Mobelwagen Flak 43 3.7cm Complete 09-01-08

Wow you sure do work fast! You're already done with the lower hull and I must say it looks great so far! Nice to see come kitbashing, don't seem to see alot of that nowadays.

I'll be waiting for your next update.

Bill,

I picked up on this build almost instantly when I read the header. But what I'm really interested in is the 37mm gun kit. Tell us about it!!

gary

Roy, I picked this one up on a trip to the Philippines in 2005 at bargain-basement rates (can't beat Manila kit prices!) and have been holding on to it ever since. Your project sounds much more ambitious though, sounds like it needs to come off the shelf and get some love!

squeakie wrote:

Bill, I picked up on this build almost instantly when I read the header. But what I'm really interested in is the 37mm gun kit. Tell us about it!! gary

Squeakie, at first glance the kit looks impressive and is a close copy of the Tamiya molding but with better bolt detail and definition. It includes a turned brass barrel with integrated flash suppressor as well as PE for the gun splinter shield and other parts/details. The kit is designed with this in mind so there's no surgery required to fit them to the gun parts as would be required with the Tamiya parts. The LR PE detail is better than the Eduard PE IMHO, so it makes some of the Eduard parts redundant, particularly in regards to things like the spent shell basket netting. The LR kit also includes spent brass rounds to populate that area, a nice bonus IMHO.

WN,

This one's not that complicated of a kit-bashing exercise, the LR gun is virtually a 1-for-1 swap out for the Tamiya parts. The base of the LR gun is designed exactly the same as the Tamiya part so it will mount seamlessly to the Tamiya hull. Now if I were adding a Tristar suspension or similar, now THAT would be a more complicated endeavor. 

A Tamiya is a sudden change of pace, but with all those goodies it's like pimpin' your ride!    I always liked Anti-Aircraft AFV's and this should be a fun build to watch!

Panther F wrote:

A Tamiya is a sudden change of pace, but with all those goodies it's like pimpin' your ride!    I always liked Anti-Aircraft AFV's and this should be a fun build to watch!

Thanks Panther, this particular kit was released in 2001 IIRC so it's not quite as old as some of the other Tamiya offerings out there. The rubber-band one piece tracks were just awful but other than that it stands up well, at least so far. I hear you on the attraction of self-propelled AA designs, the Germans certainly had a penchant for putting AA guns on anything that was strong enough to carry them.

wbill76 wrote:

Work began today on a new project, one that I've wanted to do for a while but held off on for a variety of reasons. Lion Roar's recent release of the Flak 43 3.7cm kit is what finally pushed me into the build though, so here goes. I'll be using the Lion Roar kit for the gun as well as Eduard's PE and Model Kasten replacement tracks. Since this is a multi-media build and kitbash/combination exercise, the kit instructions steps will not necessarily be followed to the letter. I started with the lower hull and suspension first, installing the bogies, bump stops and final drive housings as called for in Steps 1 and 3 but left off the return rollers for the time being. The rear hull plate had it's various elements installed and I used the Eduard PE items to replace the fuel filler cap since it included the retaining chain. The chain was given a 3-D look by carefully bending the flat links 90 degrees to each other using two pairs of tweezers and working one link at a time. PE mounts for the base of the exhaust covers were also added and the rear plate installed to the lower hull. Next came the road wheels, return rollers, sprockets, and idlers. The kit provides the option for both the earlier welded-tube style and the later cast style idler, I opted for the later style. The sprockets include a polycap insert that will allow them to rotate freely while the idlers do not. The steel return rollers were assembled but not installed since a dry-fit shows they've got a little bit of play to their mounts and I want them to be lined up properly with the rest of the running gear, so they will get installed later on. All of the road wheel halves were removed from the sprues and sanded to remove a slight seam on the rubber portion and the outer halves received their hub caps. Turning to the upper hull, the side air intakes were added along with the rear fenders, mud flaps, and rear deck plate. The rear deck plate required two molded-on areas originally used on earlier Pz IVs to mount tow cables to be removed, this was done using a #11 blade and carefully sanded down to match the rest of the hull. The kit parts for the intake covers were replaced with the Eduard items and the retaining wing nuts and side hull clips added. I used Gator Glue, an acrylic binder, to mount the plates and the various parts to allow for some work time to position them properly.  I also added the bolt strip detail to the top and bottom of the rear hull bracket, using liquid glue to soften the plastic and gently pressed the strip into place with the tip of a wooden toothpick. The hull front also received some attention with the access hatches added for the driver and radio operator, the front superstructure plate installed, and details added to the front fenders and mud-flaps. The Eduard items were used here along with a short length of solder bent to shape and glued in place with CA gel to complete the Bosch headlight wiring. Next up was the interior of the fighting compartment, I removed the simplified molded on handles for the two rear access panels and replaced them with the Eduard parts. The Eduard set included additional detail for this area including the hatch hinges and retaining clips and handles, so these were added as well. The side ammunition bins were also installed and detailed. The top of the bin had a molded-on ladder shaped item, this was removed and replaced with the Eduard part which was bent to shape and glued in place. The ammunition bin faces are molded smooth on the Tamiya parts, so the Eduard PE faces were used to upgrade this area. The reinforced "X" patterns were created using the point of a wooden toothpick and a piece of hard, but flexible, rubber matting to allow the "X" to be embossed on the outer surface. Eduard allows for this with the inner faces having the X pattern already etched and recommend using a ball-point pin to do this but I've found the toothpick provides a more reliable and consistent pattern and used that instead. Each of the bins received 2 latches which were carefully bent to shape using tweezers and a magnifier and installed with Gator Glue to allow for proper positioning. Rounding things out for the time being, the lower and upper hulls were joined using regular glue to get a good solid bond. Additional details were then added to the hull including the front Bosch light and "d"-shaped flap support, brake housing vents, rear side grab handles, front tow pintles and spare track holder, and the rear antenna mount. Next up will be the side walls for the fighting compartment, the kit allows for 3 different modes (full transport, AA only, AA and ground) for the plates and I'll have to study that carefully to determine the placement and use of the various Eduard items to create those details.

I'm suprised you haven't tried the Tristar running gear replacement set it also has a fully functional road wheels and replacement return rollers as well bumpers for the Ausf D through Ausf H which are way better than the molded on bumpers on the Tamiya kit. As in fully functioning road wheels even the suspension works too.

Mikey,

It's true the Tristar suspension set is fully workable but since this one will not be on a base or posed, there's really no added-value in replacing them and putting in the extra work to fit them. The bump-stops on the Mobelwagen aren't molded on to the hull, they are separate pieces, and are the correct style for the IV-J hull used on these vehicles whereas the Tristar bump stops are correct for the earlier chassis as you point out. The Tamiya supplied steel return rollers are also correct and using rubber-rimmed return rollers from the Tristar set wouldn't be accurate. 

SWEEEEET! it's realy cool to see a bit of kitbashing now and then. Can't wait for the next update.

Mikeym_us wrote:

I believe the return rollers in the TriStar kit are both the Steel and the Rubber type. And of course remember not to remove any seams on the road wheels as those are supposed to be there.

Good to know about the steel rollers, didn't realize the Tristar set included both. As for the seams on the wheels, that's true only if you want to depict a brand new set of tires. Wouldn't take very long once in use for them to be worn down.

Stick Man, appreciate the comments, thanks for looking!

Bill,

So far it its looking very good and I like the PE work. Must've cost a pretty penny eh? Definately looking forward to more of this, as this is one of my favorite deviations from the original Pz. IV. What scheme are you going to paint it in?

Tigertankman wrote:

Bill, So far it its looking very good and I like the PE work. Must've cost a pretty penny eh? Definately looking forward to more of this, as this is one of my favorite deviations from the original Pz. IV. What scheme are you going to paint it in?

TTman, I got the kit a few years back in Manila for around $20 and I waited until GM had a sale to pick up the Eduard set for about $10 IIRC. The MK tracks were normal price of $25 and the most expensive item was the LR Flak 43 since it's a new release at $35. Under $100 for the whole lot, not bad considering. I usually watch for the sales on places like Great Models and others to pick up goodies over time, spreads out the cost and some great bargains can be had if patient.

As far as scheme, it will be a three tone "worm" type pattern common to these kinds of AA platforms.  

wbill76 wrote:

Tigertankman wrote: Bill, So far it its looking very good and I like the PE work. Must've cost a pretty penny eh? Definately looking forward to more of this, as this is one of my favorite deviations from the original Pz. IV. What scheme are you going to paint it in? TTman, I got the kit a few years back in Manila for around $20 and I waited until GM had a sale to pick up the Eduard set for about $10 IIRC. The MK tracks were normal price of $25 and the most expensive item was the LR Flak 43 since it's a new release at $35. Under $100 for the whole lot, not bad considering. I usually watch for the sales on places like Great Models and others to pick up goodies over time, spreads out the cost and some great bargains can be had if patient. As far as scheme, it will be a three tone "worm" type pattern common to these kinds of AA platforms.

