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M41 "Sales Tool"

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  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
M41 "Sales Tool"
Posted by RBaer on Sunday, May 12, 2024 4:10 PM

Or: "How not to waste a perfectly good Tamiya M41 kit".

I was looking through the Fred Crismon book "US Military Tracked Vehicles" a while back and was intrigued by a pic of an M41 with a Cadillac Gage/Royal Ordinance turret, which later became part of the Stingray. The idea was to offer a cost-effective way to modernize existing fleets of M41s, still in service in many smaller armies. I liked the look of it, a lot, and since I nearly always have a couple of Tamiya M41 kits laying around, I decided to give it a try. About that time I also received, in error, a set of metal indie link Bradley tracks that just happened to fit the M41 sprockets perfectly, as if they were actually designed to fit the M41 instead of the Bradley. I even tried them on a Tamiya Bradley sprocket, and they fit the M41 part better. Then I figured I would go ahead and "modernize" the M41 a bit too, so I was this far when I realized I had one pic of the subject and two of the turret on the Stingray. I scratched the fenders, added some additional bow armor, used Dragon M48 stowage boxes and some cut-down M47 mufflers while I pondered how to do the turret.

 IMG_4261 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

I was then shown a few pics of Royal Thai Army Stingrays and one M41 with a Stingray turret, so I started building a turret. I had also orderded a HobbyBoss V-150 with a Cadillac Gage turret, but it turned out to be a two-man turret, about one third the size of what I was wanting to build, but it was useful as a rough guide. Pic below:

 IMG_4292 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

Basing measurements and proportions off pictures, I got a basic form built, using the M41 turret ring as a starting point.

 IMG_4283 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

After more study of the pics, I got the roof and mantlet done, adding the bulge for the commander's hatch and the gunner's sight. I shot it in Krylon primer to check for symmetry and such.

 IMG_4295 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4296 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

I was reasonably happy with it so I block sanded it, mocked up a gun tube and drew in where I think the hatches need to go.

 IMG_4299 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

Pic below shows the actual (I think) length of the gun tube.

 IMG_4297 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

This is one of those fun builds to keep my *** up while I build a Tamiya Cr2 largely OOB, using just some basic PE and RFM tracks. I've found that I have to have AT LEAST two models going at any one time or I get bored. Hmmm.....

 

 

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, May 12, 2024 4:34 PM

That's pretty cool, nad a unique sort of subject.

I could not help but think of the proposed by General Dynamics but never fielded (to my knowledge) M-60 conversion where an M-1 turret was grafted on. 

Memry gets murky on whether the notion was to use the L45 105mm turrets or the 120mm ones--and either would be a cool model in their way, too.

I want to remember it was considered for those nations with M48 as well.

Mind, the mental images of an M48 or M60 chassis with an M1 turret with the cupola weapons station fit, do intirue a touch.

Further, a conversion of the 48/60 to the Mine Countermeasures turret assemby could also be interesting, too.

Your Mileage May Vary.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Sunday, May 12, 2024 8:50 PM

CapnMac82

That's pretty cool, nad a unique sort of subject.

I could not help but think of the proposed by General Dynamics but never fielded (to my knowledge) M-60 conversion where an M-1 turret was grafted on. 

Memry gets murky on whether the notion was to use the L45 105mm turrets or the 120mm ones--and either would be a cool model in their way, too.

I want to remember it was considered for those nations with M48 as well.

Mind, the mental images of an M48 or M60 chassis with an M1 turret with the cupola weapons station fit, do intirue a touch.

Further, a conversion of the 48/60 to the Mine Countermeasures turret assemby could also be interesting, too.

Your Mileage May Vary.

 

The M60-2000 was a GDLS upgrade with a 120 mm Abrams turret on the M60 chassis. Only one was built.

There was/is a Sabra upgrade to Turkish M60A3 to add a 120 mm gun with sort of Abrams/Merkava looking turret features instead of an entire Abrams turret.

https://www.army-technology.com/projects/sabra/?cf-view

Great looking built there Russel. I will always say that the old Tamiya Walker Bulldog is a good kit to work with.

  • Member since
    February 2024
Posted by S Hollowell on Tuesday, May 14, 2024 6:52 AM

Good work!

 

S.H.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, June 6, 2024 7:54 AM

S Hollowell

Good work!

 

S.H.

 

Thanks!

So after some careful consideration, and taking into account I had one more Tamiya M41 in the stash, I decided to do this as accurately as possible, given my very limited references and the rather "basic" Tamiya kit. I also had a set of actual M41 tracks arrive, ebay specials, that are actually very nice. 

