, do they look the same as HE rounds? 

Yup, good memory.  They too are green w/just different markings to denote them.  All HE-type blasting rounds are green.

Still here and watching this build with great interest. Between the knowledge and surperb build quality, this will be the go to reference thread for some time.

I commend all of you and it is not even finished yet. This is a wonderful example of how a FSM build thread should work. 

Ben

stikpusher

I’d love to have a few of these for my yard... 

 

Only $418 + s/h (looks like ±$30 tax and ±$30 shipping; did not look to see if you need letterhead)

Dummy fuzes are only a hundred.

https://inertproducts.com/product-category/replica-ordnance/artillery-replica-ordnance/artillery-fuzes/

1:1 modeling is pretty spendy

DRUMS01

Still here and watching this build with great interest. Between the knowledge and surperb build quality, this will be the go to reference thread for some time.

I commend all of you and it is not even finished yet. This is a wonderful example of how a FSM build thread should work. 

Ben

 

I am pleased with the Royal Model photo-etched tread plate. The quality is excellent, and the 1/35 scale looks perfect. I created a paper template and transferred the layout on to the brass material. It was easy to cut with heavy shears and did not require any deburring. The tread plate is painted with Vallejo Surface Primer and 71.315 Tire Black to get a realistic rubber matt finish.

I painted the HE projectiles with Vallejo 71.289 US Dark Green as indicated by the information Gino provided and ordered Vallejo 71.009 Duck Egg Green for the Smoke projectiles and 71.279 Insignia White for the Illumination projectiles. The HE projectiles are loaded in the ammunition storage box and the Smoke and Illumination projectiles will be standing upright in the deck storage.

The dark green projectiles look a little too green in this photograph, but that is my camera. They actually look like the Vallejo color chip below.

Question: Is the eyebolt lifting plug a different color than the projectile?

Question: If I were to add an LED light to the interior for daylight viewing, what color should it be: green, white, orange, red or blue? I have never used LED lights before in armor modeling, but with a full interior it might help to see inside.

The battery and switch can easily be hidden in the engine compartment.

The shipping plug/lifting ring is unpainted galvanized steel.

The interior light is provided by M35A2 Dome Lights.  They have two lights on them to select between; one clear; one blue or red.  Most modern ones are clear/blue.

If none are provided in the interior set, you can get them at shapways:  https://www.shapeways.com/product/4N2MYKDE9/1-35-m35a2-dome-light-msp35-011?optionId=60183354&li=shops

GreySnake

You are doing some great work in the interior Sarge. Can’t wait to see the next update.

 

In the meantime, I have been working on the interior hand painting which is very time consuming. I finished the HE (high explosive) projectiles with a galvanized steel lifting ring and some of the black details. Then as I started making progress, I broke the cammander's seat and had to build a new one from scratch. I like the new one better anyway, so it was no great loss. But I decided this is a good place to stop and post an update before I break something else.

I decided to try Vallejo Metal Color #77.720 Gunmetal Grey and #77.712 Steel on the breech assembly. So, I ordered both colors to compare with Vallejo Air #71.072 Gunmetal and Vallejo Model Color #70.863 before using them on the model. See sample spoons below. The AFV Club instructions indicate this assembly should be steel, but clearly, it is blued steel, or very dark oiled steel with a little shine. See photographs of the breech assembly below.

I am still hand painting the interior; however, I wanted to stop and tell you how pleased I am with Vallejo Metal Color, Gunmetal Grey #77.720 that I used on the breechblock assembly. It has that black-grey metallic shin I was hoping it would have and the paint flowed like nothing I ever used before with a brush. I highly recommend this Vallejo product for hand painting even though it was designed for airbrushing.

Harold

Looking great.  The breech looks spot on.  Another tip, the powder cannisters in the rack at the bottom right of the below photo should be dark green with white lettering on them.

Powder cannisters (w/round and powder bags).

Thank you Gino and G.S. I admit at times I feel out of my depth on this interior. I am truly thankful we have experienced artillery veterans in this forum.

Harold

Oh wow, that does look good. Great show!!! 

And thanks, I really enjoy following along with you. 

Gamera

Oh wow, that does look good. Great show!!! 

And thanks, I really enjoy following along with you. 