Well I also have the same kit I think I got it for 15 bucks on Ebay I also picked up some 37mm ammo for the Flak43 from Armorscale. just need to find a source of metal clips for the ammo.

wbill76 wrote:

Roy, I picked this one up on a trip to the Philippines in 2005 at bargain-basement rates (can't beat Manila kit prices!) and have been holding on to it ever since. Your project sounds much more ambitious though, sounds like it needs to come off the shelf and get some love!  squeakie wrote: Bill, I picked up on this build almost instantly when I read the header. But what I'm really interested in is the 37mm gun kit. Tell us about it!! gary Squeakie, at first glance the kit looks impressive and is a close copy of the Tamiya molding but with better bolt detail and definition. It includes a turned brass barrel with integrated flash suppressor as well as PE for the gun splinter shield and other parts/details. The kit is designed with this in mind so there's no surgery required to fit them to the gun parts as would be required with the Tamiya parts. The LR PE detail is better than the Eduard PE IMHO, so it makes some of the Eduard parts redundant, particularly in regards to things like the spent shell basket netting. The LR kit also includes spent brass rounds to populate that area, a nice bonus IMHO. WN, This one's not that complicated of a kit-bashing exercise, the LR gun is virtually a 1-for-1 swap out for the Tamiya parts. The base of the LR gun is designed exactly the same as the Tamiya part so it will mount seamlessly to the Tamiya hull. Now if I were adding a Tristar suspension or similar, now THAT would be a more complicated endeavor.

I have the same basic trac with the quad 20mm cannon, but have also been thinking about adding the same basic kit you have to my stash for an eventual build up. Your right about Lion Roar PE, and I've got a few sets, and in my own opinion I think it's better with many more options. And while on this same subject; have you ever built the "Ostwind?"

gary

Gary,

So far in the build the kit has held up to the usual Tamiya standard in terms of fit and engineering, I'm enjoying it. From what I understand the Flakvierling kit was produced first and then they came out with the Flak 43 later, kind of like the actual vehicle where the Flakvierling was the initial prototype and then replaced with the heavier gun. 

I've built Tamiya's Wirbelwind a long time back but not the Ostwind, do you know who has it available in kit form?

wbill76 wrote:

Gary, So far in the build the kit has held up to the usual Tamiya standard in terms of fit and engineering, I'm enjoying it. From what I understand the Flakvierling kit was produced first and then they came out with the Flak 43 later, kind of like the actual vehicle where the Flakvierling was the initial prototype and then replaced with the heavier gun.  I've built Tamiya's Wirbelwind a long time back but not the Ostwind, do you know who has it available in kit form?

I think Tamaiya did it, but it might have been DML. I've seen a couple of them, and it looks sorta like a Whirblewind with the 37mm cannon. I want one real bad.

gary

Panther F wrote:

The Ostwind?  Italeri No. 376.  I have it sitting on the "to do" shelf.

I started off the next round of effort by dealing with the rear hull details that I didn't quite get to last weekend. The mufflers were added along with their Eduard PE braces, a bit of a challenge as the braces need to be angled just right and are a square surface mating up to the rounded surface of the exhausts. I glued them first to the rear hull with Gator Glue, let that set up good and tight, then used a pair of tweezers and liquid glue to carefully attach them to the exhausts directly. Also added were the spare tire holders and the PE reflector for the left side mud-flap.

The next area of attention were the walls of the fighting compartment. The Tamiya kit offers three different options for posing these: fully flat, anti-aircraft mode, or transport mode. I decided for the middle-road approach with the anti-aircraft mode and this in turn required some surgery to the Tamiya parts. The Tamiya instructions rightly tell you to remove the molded-on wing nuts on the extension flaps here and I removed the molded on brackets and replaced them with the Eduard items and wing nuts. There were some slight ejector marks on the inner surfaces that also needed attention, these were carefully sanded down to remove them.

The side panels also had some ejector marks that needed to be sanded down, so this was done first before mounting anything. The Tamiya instructions were followed to mount all the various components, the exceptions being the spare barrels and their retaining clips. I used the Eduard clips and carefully removed the molded on clips from the Tamiya parts by cutting away the excess with sprue cutters first then carefully trimming the rest down with a #11 blade. The surface was then lightly sanded to keep the rounded shape and the two barrel ends were drilled out with a pin vise so that they look like barrels and not solid tubes.

The barrels are only dry-fit into the clips for photo purposes, they will be painted and installed later on after the interior has been painted.

Next came the incredibly tricky task of installing all the panel and getting them to play nice with each other. The Tamiya instructions recommend using clear tape for this step and it's not hard to see why. The panels are designed to be fully workable and since I went with the anti-aircraft mode, the only thing holding them together are the little hooks on either side. Instead of using tape, I carefully braced the panels using toothpicks and needle files and just a touch of liquid glue at the corners to get them to stay together and let it dry for some time to insure everything would stay in the desired location. Not hard to see why they nicknamed this thing a "furniture van"!

With the fighting compartment out of the way, I started in on the Lion Roar Flak 37. Once I had the instructions out and started studying them and comparing it to the Tamiya instructions, it's not hard to see where LR got their inspiration. The assembly steps are virtually identical right down to the parts breakdowns but the LR parts do have better detail definition, so I don't feel like it was a waste.

First up was the base installation of the gun parts along with the barrel. I used the Eduard PE part for the barrel splinter shield because it had better detail. I annealed it on the kitchen stove gas burner and used the Tamiya part to curve it to shape before gluing in place. The LR barrel was mounted and I actually had to enlarge slightly the provided mount holes, go figure, for it to fit but nothing serious.

The rest of the gun base was also constructed following the LR directions for their Step 2. I used the Eduard items to replace the crew foot rests as the LR parts were plain with no tread plate detail. The two tiny loops were added using the LR supplied parts for this side with another three added to the opposite side. I took care to construct the base in firing mode vs. travel mode since the LR kit is designed to be the towed version. I also carefully attached the bearing races for the gun elevation so they would remain positionable, something the Tamiya instructions tell you about but the LR ones do not.

The gun was then installed to the mount along with the ammo feed tray in LR Step 3. The weight of the gun and barrel made it immediately apparent that I would have to fix the gun into position before mounting it into the vehicle.  

I test fit the gun into the Tamiya mounting point and then ran a small bit of liquid glue into the elevation races to secure the gun at the desired angle. Once that had dried and I could handle it without it shifting, I added the rest of the gun equipment in the form of the ready ammunition rack on the left side for the LR Step 4. This was a very delicate operation to install it properly has it is mounted in a swivel between the two supports, so I had to use gravity and some strategically positioned toothpicks to get it to dry in the correct position.

I also installed the styrene part that the LR kit provides as the mount post for the splinter shield even though it's not called out in the instructions, it's there just like in the Tamiya kit. In an oddly complicated alternative, the LR instructions actually call for using a length of brass rod and two PE parts to form the mount and the brass rod is conveniently provided as part of the set...yet the styrene part will do just fine if you don't want to go that route.

The right side also received quite a bit of attention with the crew seats added along with the gun laying wheels. The gun sight was also constructed and installed and I used a drill bit to deepen the eye piece and to drill out the external face since it was solid. I used the Eduard PE piece for the shell ejector tray since the LR part didn't have any bend lines provided which would've made that a much harder proposition to get it bent to the right shape.

Next up will come the big challenge, constructing the splinter shield and mounting that.

 Hello wbill76,

 A very neat build so far, the 37mm AA gun looks great. That LR barrel is a cool tool. I was wondering about those. I believe they are sold seperately as detail upgrade for the Tamiya gun. The toothpick embossing tip will come in handy, when ever I get around to building that Panther in the "Stash Horde". Thanks for posting.

 Best Regards,

Mobious wrote:

Hello wbill76,  A very neat build so far, the 37mm AA gun looks great. That LR barrel is a cool tool. I was wondering about those. I believe they are sold seperately as detail upgrade for the Tamiya gun. The toothpick embossing tip will come in handy, when ever I get around to building that Panther in the "Stash Horde". Thanks for posting.  Best Regards,

Thanks Mobious, you're right, the LR barrel is indeed sold separately. I know this because I have one in the stash that I acquired before the LR full kit was available. The LR kit is still worth the effort though IMHO as it includes the LR pieces for the gun shield which have some very nice detail on them but are going to take several soldering sessions and a lot of patience for me to assemble.

Wow great job! this build is making me won't to go buy the kit. GREAT work!

Stick Man, appreciate the comments! It's been an enjoyable build so far, the usual Tamiya quality on fit and engineering. If you can find one, I recommend it.

wing_nut wrote:

Nice PE work Bill.  The LR gun looks real nice too.   I was thinking about getting the LR barrel for the 251/17 Flak 38 I have been assigned in Dupes GB.  After seeing the barrel on your gun it is a must.

The one piece brass barrel with the flash guard integrated into it certainly makes for a nice touch. Not sure if their Flak 38 barrel is the same, usually for the 2.0cm barrel other makers like Armorscale or Griffon have the suppressor separate in brass from an aluminum barrel. Either way, it definitely is a plus over the typical styrene-molded barrels for sure.

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Wow...this is nice...looks like a later Mk IV chassis as the exhaust is of a later vehicle...

Thanks MR, the Mobelwagens were produced right up until the war's end on new Pz IV chassis (as opposed to those sent back for repair/refit like with the Wirbelwinds and Ostwinds), so they got the same features incorporated into them as well like the later style exhausts. There are photos in Spielberger's "Panzer IV and Variants" of an early Mobelwagen in plain dunkelgelb with the earlier type "standard" Pz IV exhaust system, so both were possible depending on when they were built.

wbill76 wrote:

Stick Man, appreciate the comments! It's been an enjoyable build so far, the usual Tamiya quality on fit and engineering. If you can find one, I recommend it.  wing_nut wrote: Nice PE work Bill.  The LR gun looks real nice too.   I was thinking about getting the LR barrel for the 251/17 Flak 38 I have been assigned in Dupes GB.  After seeing the barrel on your gun it is a must. The one piece brass barrel with the flash guard integrated into it certainly makes for a nice touch. Not sure if their Flak 38 barrel is the same, usually for the 2.0cm barrel other makers like Armorscale or Griffon have the suppressor separate in brass from an aluminum barrel. Either way, it definitely is a plus over the typical styrene-molded barrels for sure.

