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Revell 1:96 Constitution and United States

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  • Member since
    December 2003
  • From: 37deg 40.13' N 95deg 29.10'W
Posted by scottrc on Monday, February 26, 2007 9:09 AM

I have a question for those of you who have built the United States, for I never have had this kit.  I know from building a few of the Constitution kits, that the stern galley transome piece can be a bear of a fit.  I have either had this part warped, too small, or both which always required some rebending, breaking, swearing, and refabricating on this part to get it to fit without too much filling and sanding. 

So I was wondering if the stern piece for the double galley has the same fit issues, or are these issues compounded?

Scott 

  • Member since
    August 2003
  • From: Camp Leatherneck, Afghanistan
Posted by bilbirk on Monday, February 26, 2007 10:54 AM
 Grem56 wrote:

Don't be put off by the comments about the United States Bilbirk. I am building the Constitution as I write this e-mail and am thoroughly enjoying it !

Julian

I'm not put off, but things here seem a little to technical. I glad you are having a good time building as that is what we are supposed to or so I thought.My 2 cents [2c]
  • Member since
    February 2006
Posted by Grymm on Monday, February 26, 2007 11:30 AM

You'll have to excuse JTilley and some of the other guys.  They are authorities on the subject on this forum.  I love reading their discussions and learn a lot from them.  They are also incredible modellers.

Me?  I'm just your average SOOB (straight out of box) and I do little kitbashing or retooling of kits.  I just don't have the patience or the time.  I'm building the Constitution and have another one waiting in the wings (I have two young boys to please).  I also just received the Revell United States.  Historical accuracy aside, I will build the kit with the same zeal I build all my kits.  It's just fun to do.  The ship will be prominently displayed in the bonus room once complete....a long time from now, and draw lots of questions from those who are not authorities on the subject of period sailing vessels (I live in an Army town...I don't build tanks for that reason alone). 

The Constitution, or the United States, are not difficult kits.  Just time consuming, with a few moments of technicality.  The instructions are nicely written and the rigging instructions, in my opinion, are the best you'll find.  I was surprised to find that the instructions for rigging the United States included rigging for with and without sails, including rigging sheets and clews without sails.  I've never seen this before with even vintage Constitution kits, which is what I build.  The newer versions have too much flash and warping.

Get the kit.  There's tons of reference material out there.  Build it and have fun.  That's what the hobby is really all about.

Grymm

  • Member since
    February 2006
  • From: The green shires of England
Posted by GeorgeW on Monday, February 26, 2007 11:36 AM

I don't think I had much trouble in fitting the stern gallery and I'm sure I would have remembered had I experienced the problems scottrc  refers to.

I did that model (as far as it went)  quite a few years ago but I still remember the trauma of fitting the Heller Victory stern gallery (nothing to do with warped parts) even after some twentyfive years! so I guess the stern went on ok.

John Tilley has made many references to the deterioration in quality of recent re-issues something I noticed with my second Heller build of Victory. less distinct mouldings and inferior quality plastic - these manufacturers don't do us any favours.

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Monday, February 26, 2007 4:46 PM
 GeorgeW wrote:

I don't think I had much trouble in fitting the stern gallery and I'm sure I would have remembered had I experienced the problems scottrc  refers to.

I did that model (as far as it went)  quite a few years ago but I still remember the trauma of fitting the Heller Victory stern gallery (nothing to do with warped parts) even after some twentyfive years! so I guess the stern went on ok.

John Tilley has made many references to the deterioration in quality of recent re-issues something I noticed with my second Heller build of Victory. less distinct mouldings and inferior quality plastic - these manufacturers don't do us any favours.

 

I had to use some plastic strips to avoid the apperance that one could look straight down between the taff rail and the back end of the poop deck into Capt. Hardy's cabin.    

 

  • Member since
    April 2004
Posted by Chuck Fan on Monday, February 26, 2007 4:54 PM
 schoonerbumm wrote:

Relative to Revell's United States stern configuration, it most assuredly did not look that way. The kit designers obviously knew nothing about ship structures.  Ignoring aestethics, the staggered stern windows would have been a nightmare to frame: the stern timbers need to run between the windows all the way to the rail. The framing for the poop rails is not consistent with the ship's timbers either. Also the flat deck may be passable for the gun and spar decks, but on the poop, it really needs camber.