 

Gino gave me a nice set of decals for the projectiles and powder canisters and I want the ammunition they are on to look good too. I have gone as far as I can go with interior painting until I receive the AFV Club ammunition, so it's time to park this model and get started on the M109 L23 I have waiting under my bench.

Harold

Cool, I hope the shells won't block you from seeing all the detail you added though. 

Very nice.  The interior looks great.  You will like the rounds.  They come out really nicely.  Another painting tip.  The two boxes next to the TCs chair are standard .50 cal ammo cans and should be dark green.  They are above the seat in the below pic.

"Ammo can green" is one of those colors that's easy to spot, and hard to pluck out of a model paint rack.

Medium Green plus Black-green has been my starting place; but it never seems to be the same mix twice.

Thank you Gramera, Gino and CapnMac82. Gamera, no problem with ammunition blocking the view of interior details. Gino, limo-charlie on the .50 caliber green ammo boxes. CapnMac82, I found Vallejo #71.289 US Dark Green over Vallejo Grey Surface Primer gives me a good Vietnam era Army Green. It is too dark for uniforms, but good for ammo boxes and gas cans.

I have started assembly on the AFV Club M109 L23. It is basically the same as the M109A2 assembly in steps 1 through 5. This is the version I worked with during the Vietnam War.

Bish, if you are following this thread, I found a cool item to consider for your AS90 build. It is actually a review that Gino did in November 2013 on an Real Model resin M109A2/A6 engine kit. Please check with Gino, but I believe the engine in an AS90 is similar if not the same as the M109A2/A6. A 660hp V8 diesel engine from Cummins, coupled to a ZF Gear Ltd. automatic transmission.

http://armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=9622

Sergeant

Bish, if you are following this thread, I found a cool item to consider for your AS90 build. It is actually a review that Gino did in November 2013 on an Real Model resin M109A2/A6 engine kit. Please check with Gino, but I believe the engine in an AS90 is similar if not the same as the M109A2/A6. A 660hp V8 diesel engine from Cummins, coupled to a ZF Gear Ltd. automatic transmission.

Unfortunately, it is not the same engine.  The AS-90 uses a Cummins VTA903T V8 making 660 Hp, while the M109 engine is a Detroit Diesel 8V71T V8 engine making 450 Hp.   As both are V8 diesels, they may look similar enough to put in the AS-90 though.

Some stunning progress there Harold. Thank for the link on the engine, as i mentioned in my PM, i have already built the AS90 at the tail end of 2017, but i would deffinetly consider this for the m109.

Nice review Gino, thank you.

This whole thing has been quite amazing to watch. I love this kind of work, I just don't usually have the patience for it. Well done.

BK

That is some dang fine work! 

She's coming along great!!! 

And good thing you have Gino, it's an engine- they pretty much look the same to me! 

HeavyArty

Sergeant

Bish, if you are following this thread, I found a cool item to consider for your AS90 build. It is actually a review that Gino did in November 2013 on an Real Model resin M109A2/A6 engine kit. Please check with Gino, but I believe the engine in an AS90 is similar if not the same as the M109A2/A6. A 660hp V8 diesel engine from Cummins, coupled to a ZF Gear Ltd. automatic transmission.

Unfortunately, it is not the same engine.  The AS-90 uses a Cummins VTA903T V8 making 660 Hp, while the M109 engine is a Detroit Diesel 8V71T V8 engine making 450 Hp.   As both are V8 diesels, they may look similar enough to put in the AS-90 though.

 

Bish, BK, Ogrejohn and Gamera I really appreciated your comments and input. I completed steps 1 through 11 and I am working on 12 through 17 to complete the hull. I already have the Friulmodel tracks assembled, so I should be able to start on the turret by Friday.

Harold

Sergeant

Thank you Gino for clarifying the difference between the AS-90 and M109A2 engine. 210 hp is a big difference, about 30% more power. I am surprised the US Army did not use a larger engine too.

You have to remember when the vehicles were designed/made originally.  The M109 dates back to the late 1950s.  The engine has been upgraded over the years, but you are limited to engine size based on hull size.  On the other hand, the AS-90 was designed in the late 1980s.  It was designed with a larger engine in mind.  The hull/engine size of the M109 and its inability to keep up with Abrams and Bradleys on the battlefield is the reason for the new M109A7 Paladin.  The A7 has an all-new, wider  hull using the Bradley engine, transmission, running gear, and tracks.  The turret is an improved A6 turret.  The Bradley/M109A7 engine is the same Cummins VTA-903T diesel as the AS-90.