Adler's Nest (a japanese company) makes some very nice Flak38 barrels I am concidering getting quite a few of them for my WirbelWind and Flak38 mounted MoelWagen both of which will either be in autum camo or the winter schemes.

Wow, how come im always last to the party. This build is great Bill. I just love your photo blog and quality write up. Not long now by the looks of it. Any ideas on paint yet?

...Guy

Luftwoller wrote:

Wow, how come im always last to the party. This build is great Bill. I just love your photo blog and quality write up. Not long now by the looks of it. Any ideas on paint yet? ...Guy

Thanks Guy, getting closer at least! Paint scheme will be three-tone worm pattern to take advantage of the big slab sides.

wbill76 wrote:

Luftwoller wrote: Wow, how come im always last to the party. This build is great Bill. I just love your photo blog and quality write up. Not long now by the looks of it. Any ideas on paint yet? ...Guy Thanks Guy, getting closer at least! Paint scheme will be three-tone worm pattern to take advantage of the big slab sides.

Now it would also be nice if there was a crew set to populate the Flak43 and also a set of metal 37mm ammo magazines this puppy would be ready for any diorama setting.

Panther F wrote:

I hope to see more of this soon!

The weekend is here, so an update will be forthcoming either today or tomorrow depending.

Heres a nice one to catch up on, great work Bill this kit has been on my ebay list for some time now i may step it up a little i really love the upgrades you have done

Thats going to be a beauty Bill. Can't wait to see some paint on it.

Terry.

Thanks Ron, glad to see you've returned safe-and-sound from your Caribbean get-away!

Terry, thanks for the comments! Spent the day today working on the gun shield and the spent shell basket, all that's left before paint now is putting on the various tool brackets on the fenders and such. That means painting is likely for next weekend depending.

After much back and forth comparing the pros and cons of the LR and Eduard PE sets for the gun shield, I ultimately decided in favor of the Eduard shield. While both required soldering to assemble, the Eduard set required far less although what was required did involve some very tricky joins to produce the desired result. I also realized that the LR shield was designed with the towed position in mind vs. deployed or on a vehicle and didn't easily allow for things like the small gunner's scope doors to be opened, a big negative for this particular project. I don't do a lot of soldering for the most part, but I keep a Radio Shack variable 20/40w iron handy along with solder, flux, and a "helping hands" set of clamps for when I do need it. After a couple of hours of careful work with the solder and bending the various angles, the shield was ready.

With the exterior completed, next up was adding all the interior side detail. This involved quite a few extra pieces from the Eduard set, all attached using Gator Glue into their various positions. I used one of the locking arms from the Tamiya kit and one from the LR kit as only one of the LR arms was long enough to do the job.

After numerous test fits, I used CA gel to attach the shield to the base of the gun and then installed the doors for the gunner's sight in the open position.

To round things out with the gun, I assembled the LR styrene parts for the spent shell basket and used the LR parts for the mesh as it had a finer pattern vs. what was supplied in the Eduard set. Ironically, these are the only major parts of PE from the LR kit that I ended up using. All of the pieces fit as designed and only the larger rectangular piece needed to be annealed to get it to fit to shape. Annealing something delicate like this takes extra care and I accomplished this by holding it above the flame on my kitchen stove burner so it would heat up but didn't put it directly into the flame. Delicate pieces that heat up too quickly can incinerate, a lesson I've learned the hard way in the past and was sure not to repeat this time around. I used liquid glue and the handle of a paint brush to carefully shape and attach the screens.

With that taken care of, the final task before painting could begin was to install all the various tools and clamps/hardware. I'd left this off until this stage to minimize the amount of handling and potential for breakage. I started first with the hull front, installing the jack, wire cutters, towing clevises, and the axe. Putty was required to fill in the mount holes and careful scraping away of the tread plate pattern to provide a smooth surface for the metal parts to bond to.

The right rear fender also got some attention with the installation of the hex wrench and the idler tensioning wrenches. The tensioning wrenches as originally supplied by Tamiya had no visible means of support or attachment, so the Eduard set helped tremendously here.

To round out the day's activity, I also installed the pry bar for the left fender and the fire extinguisher. The rear engine deck also received the pick axe

Weather permitting, painting should start next week!

You're a brave man, Bill, taking up that soldering iron! I applaud your work there; it looks tight!

What a great looking model in the raw! Should look delicious with a coat of DY on it!  

  Hey Bill once again an awsume wip of a very interesting subject.   

   Love the PE. The idea of soldering parts that small , I just dont know if I could do it!

   One question, would this be a veh. that originaly had the quad 2 cm Flak on it. 

 Hello wbill76,

 The gun shield looks like a lot of detail soldering, but well worth the effort. The spent round basket is very detailed and looks the part. A good looking WIP and will be looking forward to the paint.

 Best Regards,

A simple trick to annealing brass is to wipe a bit of normal, common or garden house soap on the piece to be annealed. Then hold the flame to the other side. When the soap turns black. Its done.

I thank you.

...Guy

the doog wrote:

You're a brave man, Bill, taking up that soldering iron! I applaud your work there; it looks tight! What a great looking model in the raw! Should look delicious with a coat of DY on it!

Thanks doog, soldering can be intimidating but the neat thing about it is that, if you screw-up, it's very easy to "undo" and start over. This particular soldering job was complicated in that the angled step on the shield was a separate piece and the rest of it was all one single piece. That meant all the facets had to be bent just so for it to work, then they had to be mated up and soldered...couldn't have done it without the "helping hands", definitely required that extra pair!

panzerguy wrote:

Hey Bill once again an awsume wip of a very interesting subject.       Love the PE. The idea of soldering parts that small , I just dont know if I could do it!    One question, would this be a veh. that originaly had the quad 2 cm Flak on it.

Panzerguy, appreciate the comments! I didn't solder everything (there are those out there who do though and my hat's off to them!), only the one angled piece. There are some things that can only be joined by soldering but once you take the plunge, it's not as hard as it looks, just needs patience and familiarity with the right tools/equipment.

On your other question, the Mobelwagen was originally intended to mount the quad 2.0cm Flakvierling but only the one prototype was built. Tests determined that the heavier punch and better altitude performance of the 3.7cm was needed and it was adopted instead as the production variant.

Mobious,

Thanks for the comments!

Luftwoller wrote:

A simple trick to annealing brass is to wipe a bit of normal, common or garden house soap on the piece to be annealed. Then hold the flame to the other side. When the soap turns black. Its done. I thank you. ...Guy

Guy, that's a great tip, will have to try it out sometime. For those who anneal with a candle flame or other low-heat source, that would be an excellent trip-wire method to use. I normally just use a pair of locking tweezers and the gas flame on the stove, heat it up until it's cherry red (doesn't take long, couple seconds normally), then pull it out and voila! annealed.

The shield looks great. One complex little bugger.

Luftwoller wrote:

A simple trick to annealing brass is to wipe a bit of normal, common or garden house soap on the piece to be annealed. Then hold the flame to the other side. When the soap turns black. Its done. I thank you. ...Guy

a very accurate way to anneal brass is to goto a welding supply house and buy a "temp stick" set for 400 degrees(f). Looks like a crayon, and when it melts your done.

gary

Specter wrote:

Did you have to do anything special to get the gun to fit in the hull or did everything just go together? The gun looks great by the way.

Specter,

The design of the base by LR is an exact copy of the Tamiya parts so no modification was required for it to fit. The only thing that is different is the diamater of the post, it's smaller on the LR part, so it doesn't fit into the polycap tightly and has a bit of wiggle room. That means it will have to be glued into a fixed position once it's painted instead of being able to rotate. Otherwise it was a smooth drop-fit. I actually thought I might have to do more work with it originally but the LR design is so close to the Tamiya parts, I believe they must have used the same plans/molds and just upgraded some of the details to achieve a better standard.  

Bill - I've been pretty spotty on the forums of late (summer business tends to take away a lot of my forum time, regrettably), and have missed this build up until now - very nice!

Question for you about the "annealing" process - what benefit does it have in the PE arena? I know that annealing brass for other applications is supposed to make it stronger - but what does it do here? Is it necessary because of the soldering you're using?

Now I really want to try soldering some PE parts...heheh.

Anealing, your Lycraliness, softens the metal. Enabling it to become more maleable. (Bend more easily without snapping after 2 or 3 bends back and forth). As for the armor world. A good example would be say the front fender of a tank. Aneal the thing then you can model damage a lot more finely and lovelier.

...Guy

Luftwoller wrote:

Anealing, your Lycraliness, softens the metal. Enabling it to become more maleable. (Bend more easily without snapping after 2 or 3 bends back and forth). As for the armor world. A good example would be say the front fender of a tank. Aneal the thing then you can model damage a lot more finely and lovelier. ...Guy

brass tends to work harden very badly. When it does this it will crack or just split in tight corners with a minimum radius. Annealing brass has been a standard issue with target shooters for years, but their needs are somewhat different than ours are. A dead soft piece of brass is of no use in a rifle, bit it's the opposite harm to us. 350 to 400 degrees seems to be the ideal temp for annealing brass, and then let it "air cool." Where as in a rifle round you'd cool the brass in ice water. Temp sticks are cheap, and can be had in several different temperature levels. If the brass gets too warm it will cause it tobe usless

gary

Dupes,

As the others have pointed out, the purpose of annealing is to make it easier to bend/shape/curve brass or metal parts. It takes the "springiness" out of them and, with brass in particular, can turn it as soft as butter. You don't want to anneal every piece as many need the rigidity or stiffness quality retained to produce a sharp bend or to support weight for example. It's perfectly suited for taking a flat piece and producing a curved shape such as a muffler guard, mudflaps/fenders, or cylinder/tube shape as often called for in many sets.