First to do was turret work. Hatches and vision devices are done, based on some ground-lvel pics and one simple line drawing I found on the web of a Stingray, probably based on the WoT examples. I still have the turret basket and main gun to do but it's coming along. Also begun is the "new" hull, on which I have removed the simplified mufflers and heat shields, intending to completely re-do them. Running gear is done. I had to widen the sprockets by .020" to fit the tracks, and use 74 links per side instead of the actual 75 the real thing used. I think the links are a tad big but it's not a noticeable thing. I made the hatches operable in case I want to add figs later. Weld beads are stretched sprue, softened and textured.

I haven't decided if I'm going to make the actual prototype or one of the converted examples used by the Thai Army.

Pics so far:

 IMG_4313 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4314 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4315 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4311 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 

 

 

 

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    February 2024
Posted by S Hollowell on Saturday, June 8, 2024 6:56 AM

That is really detailed!

 

S.H.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Saturday, June 8, 2024 7:39 PM

I got the gun tube about 90% done today, wife is out of town so i had a modelpalooza.

I used a Takom Chieftain barrel, a Trumpeter Centauro muzzle brake and a bunch of plastic tube stock over brass tube to line it all up. The bellows is made from a bunch of rings cut from tube and stacked onto a piece of smaller tube, then formed a bit while chucked up in a cordless drill. It's coated with MrSurfacer so I can clean up any booboos.

 IMG_4323 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4322 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

And purely for fun, I'm playing around with the other hull, and I do mean "playing".

 IMG_4325 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

Baby M103? Anime tank?

I just realized I should have done the goofy one for April 1st....

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, June 9, 2024 1:09 PM

Oh that's cool! Reminds of the Polish prototype tank Real G posted here a year or so ago that looks like the ones from the coin-op 'Battlezone'. 

Like the giant barrel on both turrets, bit of intimidation factor there for the enemy tank crews eh? 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, June 18, 2024 5:41 PM

Something about carrying a big stick maybe? I've got something else percolating but I need to get at least one of these and the Tamiya Cr2 I'm also working on done first.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, June 25, 2024 3:40 PM

More on the turret. I was getting hesitant to do anything because I couldn't find any good detail shots of what I needed, and the ones I have show a slightly different turret on the actual Stingray than what appears to be in the original pic I started from. Thinking I ought to just go ahead and do it as best I could, I got busy again and built up a bustle basket and side racks. They look the part so I'm happy, of course until better pics show up and I can tell where I goofed. In this case, I hope ignorance is bliss. Anyway, pics:

 IMG_4341 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4343 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4342 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

While I was there I also started cleaning up the upper glacis so I could do the lights and brush guards, driver's hatch rests and welds. 

I'm still wondering what to do with the other hull I have going. It looks a little too comical with the M48 turret on it.

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Tuesday, June 25, 2024 7:48 PM

Looks good to me! Yes

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, June 27, 2024 1:54 PM

Thanks. I've got a few more detail bits done on the turret, very nearly finished with it. Then it's on to the hull.

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Saturday, June 29, 2024 11:13 AM

I got off work early yesterday, so after a couple of hours in my happy place, I'm calling the turret done unless I decide to detail the insides of the hatches.

Turret MG and wind sensor are Takom parts, from one of the M60H kits I have parts left from, smoke paunchers are mostly Tamiya Cr2 parts and the rear lifting eyes are out of a Tamiya Bradley, left over from the FART build. 

I can see differences between what I've built and the examples of Stingrays in Thai Army service, but not so much in the pic of the original demo, so I'm thinking they may be due to production and prototype examples. I'll keep telling myself that. Anyway, pics as of last night:

 IMG_4354 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4352 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4351 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

I plan on fixing the really obviously "wrong" stuff on the Tamiya hull and adding a few missing details but I don't want to go nuts on it (meaning I'd like to actually finish this model).  We'll see how far I get with that.

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    February 2024
Posted by S Hollowell on Saturday, June 29, 2024 6:25 PM

Looking nice, Russel!

 

S.H.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, July 2, 2024 2:52 PM

Thanks!

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, July 5, 2024 9:10 PM

She's coming along really well! Yes

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Thursday, July 11, 2024 7:36 PM

Thanks G. I've had a couple of afternoons in my happy place and have a fair amount of hull stuff done. Mufflers are made and mounted and the headlights, splash shields and brush guards are made and mounted.