M109A7 Paladin

Panda offers the M109A7 in 1/35.

I did a build review of it at Armorama:  https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=Reviews&file=index&req=showcontent&id=15016

It is pretty nice out of the box, but apparently it still has many of the prototype features as opposed to what is currently being fielded.  There is a great thread at Armorama now that shows what can be done to bring it up to the fielded version:  https://armorama.kitmaker.net/modules.php?op=modload&name=SquawkBox&file=index&req=viewtopic&topic_id=286988&page=1&ord=0

Gino, thank you for providing background information on the engine size and the M109A7 Paladin. My goal is to build every version of the M109 available. My M109A2 will have the interior and one of the others I hope will have that cool engine kit you reviewed. As time goes on, I hope to have five or six M109 versions.

GreySnake

The interior is really coming out nicely, looking forward to more.   

 

 

Gino, I just finished reading the review and build you did and Robert Skipper did on the M109A7 Paladin from Panda and it looks like a winner with some modification. Do you think Panda will come out with new tooling to correct these issues that Robert mentioned? I also checked Scalemates for manufactures of other M109 versions:

1. M109 L23 - Tamiya and AFV Club

2. M109A1 - None

3a. M109A2 - US Army version - AFV Club, Italeri and others

3b. M109A2 - Doher version - AFV Club

3c. M109A2 - IDF Rochev version - AFV Club

4. M109A3 - None

5. M109A4 - None

6. M109A5 - None

7. M109A6 Paladin - AFV Club, Academy, Italeri, Tamiya and Riich

8. M109A7 Paladin - Panda

Can the Real Model resin engine kit be used in the M109A2 Doher or IDF Rohev versions?

Harold

AFV Club currently offers all the major versions that make it pretty easy to build all the other versions by mixing and matching different parts from their existing kits.  Here is a rundown.

M108: AFV Club kit

M109: AFV Club kit

M109G - Germany: AFV Club kit

M109A1
Replaced the M126 gun (M109 gun) with a longer barreled, 39 caliber M185 gun.
To model: Use the M109 kit and replace the barrel with one from the M109A2 kit. Alternately, use IDF M109 Rochev 1983 kit and leave off all IDF parts.

M109A1 Rochev (1983) - IDF: AFV Club kit

M109A2: AFV Club kit

M109A2 Doher - IDF: AFV Club kit

M109A3
Rebuilt M109A1 to A2 standards; only external differences to an A2 are flotation bolts left on hull sides and lugs left on front lower plate.  To model: Use the M109 hull, but leave off the parts for the flotation collar on top of the hull under the front of the turret.  Also use M109A2 turret. 

M109A4
M109A2s and A3s with added NBC protection and a few other improvements; all intenal, no external differences to A2s.

M109A5
Replaced the M185 gun with the M284 gun (M109A6 gun). To model: Use the M109A2 kit and replace the barrel with one from the M109A6 kit.

M109A6: AFV Club kit

M109A7: Panda kit

Your best bet is to stick w/the AFV Club kits.  They are light years ahead of the old Italeri kits.  All the others are reboxes of Italeri's molds, with some minor updates in the Tamiya kits and usually some stowage and/or figures added.  The Kinetic A2/A3 isn't that good (about the same as Italeri) and is soft on details.  Riich Model never released thier A6.

I doubt Panda will come out w/an updated version, but who knows. 

The engine can be used on any version of the M109 up through the A6.  The engine layout didn't really change.

HeavyArty

AFV Club currently offers all the major versions that make it pretty easy to build all the other versions by mixing and matching different parts from their existing kits.  Here is a rundown.

M108: AFV Club kit

M109: AFV Club kit

M109G - Germany: AFV Club kit

M109A1
Replaced the M126 gun (M109 gun) with a longer barreled, 39 caliber M185 gun.
To model: Use the M109 kit and replace the barrel with one from the M109A2 kit. Alternately, use IDF M109 Rochev 1983 kit and leave off all IDF parts.