When I anneal I don't get too fancy...I just have a pair of locking tweezers to hold the part and then use the gas burner on the kitchen stove to heat it until it glows red (only takes a few seconds if that), then allow it to air cool and finally bend it to shape. The air cooling literally only takes the amount of time for me to walk from the kitchen back to the workbench.

wbill76 wrote:

Specter wrote: Did you have to do anything special to get the gun to fit in the hull or did everything just go together? The gun looks great by the way. Specter, The design of the base by LR is an exact copy of the Tamiya parts so no modification was required for it to fit. The only thing that is different is the diamater of the post, it's smaller on the LR part, so it doesn't fit into the polycap tightly and has a bit of wiggle room. That means it will have to be glued into a fixed position once it's painted instead of being able to rotate. Otherwise it was a smooth drop-fit. I actually thought I might have to do more work with it originally but the LR design is so close to the Tamiya parts, I believe they must have used the same plans/molds and just upgraded some of the details to achieve a better standard.

That's good that there wasn't any major work needed. Looking forwad to seeing it all done

Bish wrote:

wbill76 I am thinking of getting the LR gun for my Modelwagen. I also have an Eduard PE set for it, but its the older one that doesn't have a gun shield. As i don't fancy forking out for another Eduard set, do you think the LR shield could be altered in any way to fit.

The LR shields can be used with the Mobelwagen but it will take some delicate/advanced PE work to make it happen since all the hinge points are designed to be workable using 0.3mm lengths of brass and two-part hinges, so be prepared for that. It's possible to assemble it without soldering to get the main shield together as there are bracing parts that can help with that but it will be delicate in the end. Due to the way the hinges are designed, you can assemble it in the fully open/locked position that would be suitable for the Mobelwagen mount/  

wbill76 wrote:

Bish wrote: wbill76 I am thinking of getting the LR gun for my Modelwagen. I also have an Eduard PE set for it, but its the older one that doesn't have a gun shield. As i don't fancy forking out for another Eduard set, do you think the LR shield could be altered in any way to fit. The LR shields can be used with the Mobelwagen but it will take some delicate/advanced PE work to make it happen since all the hinge points are designed to be workable using 0.3mm lengths of brass and two-part hinges, so be prepared for that. It's possible to assemble it without soldering to get the main shield together as there are bracing parts that can help with that but it will be delicate in the end. Due to the way the hinges are designed, you can assemble it in the fully open/locked position that would be suitable for the Mobelwagen mount/

I would suggest getting the Griffon Models workable hinge and grab bar jig set since it contains 2 jigs with all the hole set for 0.2 through 0.8 mm wires for making pretty good workable hinges and the realistic grab bars can be made any length you want as well.

This weekend's update is small, relatively speaking, due to the fact that it coincided with my 12th wedding anniversary and, while my wife is very understanding and supportive of the hobby, that only goes so far!

Due to poor weather yesterday I wasn't able to get any painting done until today. While I did get a head-start on the track assembly yesterday, the progress there isn't sufficient enough yet to justify any photos, so this update will be light on pics as well. All paints referenced on Testor's Model Master Enamels.

The day's efforts meant spending a lot of time with the airbrush out in the garage and the first step was to lay down a primer coat of Italian Dark Brown. This helps insure all the bare plastic areas are covered and provides a solid foundation for the base coat. Once that was on and dried, I applied the base coat using a personalized mix of 80/20 Dunkelgelb/Light Gray. This is applied in multiple very thin passes, slowly building it up over the Dark Brown so as to avoid a single heavy wet coat.

Once that was on and dried, I started in with the camo pattern. I used Khaki for the olivegrun stripes first to set the framework of the pattern then applied the red-brown alternating stripes using a 50/50 mix of Leather/Military Brown. I then went back over the pattern using the previous 80/20 dunkelgelb mix to correct over-spray and fine tune the pattern. The final step was to hold the airbrush about 1-2 feet away from the model and then spray a very light overall mist coat of the same dunkelgelb mix to tie everything in together. The gun is still not attached to the vehicle base to allow for the later detailing to be accomplished.

At the same time as all that was going on, I also airbrushed the road wheels. All of the wheels were mounted on wooden toothpicks using small blobs of blue-tack poster putty to keep them in place. The rubber rim portions were sprayed with Flat Black and then a circle template, with the correct diameter holes masked off, used to spray the dunkelgelb hubs.

During the week I'll likely keep plugging away at the tracks and, once they're done, install the road wheels and go from there.

 Hello wbill76,

 The camo looks awesome. Thanks for sharing your "Secret Ingredients" for the paint mixes. I've gotta find one of those circle templates. It sure looks like it would make painting the roadwheels a lot easier. Top notch work with the paint! Thank your better half for being so understanding! Wishing you and yours the best, Happy Anniversary!

 Best Regards,

Fantastic paint job Bill. You mentioned in an earlier post, Youd paint it at the weekend if the weather was good!!! Arnt you from Texas? And isnt the weather always good there

...Guy

P.s Happy Anniversary

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Wow, Bill---that camo pattern is the bee's knees...you pulled it off nicely...this was the most commonly seen camo pattern seen on these "vans" according to my refs---that and just plain dark yellow...that AM barrel really sets the gun off IMO...what unit markings?

Thanks MR,  you're right about the patterns. It seems that they either were kept in plain dunkelgelb or given the "camo net" style pattern by the crews. There are many photos of surrendered Mobelwagens at war's end that show them still in the plain DG scheme but I thought variety was better in this case. As far as unit markings, all the Tamiya kit supplied were two crosses for the superstructure sides. This seems to have been a common practice too since the Mobelwagen's were crewed by Luftwaffe troops and attached to the various units they served with.

Mobious wrote:

The camo looks awesome. Thanks for sharing your "Secret Ingredients" for the paint mixes. I've gotta find one of those circle templates. It sure looks like it would make painting the roadwheels a lot easier. Top notch work with the paint! Thank your better half for being so understanding! Wishing you and yours the best, Happy Anniversary!

Appreciate the comments and my pleasure on sharing the paint mixes, it's something that I've started using more frequently due to the effects that weathering can have in terms of altering colors. Mixing up my own shades provides a lot more control over the end result even if it does require a bit more effort. I can wholeheartedly recommend the circle template approach, especially for a vehicle like this one where there were 36 wheel halves to paint! Thanks as well for the congrats on the anniversary!

Luftwoller wrote:

Fantastic paint job Bill. You mentioned in an earlier post, Youd paint it at the weekend if the weather was good!!! Arnt you from Texas? And isnt the weather always good there ...Guy P.s Happy Anniversary

Guy, there's a saying in Texas that "if you don't like the weather, just wait a minute!". I live in El Paso which is way out on the western edge (literally!) and is a desert climate so most of the time the weather can be relied upon to cooperate. From late July through to September though is our so-called "monsoon" season where we get the majority of our annual rainfall. Saturday was one of those days and we had heavy thunderstorms and even some localized flooding to contend with. Sunday on the other hand was a very nice day...see back to my first sentence!

Agentg,

Thanks for the comments as well! My brother is an ironworker/welder in Vegas, so definitely know what you're talking about in regards to the weather there.

Sweet paint job! it's a realy cool patern. That weel masker thing where did you get it?

stick man wrote:

Sweet paint job! it's a realy cool patern. That weel masker thing where did you get it?

It's a drafting template that I bought online from a general supply store, don't have the link right off hand but can add it later this evening when I'm home. It was around $10 with shipping IIRC.

Mansteins revenge wrote:

From what I've read, these 37mm babies were pretty effective in knocking down low-flying a/c---more effective than the 20mm, which was an exdcellent gun in its own right...more American aces were downed by German flak than by other German pilots!!!...

It was a very effective AA gun to be sure...Allied & Axis #20 shows a "zwilling" mount that had two of them paired together for maximum firepower. IIRC the 3.7cm Flak was able to reach out to altitudes of 10,000 ft with lethal results.  

Thanks Panther!

Bish,

I have an extra LR barrel on hand and no kit with which to pair it up due to the fact that I'd purchased mine separately before the LR Flak kit was released. Drop me a PM with your shipping details and it's all yours!

Mikeym_us wrote:

Bill where are you going to get the ammo for the Flak43? From the looks of the LR kit it appears the ammo wasn't included.

Mikey, you're right, the LR kit only includes spent brass rounds for the basket. Fortunately the Tamiya kit includes 3 magazine clips which will serve nicely in that department (even though the instructions have incorrect painting colors).

wbill76 wrote:

Bish, I have an extra LR barrel on hand and no kit with which to pair it up due to the fact that I'd purchased mine separately before the LR Flak kit was released. Drop me a PM with your shipping details and it's all yours!

Well, what can i say, thanks very mutch for the offer. But when i said gun i meant the full flak kit that you got. I do have an Ostwind kit but i already have an Aber barrel for that. But thanks again, thats very genorous offer.

Thanks WN!

Bish,

No problem at all, I'll hang onto it in the spares box for possible future use.

Shoot Bill, if that barrel is really taking up too much space I'm sure I could find a good use for it...

Wouldn't want you to run out of room in your spares box.

Paint looks great, Bill! I can't wait to see you rust it, chip it, Oil Dot it, filter, wash and uber-weather it now....

Another one of my favorite kits--coming along very nicely!

Mikeym_us wrote:

Bill where are you going to get the ammo for the Flak43? From the looks of the LR kit it appears the ammo wasn't included.

