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Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

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  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 12:36 PM

Hi, I'm a newbie and just about to start building the Cutty Sark. I have done a lot of research and studied many photos but I am puzzled about one thing. All the spars or yards have little 'eyes' in the middle. There is no reference to them in the instructions and, looking at old photo's of the ship, I cannot figure out what they are for. They really look clumsy and I would like to remove them. Any one got any suggestions? 

I'm trying to atach a photo here.

[View:/themes/fsm/utility/:550:0]

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Monday, June 14, 2010 12:47 PM

Hey Geoff, welcome. You'll get some real answers from others who actually know something, I have one suggestion. Do a forum search here with "Cutty Sark". This model gets discussed all the time, lots of good stuff. Great choice of model too.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 12:50 PM

OK, I pasted the wrong bit in the Media thingy.

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 12:58 PM

I have searched the forum and read, with great interest, all the posts over the years. The one great thing I have learned is - You can always learn more. The subject has been covered extensively but I have never seen anyone raise this question. I am taking this build very cautiously!

  • Member since
    June 2006
  • From: Netherlands
Posted by Grem56 on Monday, June 14, 2010 1:35 PM

Take a look at this build:

If you zoom in you will see a chain sling attached to the eyes you refer to. This keeps the yard horizontal instead of hanging down from the support.

cheers,

Julian Geeked

 

illegal immigrants have always been a problem in the United States. Ask any Indian.....................

Italeri S-100: http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/112607.aspx?PageIndex=1

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, June 14, 2010 1:37 PM

It's an interesting question.  I just took a look at the George Campbell plans of the ship; he doesn't show eyebolts in those positions. 

What we're talking about is a set of heavy bands, made of sheet iron, that wrap around the yard and serve as the mounting apparatus for the truss or (depending on which yard we're talking about) parral mechanism that holds the yard to the mast.  Such bands frequently did have eyebolts welded to them (or screwed into the yard itself, if it was wood, through holes in the bands).  But Mr. Campbell's plans - which I think we can trust - don't show them.  (Neither do the relevant drawings in his book, China Tea Clippers.) I don't know what led the Revell designers to put them there, but they're pretty clearly in error.  I'd recommend slicing them off.

The plans do show a good-sized eyebolt in the center of the top of each yard, to take the halyard or chain truss.  If you intend to do a fairly thorough job of rigging the model (which is, of course, entirely up to you), I'd suggest adding those eyebolts.

Slightly later edit - apparently Julian and I were typing at the same time.  The photo in his post shows, I believe, the U.S.S. Kearsarge.  Her yards may have been rigged that way, but it's pretty clear that the Cutty Sark has eyebolts only on the tops of the yards - and only in the center.

Another suggestion (based on bitter experience):  throw out all the plastic eyebolts that come with the kit.  They aren't strong enough to take the pull of the rigging lines that are secured to them.  Several companies (my favorite is Bluejacket - www.bluejacketinc.com - sell ready-made brass eyebolts.  It's also extremely easy to make your own out of wire.

While you're at it, get rid of the plastic belaying pins.  Plastic is a wonderful material, but it just isn't strong enough for small parts that have rigging lines tied to them.  (There's a good chance that quite a few of the ones in your kit had been busted off before you opened the box.)  Replacement brass belaying pins aren't cheap, but believe me you won't regret buying them.

One more point and I'll shut up.  Every time the subject of this ship comes up in the Forum I recommend the aforementioned set of plans by George Campbell.  They're superb pieces of draftsmanship by a master.  (He was the naval architect who supervised the reconstruction of the ship back in the fifties.)  Just about everything you could possibly want to know about the ship is on those three sheets of paper.  They're available - for a remarkably reasonable price - through the ship's gift shop:  http://www.cuttysark.org.uk/index.cfm?fa=contentShop.productDetails&productId=14853&startrow=1&directoryId=345  .  That's less than $20.00 U.S. - and your money will help pay for the current restoration project.  One of the great bargains in ship modeling.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 2:22 PM

Thank you for such a detailed reply.

I did order the Plans from the London shop. They cost $20.33 inc shipping and I can't wait to see them!

This is one of the most detailed closeups I could find showing the Lower Fore Yard.

 

I have also been "manufacturing" minature eyebolts the past few days (together with stirrups for the foot ropes). After a lot of trial and error I found the best wire came from bag ties/cable ties. You have to strip the plastic off but the wire forms very easily round a pin drill. I have a nice little collection in various sizes.

None of the belay pins were broken but a number of the jackstay supports were. I spent quite a few hours last night repairing the damaged Yards.

I have read past posts about the strngth of the belay pins. I am still contemplating this one. How many other people have suffered breaking pins once they start rigging?

I thank you, once again, for your valued input.

fox
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Narvon, Pa.
Posted by fox on Monday, June 14, 2010 3:01 PM

Welcome Sign Welcome aboard Geoff.  I replaced all the eyebolts and belaying pins on the couple of sailing ships I have built after having breaking problems. It's worth the extra expense to keep from having problems later in the build. Good luck with your build.

Jim Captain

 Main WIP: 

   On the Bench:  1/48 Tamiya - Vought F4U-1A Corsair for Group Build 'Absent Friends' 50%                                                                   1/48 Encore Models - A-37B/OA-37B Dragonfly 50%

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 3:30 PM

Thanks Jim. One of my first decisions was to replace the eyebolts - that seems to be a given but I wasn't expecting to have to replace all the belay pins. And, yes, when I look, some are broken already. Must be around 150 in total. At $3.50 per doz that's $55.50!