 

Hmmm, it seems to me that if the United States is framed like the Constitution, then the staggered upper tier window would be above where the taff rail on the constitution would have been, and thus it would be built the top of the stern timbers in stead of amongst the stern timbers.    It could well be a light structure not connected to the main structure of the stern. 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Monterey Bay, CA
Posted by schoonerbumm on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 1:28 AM

Technically, a lightweight upper structure would be feasible and were actually typical on 19th century ships, the American Charles W. Morgan for instance was built flush decked, then had deckhouses added, fore and aft, around mid century.

But I doubt that they would be used on a man of war in the late 18th century, especially a Commodore's vessel. Social status was simply too important. It would be difficult for a Commodore or Captain to accept the indignity of living in a shack on deck. The symbols of authority and rank probably would have overruled technical practicality. For instance, when the Royal Navy's 20 gun ships were elevated to ‘Post Captain' status during the middle of the 18th century, beakhead bulkheads and quarter galleries were installed, big ship features on little ships, but symbolic of post rank. These features were regarded as socially necessary, even though they degraded the sailing qualities of what were already mediocre ships.

It's hard for to comprehend such social anachronisms, but they persisted into the 20th century. For instance, up through World War II British destroyers still housed the officers, aft, and non-coms, forward, per Naval tradition, even though they had to reverse their stations on ship to get to their duty posts! It's hard to say how many sailors and officers were washed overboard in storms or how battle efficiency suffered from the resultant delay in ‘beating to quarters' in honor of this tradition.

My belief is that the aft end of the United States would have resembled the stern of a 64 or 74 gun ship (vessels unavailable to the fledgling US Navy), befitting the status of a Commodore.

Of course we may never know. Until primary evidence comes to light we are stuck with conjecture.

Alan

"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." Benjamin Franklin

jpk
  • Member since
    August 2006
Posted by jpk on Sunday, March 4, 2007 1:46 PM

I have both the Revell Constitution and United States, 1/96th, and while the Revell offering of the United States may not be exactly correct, there's not much to prove they are far off the mark either. Certainly it is well known that the three 44 gun frigates were built to the same plans, ergo the basic model of the US should be for the most part correct. At least as far as the research done by Revell back in the early 60's could be. I know much material has surfaced in the last 40 years since the Revell Constitution was first produced regarding her appearance during the 1812 war but the kit is still pretty accurate considering how closely it resembles the Bluejacket wooden kit which has had the benefit of the later research.

True, not much if anything has surfaced regarding the US's appearance at various times but one thing is sure, she did have a roundhouse, poopdeck, whatever, at some time/s during her career. It has been also noted that her handling was somewhat sluggish compared to her sisters and that she was slower as well due to the added weight and perhaps to a different mizzen sail rigging. Beyond that it is a matter of conjecture as to what form her addition took. While I think Revell's stern galleries are probably at best very decoratively sparce as compared to the more well documented Constitution's, using the parts provided one could conjure up their own design and it could be just as valid as Revell's, maybe more so.

I'm certainly not a naval architect or a knowlegeable student of ship construction in the late 17 and early 18th centuries but the Revell rendition of the stern quarters at the very least gives someone with a bit of knowlege, imagination and scratchbuilding skills a basis to create their own version of the United States.  

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Portsmouth, RI
Posted by searat12 on Monday, March 26, 2007 2:19 PM
The roundhouse and poop were also common in large French frigates, so it was not as unusual as a lot of people think.  As for the sailing qualities, the real problem with 'United States' happened as she was launched, which apparently wrenched the keel out of shape and the frigate NEVER sailed well as a result!  The 'President' was considered the best of the class, and there are reports of Bainbridge of the 'Constitution' attempting to bribe the captain of the 'President' to exchange commands with him (unsuccessfully!)....
  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by USS UNITED STATES on Sunday, October 18, 2009 12:34 AM

The Poop Deck on the USS UNITED STATES indeed did exist; even up to 1843, when it was noted in the Journal of USMC Cpl. Edward W. Taylor, when, on the 21st of February 1843, the body of Ship's Steward William B. Bradley laid in state through the celebration of George Washington's Birthday under the poop deck, until it could be buried.

In another rendition the Poop was quite lofty. This would fit accommodation for John Barry, first commanding officer of the USS UNITED STATES and of the United States Navy. It was he who wanted the Poop Deck. Barry stood a good 6 feet tall. I'm sure the structure was high enough to keep the Commodore from klunking his head on the beams under the deck.

Another mention from an eye witness claimed the deck was large enough to accommodate two quadrills of dancers.