Bill,

I just saw a 37mm ammo trailer for sale on Ebay awhile ago. It'd look right with that kit.

gary

Dupes,

All yours, just pm or email me with your details.

the doog wrote:

Paint looks great, Bill! I can't wait to see you rust it, chip it, Oil Dot it, filter, wash and uber-weather it now.... Another one of my favorite kits--coming along very nicely!

Thanks doog, always love your sense of humor.

Squeakie, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if these towed ammo trailers or not as a routine practice. I can't recall seeing any in reference photos but then there aren't all that many out there in circulation of the Mobelwagen to begin with, so I wouldn't take that as definitive per se. Definitely sounds like something that could be used in a diorama setting though since the on-board ammo storage is somewhat limited to the side bins and I imagine some additional ammo carrier/provisioning would be necessary to keep it firing any length of time.  

wbill76 wrote:

Dupes, All yours, just pm or email me with your details.

Ahhh, you're the best Bill. I owe you one.

   Bill just catching up on this and that cammo came out great. What type of air brush do you use by the way?   

wbill76 wrote:

Dupes, All yours, just pm or email me with your details.  the doog wrote: Paint looks great, Bill! I can't wait to see you rust it, chip it, Oil Dot it, filter, wash and uber-weather it now.... Another one of my favorite kits--coming along very nicely! Thanks doog, always love your sense of humor. Squeakie, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if these towed ammo trailers or not as a routine practice. I can't recall seeing any in reference photos but then there aren't all that many out there in circulation of the Mobelwagen to begin with, so I wouldn't take that as definitive per se. Definitely sounds like something that could be used in a diorama setting though since the on-board ammo storage is somewhat limited to the side bins and I imagine some additional ammo carrier/provisioning would be necessary to keep it firing any length of time.

Just found out Lion Roar came out with ammo for the Flak43.

panzerguy wrote:

Bill just catching up on this and that cammo came out great. What type of air brush do you use by the way?

Thanks panzerguy, I use an Aztek A470 double-action brush hooked up to a 1/4hp hobby compressor with a regulator/moisture trap. I have the full range of interchangeable tips for the Aztek line and use the yellow tip for the primer coat and base coat and the gray tip for the fine line camo work. For high volume work I use the siphon feed and for the detail/small volume work, the gravity feed.

Mike,

Makes sense for LR to provide it...although as a separate item just means they're milking the marketing aspect to the fullest!

wbill76 wrote:

panzerguy wrote: Bill just catching up on this and that cammo came out great. What type of air brush do you use by the way?    Thanks panzerguy, I use an Aztek A470 double-action brush hooked up to a 1/4hp hobby compressor with a regulator/moisture trap. I have the full range of interchangeable tips for the Aztek line and use the yellow tip for the primer coat and base coat and the gray tip for the fine line camo work. For high volume work I use the siphon feed and for the detail/small volume work, the gravity feed. Mike, Makes sense for LR to provide it...although as a separate item just means they're milking the marketing aspect to the fullest!

yeah especially since it would be nice to see the PE Ammo tray that comes with it built up though a resin tray would be easier to mass produce. So you can say have two loaded trays in the ammo hopper and several others in the ready area with a few of the empty ones near the shell catcher.

wbill76 wrote:

Dupes, All yours, just pm or email me with your details.  the doog wrote: Paint looks great, Bill! I can't wait to see you rust it, chip it, Oil Dot it, filter, wash and uber-weather it now.... Another one of my favorite kits--coming along very nicely! Thanks doog, always love your sense of humor. Squeakie, now that you mention it, I'm not sure if these towed ammo trailers or not as a routine practice. I can't recall seeing any in reference photos but then there aren't all that many out there in circulation of the Mobelwagen to begin with, so I wouldn't take that as definitive per se. Definitely sounds like something that could be used in a diorama setting though since the on-board ammo storage is somewhat limited to the side bins and I imagine some additional ammo carrier/provisioning would be necessary to keep it firing any length of time.

I remember once seeing pics of tanks actually pulling fuel tank trailers behind them once, and there is a hook at the rear. I've also seen at least one photo of a STUG III being loaded from an ammo trailer being pulled by a half track. So who knows what is right.

gary

Gary,

Anything's possible and I'm not ruling it out 100%, just haven't seen any photos showing that or with trailers nearby for deployed units. Without going into the "prove the negative" quagmire, it's plausible but situations where AFVs towed trailers are not common for a variety of reasons. The Flakpanzer I for example often towed an ammo trailer because of the lack of any stowage space on such a small vehicle as did halftracks mounting Flaks like the Flak 38 or Flak 38 Vierling (very high rate of fire meant high ammo consumption). Very common for halftracks to tow trailers and they were included in the order of battle for panzer units as a routine thing, so that would be my guess as to how Mobelwagens were kept supplied with ammo, but it's only conjecture.

I got that Ostwind I ask you about the otherday. I bought the CMK version (I hope it's a good kit<g>), and it looks more like a conversion to a Tamayia Panzer IV with a completely different turret assembly. The parts for the hull are even marked Tamayia! With this in mind I have some questions to run by the masses:

* the gun is not anything to brag about, and was sorta wondering is I could kinda adapt the 37mm from another kit with an aftermarket barrel?

* What hull did the Germans use for these? (I guess I could figure this one out on my own if I were not so lazy)

* Did they Zimmert this things?

gary

squeakie wrote:

I got that Ostwind I ask you about the otherday. I bought the CMK version (I hope it's a good kit<g>), and it looks more like a conversion to a Tamayia Panzer IV with a completely different turret assembly. The parts for the hull are even marked Tamayia! With this in mind I have some questions to run by the masses: * the gun is not anything to brag about, and was sorta wondering is I could kinda adapt the 37mm from another kit with an aftermarket barrel? * What hull did the Germans use for these? (I guess I could figure this one out on my own if I were not so lazy) * Did they Zimmert this things? gary

Gary, the Ostwind mounted a Flak 43 in the turret, so it would depend I guess on how the CMK does this whether or not you could readily adapt a replacement. The only styrene kit available of the Flak 43 as a stand-alone item is the LR kit. The Germans used Pz IV hulls (usually Hs or Js) from vehicles that were returned for repair/refit from the front as opposed to custom-built hulls. If the hull had zimmerit, then the Ostwind also had zimmerit. Most pics I've seen show the zimmerit as present. Zimmerit would be on the hull only, not the turret. 

wbill76 wrote:

squeakie wrote: I got that Ostwind I ask you about the otherday. I bought the CMK version (I hope it's a good kit<g>), and it looks more like a conversion to a Tamayia Panzer IV with a completely different turret assembly. The parts for the hull are even marked Tamayia! With this in mind I have some questions to run by the masses: * the gun is not anything to brag about, and was sorta wondering is I could kinda adapt the 37mm from another kit with an aftermarket barrel? * What hull did the Germans use for these? (I guess I could figure this one out on my own if I were not so lazy) * Did they Zimmert this things? gary Gary, the Ostwind mounted a Flak 43 in the turret, so it would depend I guess on how the CMK does this whether or not you could readily adapt a replacement. The only styrene kit available of the Flak 43 as a stand-alone item is the LR kit. The Germans used Pz IV hulls (usually Hs or Js) from vehicles that were returned for repair/refit from the front as opposed to custom-built hulls. If the hull had zimmerit, then the Ostwind also had zimmerit. Most pics I've seen show the zimmerit as present. Zimmerit would be on the hull only, not the turret.

Thanks a bunch Bill for getting back with me on this. I got the kit for $20, and after looking at it awhile ago I decided that a photo etch set would be a nice addition (if there is one). I have two or three late Panzer IV track sets stashed somewhere in that mess in the front bedroom. There are a couple people that make replacement barrels, but from what I saw the moulding for the reciever just wasn't anything to write home about. A zimmerit coating would be nice, but with a sand blasted look like it was a rebuilt track. So I guess I'd best brush up on my soldering skills (never was anygood at it). Expect a zillion questions about that Lion Roar 37mm cannon!

    Anyway I'm in no real hurry as I'm about to start a Sheridan production line (three or four), and a couple mortar pits (started making sandbags last night as an experiment). I found this air drying clay at Hobby Lobby, and it seems to work very well, and I don't have to bake it.

gary

Bish wrote:

squeakie Not sure if it will help, but Eduard do a PE set for the Italeri Ostwind. Its number 35472 if thats any use.

Now I didn't know that! I was thinking I'd have to dig out two or three tank kits just to actually see what hull CMK used from Tamayia, but then again it's for an Italeri. Imagine it's a pretty close match though.

    I've decided to do the zimmerit the old way with blotches of it here and there along the base of the hull, and maybe a little bit ontop. I want a very used look on the hull. And I guess I'm going with the Lion Roar gun and Model Kasten tracks. I'm finding photos tobe about as easy to find as getting that warm feeling from my ex wife.

gary

Bish wrote:

My Ostwind is deep in my stash and i haven't had a look in ages, so i can't remeber what the gun is like. I was just going to use the kit, but i am now thinking about the LR gun. Though from what i gather it molded on the Tamiya piece so not sure how it will fit.

The CMK kit actually uses a Tamayia hull, and may well be a completely different animal. It looks like it's an "H" model, and is different than the two moblewagons I also have (back end of the hull on one and the whole top is different on the other so it maybe a "J"). Somewhere I have a "J", and need to dig it for a compairison.

gary

Normally I post updates on Sundays but since today was a day of working on the details and then the only thing left is the tracks, I figured I'd go ahead and post today.