M109A1 Rochev (1983) - IDF: AFV Club kit

M109A2: AFV Club kit

M109A2 Doher - IDF: AFV Club kit

M109A3
Rebuilt M109A1 to A2 standards; only external differences to an A2 are flotation bolts left on hull sides and lugs left on front lower plate.  To model: Use the M109 hull, but leave off the parts for the flotation collar on top of the hull under the front of the turret.  

M109A4
M109A2s and A3s with added NBC protection and a few other improvements; all intenal, no external differences to A2s.

M109A5
Replaced the M185 gun with the M284 gun (M109A6 gun). To model: Use the M109A2 kit and replace the barrel with one from the M109A6 kit.

M109A6: AFV Club kit

M109A7: Panda kit

Your best bet is to stick w/the AFV Club kits.  They are light years ahead of the old Italeri kits.  All the others are reboxes of Italeri's molds, with some minor updates in the Tamiya kits and usually some stowage and/or figures added.  The Kinetic A2/A3 isn't that good (about the same as Italeri) and is soft on details.  Riich Model never released thier A6.

I doubt Panda will come out w/an updated version, but who knows. 

The engine can be used on any version of the M109 up through the A6.  The engine layout didn't really change.

 

Harold

That looks great! Love how the tracks came out. 

Gamera

That looks great! Love how the tracks came out.

 

I also received some Evergreen Scale Models stock to rebuild the rammer in styrene on the M109A2 barrel and breechblock assembly. The resin loader-rammer was very rough and poorly modeled as you can see in the second photograph below. I would not bother with it except the rammer is easily seen through the turret door.

Harold

Saw this today--a 1966 review of Field Artillery

Which may get some Red Leg juices going, too.

Along with some "hey, why aren't there kits of" questions, too.

Thank you CapnMac82, this is the most complete video I have seen of US Army artillery from the Vietnam War. If I was 50-year younger, I would do it again.

Harold

Sergeant

Thank you CapnMac82, this is the most complete video I have seen of US Army artillery from the Vietnam War. If I was 50-year younger, I would do it again.

Harold

Not a problem.  I shared that one around a bit.  Particularly an HS & university buddy who was assigned to a Pershhing Battery near Ulm.

And to my ROTC buddy who was in a Marine M-110 battery before moving on up to retire an O-5

In my while as a beachmaster I had to get a bunch of those over the littoral and onshore (and back again).

Seeing althose guys in OG-107 and M-56 takes me back, too.

Harold: That ammo looks great! 

Captain: Ohhhhhhh, cool video!

Gamera

Harold: That ammo looks great!

 

M109A2:

As I mentioned a short time ago, I decided to replace the Black Dog resin 155mm ammunition with AFV Club styrene because the quality of the Black Dog product was not equal to the AFV Club M109A2 model.

I purchased two AFV Club ammunition kits #35017 and used part of one kit to rebuild the ammunition storage box. Please see photograph #3 below. I also removed the resin rings in three locations for up-right ammunition storage on the deck to make way for styrene ammunition. See photograph #2. This was a lot easier than I thought it would be, but since I had most of the interior hand painting completed, I decided to repaint this area by hand also.

I still need to paint the Smoke and Illumination projectiles, then give all the ammunition a clear satin coat and decals. Gino has kindly provided artwork so I can print my own projectile and powder canister labels. When the ammunition is finished, I can continue the turret and remaining exterior hull assembly. I painted enough High Explosive (HE) projectiles to have three crates of ammunition for the M54A2 cargo truck I plan to build next January.

I also rebuilt the loader-rammer from styrene because the resin parts were very poorly made. See photographs #4, Resin Rammer and #5, Styrene Rammer below.

#1

#2

#3

#4 Resin Rammer

#5 Styrene Rammer

M109 L23:

I completed assembly of the new AFV Club kit #35329 and its ready for primer. See photographs #6 - #10 below. The assembly is like the M109A2 and it went together without a problem. Since I do not have an interior kit for this model, I closed all the doors and hatches and will paint it in the U.S. Army Vietnam period olive drab. As you can see, I did add Friulmodel metal tracks and a Eureka wire tow cable which I feel give the model a realistic appearance.

The painting of this model will need to wait until I return from vacation. This year with all the restriction on travels my wife and I are planning to spend an extended period at our place on the Pacific Coast. Since I am limited in what I can do on vacation I plan to finish the styrene ammunition and start the next project. 