Mufflers are made from laminated plastic sheet, shaped and with Tamiya ends added. I knew I was hanging on to that old box of Eastern Express KV parts for something.....

On the front, I made the headlight splash shields from stock, added welds and mounted the kit headlights after cleaning them up. I considered making the brush guards from brass, but in the end I just thinned the kit parts, given that the real things are kind of chunky anyway. Lift rings are out of an M60 kit. 

After cutting the fenders as was done on later builds, I trimmed them with stock and made new (and missing from the kit) front braces from stock. Now that I've cut the fenders, I know the aux generator's muffler will be on the right front fender, next to the tool rack, so I can move forward there too.

I still have to add the braces and stops for the driver's hatch, then I can move on to the rear hull.

Pics so far:

 IMG_4363 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4362 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4361 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4360 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

It may very well have been faster to have used the AFV Club kit as a starting point, but that would have been easy and where's the fun in that? Big Smile

 

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Thursday, July 11, 2024 9:42 PM

Wow, thanks for putting up the bare plastic parts before painting so we can see all the work you put in there. 

She's lookin' good!!! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Friday, July 12, 2024 6:28 AM

Hi!

 Well, I have seen tanks tha look "Bad",And I've seen them that look "Good" but you've done an gone and created one that looks "Good'n Bad".   T.B.

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Friday, July 12, 2024 3:07 PM

Thanks G. It's a "work in progress", right?

T-B, maybe it needs a soundtrack from a spaghetti western playing in the background.....

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Friday, July 12, 2024 9:56 PM

LOL guys, now I'm thinking of the Korean Western 'The Good, The Bad, The Weird' which she kinda is all of them Stick out tongue

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Fort Knox
Posted by Rob Gronovius on Saturday, July 13, 2024 11:40 PM

You're really hitting on all cylinders with this build. I really enjoy seeing what you've done.

This continues to confirm my thoughts that this kit is really worth its cost and will be a good tank kit for the beginner and expert.

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: East Stroudsburg, PA
Posted by TigerII on Sunday, July 14, 2024 5:23 PM

Gamera

Wow, thanks for putting up the bare plastic parts before painting so we can see all the work you put in there. 

She's lookin' good!!! 

 

Yes indeed. Seeing all the different parts you added in their original plastic color really shows all the great work you've done here. I can't believe that I haven't checked this post out sooner, although I have been busy with two (2) projects of my own. Excellent work so far RBaer. this is really exceptional.

Achtung Panzer! Colonel General Heinz Guderian
  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Tuesday, July 16, 2024 5:57 PM

Thanks all! At tthe risk of sounding like a broken record, I like this kind of modeling, a lot.

I have pretty much everything done now, maybe except for tow cable brackets and a cable, so primer is in my future.

 IMG_4367 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4370 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 IMG_4371 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

I was thinking about how to do the muffler heat shields and thought I'd try thinning a kit part, just to see if it would work, and it actually came out nicely. I did the other side, trimmed them to the correct depth and moved on. The tool rack is an extra from a DEF M47 set, tools out of the spares.

 

 

 

Apprentice rivet counter.

  • Member since
    June 2004
  • From: East Stroudsburg, PA
Posted by TigerII on Wednesday, July 17, 2024 5:21 PM

I was thinking if you had some PE, it might look more realistic. Just my 2 cents. This is coming out really well. Looking forward to the painting, weathering and finish product.

Achtung Panzer! Colonel General Heinz Guderian
  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: SW Virginia
Posted by Gamera on Sunday, July 21, 2024 1:16 PM

Yeah, she's coming along nicely!!! Have you decided on how you're painting her yet? Green would be nice but I'm thinking MERDC would look fantastic! I'd be half tempted to paint a grinning shark mouth on the lower half of the wedge shaped turret! 

"I dream in fire but work in clay." -Arthur Machen

 

  • Member since
    September 2006
  • From: Dripping Springs, TX, USA
Posted by RBaer on Sunday, July 21, 2024 4:14 PM

Shark mouth would be nifty, but at this point I'm either going for solid green as tested by the US or the hull solid green with the turret in a mottled brown over green as tested by the Thai Army. I'm in a group build on another board, the theme being "best tank that never was" so I'm trying to do it as factual as I can, although it's real tempting to do this scheme:

 IMG_4269 by Russel Baer, on Flickr

 

I forgot to get pics but before I shot the green on it I made up an aux muffler and finished the gun travel lock. I'll get pics up asap.

Apprentice rivet counter.

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