The first area of attention were the road wheels, these were assembled from their separate halves and installed onto the vehicle and allowed to dry to provide a solid foundation. Next came the various tools and bits of equipment mounted on the hull. These were detailed individually, with the metal surfaces painted first with non-buffing metalizer Gunmetal and then lightly dry-brushed with Steel. Those with wood handles had them painted with my own custom mix of "wood" color followed by an application of burnt umber artist pastels. The handles on the wire cutters were painted with Italian Dark Brown to recreate the bakelite look since they aren't wood like the rest of the tools.  The spare wheels were also installed and the exhausts base coated with the same metalizer Gunmetal and then given a light wash of Rust for their finish.

I also created some light scuffing/scratching in the fighting compartment area where the crew would stand to operate the gun by alternating dry-brushing and stippling of some Burnt Umber. This was then toned down and blended back in with dry-brushing and stippling of some Dunkelgelb. Last but not least, the spare barrels were painted with Gunmetal metalizer and very lightly dry-brushed with Steel and fitted into their clamps.

Next in the detail department was the gun itself. The barrel, ammo feed tray, and the ejector tray were given the same treatment as the spare barrels. The gun sight was detailed with Aircraft Interior Black and the spent shell basket installed. I used the three Tamiya kit-supplied ammo clips and painted up two with yellow heads for HE rounds and one with red heads for incendiary shrapnel. The brass casings were painted with non-buffing metalizer Brass and the fuse caps painted with Steel. The tabs on the ammo clips on the real thing are meant to hook into each other to feed the gun but the Tamiya parts don't allow for that, so only 1 clip was loaded into the gun and the other 2 were set on the ready tray.

I've already started in on 1 of the MK track runs, got about a dozen links assembled before deciding to call it a day. Tomorrow will be a "day of tracks"!

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Wow...cool stuff.  What types of rounds did the different colors represent?

MR,

Thanks for the comments! Yellow-HE, Red-Incendiary Shrapnel, Blue-Shrapnel, Black-AP. Rounds that were tracers would have either a small blue or red band in the middle but I didn't go quite that far give the size of these to begin with. The rate of fire was supposed to be 250 rpm with a trained crew and the pattern of the rounds was supposed to alternate between the 8 round clips, so they'd be chewing through ammo pretty quick and staying busy keeping it fed. The color codes were supposed to aid in this and all the shells in the clip would be the same type.

 Hello wbill76,

 The Metalizer finish on the barrel looks fantasticular! The spent catch bin looks great also. Your work always amazes me. Thanks for pointing out the bakelite compound used on the cutter handles, Info like that comes in useful for future builds. Looking forward to "The Day of Tracks".

 Best Regards,

Mobious wrote:

Hello wbill76,  The Metalizer finish on the barrel looks fantasticular! The spent catch bin looks great also. Your work always amazes me. Thanks for pointing out the bakelite compound used on the cutter handles, Info like that comes in useful for future builds. Looking forward to "The Day of Tracks".  Best Regards,

Mobious, thanks for the comments! Testor's Metalizer line of lacquer-based paints are wonderful stuff, the Gunmetal in particular is one that I use frequently. The bakelite on the cutter handles is something that's often overlooked, many assume that they were just wooden handles like the rest of the tools. My understanding is that the standard practice was to use bakelite (early type of plastic) or resin-impregnated corrugated paper (a heavy-duty cardboard) as the two materials commonly used to serve as insulators for the handles in the event of cutting through electrified wiring/cables. The "Day of Tracks" is underway...going to be a day of patience too!

Looking great, Bill!

A totally off-topic comment here, but for me, that bright blue background makes your Dunklegelb look weird--it reflects off the paint somehow. I've noticed this with my own experiments with background colors. I've tried to use either white or a gray-blue with Dunklegelb.

Have you ever tried a more neutral background? 

the doog wrote:

A totally off-topic comment here, but for me, that bright blue background makes your Dunklegelb look weird--it reflects off the paint somehow. I've noticed this with my own experiments with background colors. I've tried to use either white or a gray-blue with Dunklegelb. Have you ever tried a more neutral background?

Doog,

If it looks wierd, all I can say is that it might be more to your monitor settings than anything else. When displayed on the camera and here on my screen, it's an accurate match. The fact that you describe the background as "bright" blue is an indicator of this, it's actually a light blue background that isn't bright at all, at least in the way I see the photos.  

the doog wrote:

Looking great, Bill! A totally off-topic comment here, but for me, that bright blue background makes your Dunklegelb look weird--it reflects off the paint somehow. I've noticed this with my own experiments with background colors. I've tried to use either white or a gray-blue with Dunklegelb. Have you ever tried a more neutral background?

Karl,

I think maybe you need to calibrate your monitor. Mine has been calibrated, and the color looks very close. It might have an ever so slight greenish tint on the base color (I mean very slightly). But on the otherhand I have the whites slightly darkened on purpose, so that's where the green might be fadeing thru on mine

gary

Hmmmm.........Well, everything else looks fine to me--I don't notice a problem with other posts or even with my own photos. And actually, the blue isn't really that "bright"--it's sort of a medium gray-blue.. I've found a very light gray-blue to be more complimentary....oh well...?

Maybe it's just my own personal bias creeping through? (guess I'll shut up now.....!)

wbill76 wrote:

No worries Doog, appreciate you taking the time to comment about the photo quality...you never know how things look to others on the 'net.

Very cool wbill!! I like the scuffing and scratches of the fighting compartment

Thanks Specter!

I managed to get one of the tracks built and installed today but it was slow going. I've figured out that there's a small problem with some of the pins in this set of MK links. Some of them are just slightly too large at the head end and need a little extra push to go all the way flush but it's not noticeable at first because they hit a little resistance and feel as if they are all the way in when in fact they are just a fraction of a mm short.

I didn't notice this on some of the first ones I assembled and they stayed together well enough until it came time to install them when of course they let go in multiple places once they had any sort of tension on them. This required some careful reassembly and then treating the whole track run with liquid glue as you would static indy links because the pins weren't strong enough to keep it all together on their own.

Fortunately I've picked up on the issue and how to solve it and the second run will not have this same problem. It does require careful inspection of each pin to insure it really is seated all the way in before moving on to the next link, so that slows things down a little. I've assembled many sets of MK links and this is the first time I've had this problem so I chalk it up to just a slightly off set. One track on, one to go!

wbill76 wrote:

Thanks Specter! I managed to get one of the tracks built and installed today but it was slow going. I've figured out that there's a small problem with some of the pins in this set of MK links. Some of them are just slightly too large at the head end and need a little extra push to go all the way flush but it's not noticeable at first because they hit a little resistance and feel as if they are all the way in when in fact they are just a fraction of a mm short. I didn't notice this on some of the first ones I assembled and they stayed together well enough until it came time to install them when of course they let go in multiple places once they had any sort of tension on them. This required some careful reassembly and then treating the whole track run with liquid glue as you would static indy links because the pins weren't strong enough to keep it all together on their own. Fortunately I've picked up on the issue and how to solve it and the second run will not have this same problem. It does require careful inspection of each pin to insure it really is seated all the way in before moving on to the next link, so that slows things down a little. I've assembled many sets of MK links and this is the first time I've had this problem so I chalk it up to just a slightly off set. One track on, one to go!

LOL should have gone with the Friul tracks they are more forgiving than the MK set and are a bit more accurate. Does the MK set have the hollowed out guide horns?

Mike,

Fruils and MKs are like Ford's and Chevy's...everyone has their preference for one reason or another. MK's have never let me down and this particular set has only a minor issue to contend with, not a show-stopper.

This particular set has the solid guide-horns since they are later war designs with the ice-cleat chevrons on the face. This style of track was available in both the open and closed guide-horn style but MK makes only the solid horn type. I opted deliberately for the solid horns.

As advertised in the last update, the tracks were the next step and this of course follows the usual pattern with MKs, using the provided jig and assembling the runs by installing the workable pins on either side.

While the MK instructions suggest 97 links per side, this is too short and I ended up using 99 links. Because I wasn't careful enough with the pins to insure they actually did seat all the way in, I had several weak pins resulting in the need to run liquid glue along the entire track run and treat it as if it were static indy links instead. I base painted the runs with Testors Model Master Non-buffing Gunmetal, then dry-brushed Steel to create a metallic look, and applied a thin wash of Raw Umber to finish the look before installation. I also used the spare MK links available for the front hull run and finished them in the same way except for using a wash of Rust in place of Raw Umber and dry brushing additional Burnt Umber for their finish.

With that out of the way, I applied a coat of Future by air brush and applied the decal markings. Instead of the Tamiya decals, I hunted in my spares bin and used some Cartograf markings left over from a previous DML build, the Tiger I Initial. Using the cover photo on Panzerwrecks 6 as an inspiration, I added a 3-digit vehicle number to go with the balkenkreuze. The decals were treated with Walther's Solvaset to snug them down to the hull and then a second sealing coat of Future applied. This was allowed to sit overnight before starting in on the weathering process.

The first step was the application of an overall wash of Raw Umber to all of the upper hull surfaces. I used a round 0 sable brush and worked carefully section by section, adjusting any excess as I went with clean thinner.

Then I applied a dot filter of Raw Sienna to add some earth tones to the weathering and some slight streaking for variation. This was followed by a pin wash of Burnt Umber to further pop out the details.

As a final step, I lightly dry-brushed the lightened Dunkelgelb mix used for the base coat to all the surfaces, blending and fading the camo in the process a bit more.

Next came a wet treatment of Mig Pigments Dark Mud, Europe Dust, and African Earth. The three were mixed together first as powders, then ordinary water added and the mixture applied by a large sable brush to the undersides and running gear. This was allowed to air dry over the course of about 1 hour to get to this stage. The pigments end up a slightly lighter color this way than if applied dry, which is why I mix several colors in together.