#6

#7

#8

#9

#10

British Army Group Build: 

I joined the British Army Group Build with Bish and other modelers from our FSM Forums. My project will be the AFV Club AEC Matador, World War II artillery tractor. See photographs #11 and 12 below. I have until the end of the year to finish this model, but I will get a head start on vacation. I also plan to build the British Bofors 40mm Anti-Aircraft gun during the Christmas holiday to go with the Matador. See photograph #13.

#11

#12

#13

Harold, All your detail work looks great and it sounds as if you have your projects stacked up pretty good. You have a great vacation!

Thats another nice looking piece you have there with the A3. Loks very differant with that short gun.

And looking forward to seeing what you do with that matador, your deffinetly knocking out the AFV Club kits there. But remeber, it doesn't have to be done by the end of the year, so please don't rush anything.

That's coming along great!!! 

And the Matador and Bofors look cool!  

They are both coming along nicely.  Great work so far.

Thats another nice looking piece you have there with the A3.

No M109A3 here.  The second one (short barrel) is a straight M109.  It is the first version in the series and predecessor to the M109A2, which is the one he is building w/an interior.

HeavyArty

They are both coming along nicely.  Great work so far.

 

 

Thats another nice looking piece you have there with the A3.

 

 

No M109A3 here.  The second one (short barrel) is a straight M109.  It is the first version in the series and predecessor to the M109A2, which is the one he is building w/an interior.

 

Thanks for the correction Gino.

Bish

HeavyArty

They are both coming along nicely.  Great work so far.

 

 

Thats another nice looking piece you have there with the A3.

  

No M109A3 here.  The second one (short barrel) is a straight M109.  It is the first version in the series and predecessor to the M109A2, which is the one he is building w/an interior.

 

Thanks for the correction Gino.

 

Harold

8:30 AM Tuesday, September 8, 2020

10:15 AM Tuesday, September 8, 2020

Be careful and stay safe.

Please stay as safe as possible. Just got back from Yreka California where the smoke was so thick I thought I was back in So Cal in 1965. Thick smoke for 1120 miles each way.

These SP guns are coming along very nicely. I love the interior on the A2. I need to make a tank with the interior like when I used to make the old 1/48 scale Bandai Panzers. Enjoy what you can of your vacation but be safe Harold. Semper Fi Brother!

TigerII

These SP guns are coming along very nicely. I love the interior on the A2. I need to make a tank with the interior like when I used to make the old 1/48 scale Bandai Panzers. Enjoy what you can of your vacation but be safe Harold. Semper Fi Brother!

 

YOW!!! Glad you guys are okay too!!! 

We got a bit of rain from the recent hurricane but that's what we consider 'extreme' weather! 

Gamera

YOW!!! Glad you guys are okay too!!! 

We got a bit of rain from the recent hurricane but that's what we consider 'extreme' weather! 

 

US Air Force released news flash 5 hours ago. In an amazing first, an artillery cannon took out a cruise missile.

An M109 Paladin 155 mm howitzer made history recently by shooting down a fast-moving maneuvering cruise missile with a “hypervelocity projectile” able to travel at speeds up to Mach 5, [or about 3,800 mph] according to an Air Force announcement. Historically, armored vehicles such as tanks, howitzers or infantry carriers have not operated with an ability to destroy fast-moving, long-range cruise missiles, yet the successful demonstration breaks new ground.

The shoot-down, which took place at White Sands Missile Range, New Mexico, destroyed a “surrogate” Russian cruise missile target using the Air Force’s Advanced Battle Management System (ABMS).

In development for several years now, ABMS represents an Air Force technical initiative to engineer a “meshed” network of otherwise disconnected sensor “nodes” throughout a theater of combat operations. While an Air Force program, the effort is intended by all estimations to inform the Pentagon’s broader Joint All Domain Command and Control (JADC2) technological system.

The concept with JADC2 is to integrate sensor-to-shooter capabilities across air-land-sea-space and cyber domains in real-time, decreasing latency, expediting attacks and bringing new dimensions to “joint warfare.”

Excerpt from article by Kris Osborn, Managing Editor of Warrior Maven and The Defense Editor of The National Interest.

Who said you can't teach an old-dog new tricks?

Harold

Glad you are okay! 

The M109 is looking really good!