The newer Revelle 1:150 scale model of the so called USS UNITED STATES has no poop deck. This is a false rendition of the USS UNITED STATES. I wouldn't waste the money on this false rendition. It appears that Revelle wished to sacrifice the structure to save production costs. It is a sham. To knowingly and willfully omit the structure is false representation and a lie to the edicational value to the public. Without the structure it could be the PRESIDENT or the CONSTITUTION, but definitely NOT the USS UNITED STATES.

USS UNITED STATES Foundation

Edward C. Zimmerman, Jr.

USSUNITEDSTATES@Yahoo.com

  • Member since
    December 2006
  • From: Jerome, Idaho, U.S.A.
Posted by crackers on Sunday, October 18, 2009 1:58 AM

  I have an original Revelle CONSTITUTION kit that has been on a shelf of my hobby room gathering dust. It is one of the future "to do" projects waiting its turn. As a guide to this kit, I also have the book from the Anatomy of the Ship series, "The 44- Gun Frigate, U.S S. CONSTITUTION," by Karl Heinz Marquardt. Since there is so much controversy as to the accuracy of a model to the origional vessel, how accurate is this book to the origional CONSTITUTION ?  Would anyone in the Forum care to comment ? I would be interested to have an opinion from Professor Tilley.  Thanks

                   Montani semper liberi !   Happy modeling to all and every one of you.

                                           Crackers     Angel [angel]

Anthony V. Santos

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Sunday, October 18, 2009 7:54 AM

We've discussed the Marquardt book quite a few times here in the Forum.  The most recent, I think, is the fourth post in this thread:  /forums/1/1192766/ShowPost.aspx#1192766 .  But we've dissected it pretty thoroughly over the past three years.  When I did a Forum search on "Marquardt," here's what I got:  /search/SearchResults.aspx?q=Marquardt&f=&u= .

I'll stick with what I said last time:  it's a good book that suffers from some pretty serious flaws.  If I had to give it an academic grade, it would be a B- or maybe a C+.  The drawings are excellent specimens of draftsmanship, the author did research in some sources I hadn't seen cited before, he overlooked some extremely important sources (the Martin book and the "Hull model"), and he made some mistakes that range from minor to serious.  (That reconstructed framing plan, which clearly bears no resemblance to how the actual ship is built, really is inexcusable.)

I guess I can recommend the book with serious reservations.  I say once again:  I hope the author and publisher will give us a revised and corrected edition that will be up to the standards of the Anatomy of the Ship series.  But if I were thinking about building a model of the Constitution based on the Revell 1/96 kit, and I had limited means (as I do) for acquiring research material, this book would go pretty far down the list.  The Arnot and Campbell plans, and the books by Tyrone Martin and Thomas Gillmer (with wonderful watercolor paintings by William Gilkerson), would be ahead of it.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    March 2004
Posted by USS UNITED STATES on Thursday, July 12, 2012 12:15 PM

  Not so with sailing attributes on USS UNITED STATES. There was a comment from Barry on her maiden voyage that she was "a little crank" and this was miss-inturpretated as poor sailing qualities. She was "crank because, and he continued to say, there was wood on the weather deck which made her roll more until it was brought below to finish off the interior of the ship. She was faster than sisters President and Constitution. Entries in Lt. John Mullowney's journal notes many times slackening sail for Constitution to catch up. Stephen Decatur Sr., father of the more famous son, made note that he never sailed with a ship he couldn't come up or leave with ease until he sailed with the UNITED STATES.

  This is one of those contrary to erronious and wide spread beliefs found throughout the internet and books. You will find that many or most of the sources are by word of mouth instead of approaching original documentation as I did. I couldn' tell you or post this if it were not true, other than going through the "wayback machine". In fact, and I believe it was during the 1830's, she handily defeated several ships in the US Navy including the new Raritan. An old entry from sister Constitution gives 13 1/2 knotts. Pulling away from her with ease proves she was faster than Constitution. Giving chase to a French prize and disappearing over the horizon from Constitution's view and having the French privateer captured gives testimony to her speed.

  The battle map I have between UNITED STATES and Macedonian shows UNITED STATES circled around for Macedonian to come into position before cutting loose with several broadsides brought the British frigate to. IF there was any problem with the USS UNITED STATES it certainly was not in her sailing attributes. AND, if we should be so fortunate as to build a full-scale seaworthy replica of this gallant frigate, then we shall see the truth.  Your most humble servant.

Ed. Zimmerman, Jr.; Founder, President, CEO; USS UNITED STATES Foundation  First Ship of the United States Navy since September 1978.   USSUNITEDSTATES@GMAIL.com

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