After it was dry, I proceeded to remove the excess pigment and adjust the finish. This is accomplished as a two-step process, the first is to use a set of stiff bristled brushes to remove as much of the excess as possible. I wear a dust mask while doing this as the very fine pigment particles go airborne very easily and aren't good for the nose/mouth/sinuses/lungs to be inhaled! Once all the excess is removed, the next step is to use a series of moistened q-tips to tone down and adjust the level of pigments.

Then, as a final step, I dry-brushed some Steel to bring back out the high-points on the track faces and everything was finished.

 Hello wbill76,

 A nice finish to a great WIP. Thanks for all the tips. The weathering looks amazing. That's how it's supposed to be done! The MK's look like a bit of work, but worth the extra effort. Gotta get some of the MM Metalizer's, they give the tracks an awesome finish.

 Thanks again for the WIP....

 Best Regards,

Bill that sure is something to look at. All aspects...subject, camo sceme, weathering.... just beautiful.

Question about Mig powders.  How different are they than finely ground chalk pastels? I realize you may have not used pastels and can't answer.  I am curious if there is some sort if binder, or whatever, in there that gives them a different adhering quality.

Mobious, thanks as always for the comments. The Testor's line of metalizers are great stuff!

wing_nut wrote:

Bill that sure is something to look at. All aspects...subject, camo sceme, weathering.... just beautiful. Question about Mig powders.  How different are they than finely ground chalk pastels? I realize you may have not used pastels and can't answer.  I am curious if there is some sort if binder, or whatever, in there that gives them a different adhering quality.

WN, thanks for commenting as well! I have (and continue to do so) used pastels but I prefer the artist type vs. the chalk type. Mig Pigments are just that, finely ground/milled pigment with no additive binders to them. They adhere reasonably well based on this fact alone if applied dry but are sensitive to handling. Before I apply the Migs, I apply a coat of Testors Lusterless Flat via spraycan to both insure a matte surface as well as achieve some "tooth" to the surface. Because I apply the pigment wet, the pigment serves as a "stain" due to the fine grain it has and can be 99% removed, but not 100%...once it dris, it has very good adherence quality (except for the excess which can be easily brushed away).

Mansteins revenge wrote:

Nice finish to a sweet build; I particularly like the weathering to the running gear...unusual to see a three-digit number on one of these--Very nice work...

MR, you're right, normally the markings are limited to just the balkenkreuze on the side, but once I saw the photos in Panzerwrecks 6, I thought it would add a little twist/uniqueness to the build. The vehicle in question has the 3-tone camo as well as a field-mod to allow the Flak 43 to engage ground targets directly without lowering the sides...maybe this influenced the addition of the numbers?

   Another fine piece from one of the master's. The camo is just great and since this is the pattern I'm going for on my B-Tiger I will be following your instructions to the letter. Thank for another great wip Bill.    

                       Steve 

Wow Bill, that looks just as sweet as they come fella. Fantastic work on the blog as well. Im sure theres dozens of us who have bookmarked this post for future reference.

Wingnut. Ive used both and can say from personal experience that pastels are great and give a huge variation in colours. They take a lot of sanding to get them as fine as Mig pig's. Also thier adherance to the model isnt as good as Mig's. They must put an addative of some sort in em. Ive used pastels with his pigment fixer and they work great. Dampen the area 1st with the fixer, add the pastel, voila. Make sure its where you wqant it cos once the fixer goes off...she aint budging.

...Guy

Panzerguy,

My pleasure and thanks for the comments.

Guy,

Thanks for looking as always. I'm not sure that Mig adds an additive, if they do they don't market that as a "plus" for it, something I would think they would highlight. You're right about the separate fixer Mig sells, once it's set, it's set for life!

Specter wrote:

Wbill, that is awsome That field mod on the pictured Mobelwagen is pretty smart. I do have two questions though. 1: I was re-reading on the scuffs and such and was wondering if the burnt umber you used was oil or enamal. 2: what exactly is stippling?

Specter,

Appreciate the comments! I used enamel Burnt Umber, Testor's provides this in their Model Master II line. Stippling is done using a short stabbing motion instead of normal brush strokes, the brush is cleaned of paint just like you would for dry-brushing but instead of brushing you stab the brush. Simple and effective but it's very tough on a brush, so I only use older/worn-out brushes for that sort of thing.

Bodge wrote:

Nice build but looks as if no one has set foot inside it accept maybe to polish it,  maybe think of at least a bit of wear and tear to take the toy like interior away, only a sugestion.Still a nice build though.

Thanks for the input Bodge, gave me a chuckle. In fairness, I haven't posted a up-close photo of the interior, but "polished" or "toy-like" it certainly isn't.

wbill76 wrote:

Mobious, thanks as always for the comments. The Testor's line of metalizers are great stuff!  wing_nut wrote: Bill that sure is something to look at. All aspects...subject, camo sceme, weathering.... just beautiful. Question about Mig powders.  How different are they than finely ground chalk pastels? I realize you may have not used pastels and can't answer.  I am curious if there is some sort if binder, or whatever, in there that gives them a different adhering quality. WN, thanks for commenting as well! I have (and continue to do so) used pastels but I prefer the artist type vs. the chalk type. Mig Pigments are just that, finely ground/milled pigment with no additive binders to them. They adhere reasonably well based on this fact alone if applied dry but are sensitive to handling. Before I apply the Migs, I apply a coat of Testors Lusterless Flat via spraycan to both insure a matte surface as well as achieve some "tooth" to the surface. Because I apply the pigment wet, the pigment serves as a "stain" due to the fine grain it has and can be 99% removed, but not 100%...once it dris, it has very good adherence quality (except for the excess which can be easily brushed away).  Mansteins revenge wrote: Nice finish to a sweet build; I particularly like the weathering to the running gear...unusual to see a three-digit number on one of these--Very nice work... MR, you're right, normally the markings are limited to just the balkenkreuze on the side, but once I saw the photos in Panzerwrecks 6, I thought it would add a little twist/uniqueness to the build. The vehicle in question has the 3-tone camo as well as a field-mod to allow the Flak 43 to engage ground targets directly without lowering the sides...maybe this influenced the addition of the numbers?

    Well Tex you've put another nice one in the books.

I'm going to bookmark and save this build so when I do mine

i'll have some inspiration.

....Tony the Mutt....

Bodge wrote:

Glad i made you laugh , everyone likes a bit of friendly banter. In my honest opinion though for what its worth i think vehicles that are portrayed as being in a war would at least have thierfair share of scrathes and scrapes, even on aclean build or new vehicle you would have one or two wouldnt you?

Bodge,

The depiction of scratching/chipping etc. is one that's certainly open for personal interpretation, application, and debate and I respect your opinion regarding that area of finishing. The realism vs. artistry debate isn't one I want to go into as there are plenty of threads out there to see both sides of that coin, it's a debate that never ends depending on your preferred style and approach. Heavy scratching and chipping is something that I choose not to do even at the same time that I appreciate the techniques and artistry that goes into producing it by others. I just choose not to because it doesn't fit in with my chosen style/approach in the balance between accuracy and artistry. A 1 mm long or wide scratch scales up to 35mm long or wide on the real deal (2mm is 70mm or almost 3 inches, 3mm is 105mm or ...you see what I mean) so it doesn't take long before you've left the realm of realistic representation and entered the purely artistic in my opinion. It's the same reason I don't model wood grain on tool handles for example even though I've seen some very cool effects done by various builders, it just doesn't scale out properly in my mind so I choose not to do it. That's the beauty of our hobby, plenty of room for both points of view.

What I do choose to model is paint wear/fading, dirt, etc. to varying degrees as you can see clearly on the lower hull and the inside of the fighting compartment on this particular project. It's not a factory-new/clean vehicle but neither is it on its last legs and ready to keel over in the junkyard. Every area on this model is weathered to one degree or another through the use of washes, dry brushing, pigments, or combination. Go back and look at the first photo I posted when the camo scheme had been applied as a "factory fresh" example and compare it to the last ones and you'll see the progression, it's there even if it's not the "in your face" WOW level of scratching and weathering that others choose. I don't knock the heavily weathered "it's been in a war!" approach, on the contrary I can appreciate it for what it is even if I personally choose not to replicate it with my own work.

MR,

I gave it some serious thought but had already committed to the AA layout for the superstructure panels and it didn't seem quite right...so I left it alone. Still, it would be a cool thing for someone else to attempt.

Tony,

Appreciate the kind words, thanks!

wbill76 wrote:

Not too much slack in that track.

Love the build

wbill  Another beautiful build.  Your attention to detail is awsome.  But what tops that is you weathering.  It just makes your builds simply a work of art.

Keep up the great work.

ps1scw,

Thanks for the comments. Have to agree with you on the track tension, definitely a prime example of a properly tensioned idler! That's the funny thing about the Pz III/IV family, you can find examples of track sag that range from taut as in that pic to sagging so much (on an operational vehicle as opposed to one that's knocked out) you wonder how on earth they don't throw it everytime it gets in gear. Like these for example:

Moose, thanks for the kind words and encouragement!  

Thanks detailfreak for the comments.

It's true the Pz III and Pz IV had different designs for their track tensioning systems (Pz III used a screw type adjuster while the Pz IV used a capped swing arm type) and throughout the Pz III production span things changed in relation to the position of the return rollers and sprocket/idler design. I put these two up simply because I had the Trojca "Pz III At War" book to hand, but you can find similar examples of track sag on Pz IVs too, all depends on when/where you're looking at things. The choice of all-steel, and often ungreased, tracks usually meant the track runs had a relatively short life span, especially when compared to those of Allied vehicles like the Sherman.  

Bodge wrote:

I get your point entirely. I used to do clean builds and its thanks to the likes of Mig  and Mirko Bayerl that i changed my style.Now when i do a build it doesnt seem finnished until its had a bit of abuse. Have you tried the  style i do ,once you get it right it is very addictive.As they say dont knock it till youve tried it.Go on give it a go sometime

I always find it a bit ironic that those who practice heavy weathering tend to think that those who don't do the same either a) are afraid to try something new or b) haven't "drunk the Koolaid" yet and gotten onboard with the latest fad/style but should. As a point of fact, I've tried it and been succesful at producing it depending on how you look at it but didn't like the end result sitting on my shelf (although some techniques have been incorporated into other approaches based on the experimentation) and chose a different path. I have adapted and evolved techniques and approaches over time to different degrees, but the chipping and scratching angle just isn't for me. I belong to a different school of thought in that regard and am not interested in being a convert...unless of course it comes with some nice perks like free model kits for life or the guarantee of an eternity hereafter surrounded by styrene.

wbill76 wrote:

Bodge wrote: I get your point entirely. I used to do clean builds and its thanks to the likes of Mig  and Mirko Bayerl that i changed my style.Now when i do a build it doesnt seem finnished until its had a bit of abuse. Have you tried the  style i do ,once you get it right it is very addictive.As they say dont knock it till youve tried it.Go on give it a go sometime I always find it a bit ironic that those who practice heavy weathering tend to think that those who don't do the same either a) are afraid to try something new or b) haven't "drunk the Koolaid" yet and gotten onboard with the latest fad/style but should. As a point of fact, I've tried it and been succesful at producing it depending on how you look at it but didn't like the end result sitting on my shelf (although some techniques have been incorporated into other approaches based on the experimentation) and chose a different path. I have adapted and evolved techniques and approaches over time to different degrees, but the chipping and scratching angle just isn't for me. I belong to a different school of thought in that regard and am not interested in being a convert...unless of course it comes with some nice perks like free model kits for life or the guarantee of an eternity hereafter surrounded by styrene.

Panther F wrote:

Hey Bill, I like the looks of the running gear (heck I like it all) but just how much water is added to the mixture of piments?  I mean, is it soupy, muddy, what consistency would it be called?

Jeff, that's a good question and one that's hard to answer exactly...but it's more a soupy level of water vs. muddy...the idea is to have enough pigment (or less water) that it can be applied/spread easily without the surface tension of the water becoming an issue but without being a thick/pasty application as that uses up a lot of pigment for no appreciable gain since the excess is going to be removed anyway. I use an old prescription bottle cap as my mixing bowl and generally add water up to the inner lip, so I'm talking just a couple of ounces of water at most. HTH.

WOW! nice job I realy like the dirt around the running gear. 

Nice finish, Bill.

As always, I dig your track/suspension mig-weathering technique. Thanks for the interior shot - needed that. Really like how the ammo came out...looks great in the belt.

Another winner!

Well, I'm back! ----damned re-formatting of this computer! 

Bill, it's certainly a nice build; nice PE work, and its got your identifiable style, etc--but this model just cries out for figures--I probably asked you this before, but what's your take on doing/adding figures?

Also, could you indulge me and photograph a few shots against a white background? I really want to see if it's my cimputer screen or what that makes the paint look a funny shade?

the doog wrote:

Well, I'm back! ----damned re-formatting of this computer!  Bill, it's certainly a nice build; nice PE work, and its got your identifiable style, etc--but this model just cries out for figures--I probably asked you this before, but what's your take on doing/adding figures? Also, could you indulge me and photograph a few shots against a white background? I really want to see if it's my cimputer screen or what that makes the paint look a funny shade?

Wondered where you disappeared to for a while doog, glad you're back! Yes, you've asked before about figures and my answer is still the same! Figures aren't my thing, just don't have the interest to devote to the time, effort, cost, etc. involved in adding them to a build.

Let me see what I can do about photos on a white background...since I shoot all my photos on manual settings with the Canon SLR, I'll have to recalibrate the white balance and some other things in order to shoot with a different background and have it be an "apples to apples" comparison on the colors you're seeing with the current setup.

wbill76 wrote:

the doog wrote: Well, I'm back! ----damned re-formatting of this computer!  Bill, it's certainly a nice build; nice PE work, and its got your identifiable style, etc--but this model just cries out for figures--I probably asked you this before, but what's your take on doing/adding figures? Also, could you indulge me and photograph a few shots against a white background? I really want to see if it's my cimputer screen or what that makes the paint look a funny shade? Wondered where you disappeared to for a while doog, glad you're back! Yes, you've asked before about figures and my answer is still the same! Figures aren't my thing, just don't have the interest to devote to the time, effort, cost, etc. involved in adding them to a build. Let me see what I can do about photos on a white background...since I shoot all my photos on manual settings with the Canon SLR, I'll have to recalibrate the white balance and some other things in order to shoot with a different background and have it be an "apples to apples" comparison on the colors you're seeing with the current setup.

Another excellent build Bill, congrats.

Terry.

Bish wrote:

Been a real pleasure to watch this build. Has deffinatly given me a few pointers for when i get round to mine and will deffinatly be getting the LR gun, which i wouldn't have even heard of if it wasn't for your thread.

Thanks Bish, glad to be of service! Can't tell you how many things like that I too have picked up along the way from seeing others use them on their projects...like Biffa's use of Griffon clamps for example.

Terry, good to hear from you as always, thanks!

Bill

I watched as you took us through and what is great when you get to the end....I don't have to go to the museum to see this kind of work.

Nice...as usual

Rounds Complete!!

Doog,

Sorry for not posting this up sooner, but it took longer than I thought to get time to play around with this and get the settings right on the camera.

Here it is with the white background:

And with the blue:

wbill76 wrote:

Doog, Sorry for not posting this up sooner, but it took longer than I thought to get time to play around with this and get the settings right on the camera. Here it is with the white background: And with the blue: Thanks Bill! Hmm? Veeeeddy interesting! On the white background,--to me--the colors seem darker--which is totally the opposite of what I had expected. However, the way my eyes perceive it, it seems "truer" to color for some reason. Maybe I'm just used to my own pictures? On the blue background, the colors seem "warmer", or "brighter"; the blue pics seem "prettier", but for some reason want to confuse my eyes...--did you use a different lighting in either? Or are they both the identical lighting/flash? I'm at a loss at the results! Can you notice a noticeable/same difference on your monitor?

Doog,

I used the exact same lighting for both shots. The only difference is that I recalibrated the white balance for the white background vs. the blue, but even that didn't make an appreciable difference. I didn't do any editing or adjustment in Photoshop or other software. I don't use a flash, just positionable lighting.

On my monitor the white background picture is indeed darker, which is one of the reasons I don't use the white background, even for the tri-tone scheme. The blue background is actually more representative of what the actual model looks like while the white background shows everything darker and would require editing to get it back to a "representative" state. The only thing the white background shows better, ironically, is the weathering on the decals/markings...but then I expect that because they are predominantly white and the camera will "see" that clearer with a white overall background.  It's a small trade-off but one I normally accept as it's very small in the grand scheme of things.  

One of the other reasons I don't use the white background is that the camera picks up the detail better, IMHO, with the blue background. Notice, for instance, the detail level on the gun muzzle flash in the blue vs. the white. I can't really explain why, but my camera prefers the blue background and produces better photos as a result. This is true whether the photo is a WIP or a finished one.

I will say that at first-glance, the white background does produce a more "truer" impression to the eye...but when I placed the model on my desk and compared it to what was on the monitor, it wasn't as "real" vs. the blue if that makes any sense.

 Hello wbill76,

 Been following the discussion of backdrop colors. (WARNING!)These are statements from some one who is not a  photo expert, but has had similar problems (and still does) with white backgrounds. the only way to compensate for the additional reflected light from the white background was to set the F-stop for more exposure. Problem with this is the pic can become harsh (over exposed) and a tripod is absolutely required. If the camera is set to auto or in aperature it will pick up on the "extra" reflected light and reduce the F-stop for less light resulting in a darker pic as compared to the blue background. The blue background is actually absorbing some of the colors from the light spectrum where as white reflects the entire spectrum.  Can only guess that this is what is happening because like that which was stated earlier these are statements made from a person who has no photoghraphic background what so ever! Just a shot in the dark

 OBTW, that is a stunning work wbill76, regardless of the background color.

 Best Regards,

Mobious, that is some amazingly astute information! Thanks for posting it!

Bill, yeah, that's so weird--but now I think I understand it, thanks to Mobious.  I have had the same result with my pics--note the same pattern here in this photo of my KT--taken under similar conditions, if not exactly at the same time...

[/img] 

Hmm...now I'm wondering what is the way to go...

Thanks for the impromptu experiment! 

 Hello wbill76,

 Will be picking up blue background material for next pics. Thanks for bringing this up doog.

 Best Regards,

Mobius,

I shoot in full manual mode with my SLR with the exception of it using the auto-focus points since I work with the macro lens almost exclusively and always work to center and get multiple points of focus to insure an all-around good depth of field. You're right about manually setting the F-stop for longer exposures and the results that can produce, some photographers do that deliberately to produce just those sorts of stunning effects. I use the light meter settings and capability of the macro lens to sense how long to keep the shutter open based on the focus points and distance/light available unless I tell it differently. When these photos were taken, the amount of time and F-stop were roughly the same in terms of exposure and you can see the results.

Doog,

Glad it was helpful for you. I've been using a blue background for a long time now and found it was the best with a wide variety of cameras from the point-and-shoot to the SLR I use now...especially since online, the photo is the model. At one point in time I even experimented with a blue foreground and white background and vice versa, but that produced some rather, shall we say, "unusual" results.