Since they will all have thread around them do you think I could get away with using copper wire?

Geoff

  • Member since
    July 2005
Posted by caramonraistlin on Monday, June 14, 2010 7:36 PM

Geoff:

 

When I built the 1/96 Revell Constitution, I didn't have any problem with broken belaying pins. I'd go with the kit ones and if one breaks just replace that one with a scratch built one perhaps of solid plastic tubing cut to length. I believe you are quite right about them being covered with thread which should be wrapped in a figure eight around the pin anyway to simulate the actual method a line was belayed or tied off on a rail with the pin in it.

Sincerely

 

Michael Lacey

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 8:41 PM

Thank you for your input Michael.

 

I still have vivid memories of going to a Restaurant on the harbour at Penzance in Cornwall, England called ‘The Revenue Cutter’. In the entrance they had a model of the Cutty Sark in a glass display case. I used to examine it every time I visited there and marvel at the incredible detail. It was so well built that it took a while before I realized it was made from a plastic kit!

 

I went to the local hobby shop to enquire if they had such a kit. They had the Revell Thermopylae on the shelf so I settled for that.

 

That was 40 years ago. In those days we did not have the luxury of the internet and wonderful forums like this for discussion and the exchange of knowledge, not to mention research!

 

I remember the excitement at the thought of building such a large and complicated model. I was totally confident that I would complete it in no time at all. I followed the instructions very carefully, step by step. I soon became dissatisfied very early on and never finished it.

 

A couple of years later I did buy the Cutty Sark and I almost finished this kit but remember still getting very frustrated by order of assembly proposed in the instructions. (I had already learned a lot about not following the sequences in the instructions from the abandoned Thermopylae).

 

I even made a trip to Greenwich, London to take photographs of the actual ship to help me with the colors and rigging. It was a dark, damp, grey day. The photographs did not come out too well but at least I had seen ‘her’ and walked her deck!

 

My kit remained unfinished for years, I had grand ideas of it being in a showcase, but there were so many inaccuracies… Then we moved house.

 

The bowsprit was snapped plus other damage. It shared space with the wreck of the Thermopylae on a shelf on the garage for many years until I admitted defeat and committed them both to a landfill.

 

I hate failure and I made a vow, all those years ago, that I would complete that model before I died. Well I can’t wait much longer…

 

Back then, I never thought about using any materials other than those supplied in the kit but do remember being concerned about those little plastic eyebolts.

 

I did, laboriously, belay correctly using the figure of eight topped off with a few loops, soaking the thread with a mix tube cement and liquid cement. I think this technique prevented me suffering from broken pins (due to strain) because the thread, pin and pin rail were all bonded together in one lump!

 

I am experimenting, at the moment, with some thick copper wire, to see if I can make my own replacement pins because it seems to make sense but would love to hear if anyone else has suffered breaking pins after their model has been finished.

 

Geoff

fox
  • Member since
    January 2007
  • From: Narvon, Pa.
Posted by fox on Monday, June 14, 2010 8:52 PM

Hi Geoff.   Just checked my "Model Expo" catalog and found some brass belaying pins for about 1/2 of what you found. 3/16"(5mm), 5/16"(8mm), and 15/32"(12mm) in bulk pack at 150 for $29.99. They are in Hollywood Fla. so shipping time would be short also unless you live close to them. Hope this helps.

Jim Captain

 Main WIP: 

   On the Bench:  1/48 Tamiya - Vought F4U-1A Corsair for Group Build 'Absent Friends' 50%                                                                   1/48 Encore Models - A-37B/OA-37B Dragonfly 50%

I keep hitting "escape", but I'm still here.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 9:29 PM

Thanks for that lead Jim, they do have pretty good prices. I need to order some deadeyes and I see they do those in bulk too.

I have just returned home from vacation in Fort Lauderdale – 5 miles from their location! But then, I wasn’t thinking about deadeyes or belay pins or chain etc. while I was there!

Looking at their website it is not clear if they have a store front or if they are strictly mail order. Anyone know?

Geoff

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Monday, June 14, 2010 9:47 PM

Geoff,

I read through your postings and anyone who wants to build the RCS  is Ok in my book ;)  Been there and done that 15-17 times over the years for customers, with each one I seem to get better.  As you can see by my Avitar, I too like the CS.  I wrote a companion guide to go alone with the model instr, bookel, it takes into account some painting issues and detailing thats not covered as well as a few changes in the assem. inst.  I can email it to you if you wish,  Please send an email to 

 jbgroby@charter.net

I've tried to post it to the forum, bjut it gets garbled up  on some of the sections.  I'll send it to anyone who wishes a copy also, mkae sure you put the request in teh subject line so I won't think its junkmail.

If you can use any of these pic, help your self.

http://news.webshots.com/album/208514027pzrDjh

Jake

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, June 14, 2010 11:02 PM

GeoffWilkinson

Thanks Jim. One of my first decisions was to replace the eyebolts - that seems to be a given but I wasn't expecting to have to replace all the belay pins. And, yes, when I look, some are broken already. Must be around 150 in total. At $3.50 per doz that's $55.50!

Since they will all have thread around them do you think I could get away with using copper wire?

Geoff

Your sample eyebolt looks fine.  Another way to do it, if you're trying to get smaller results, is to use fine brass or copper wire.  (You can pick it up at either a hobby shop or an electronics store - such as Radio Shack.

I hope you've got a pin vise and a set of drill bits, #61 through #80.  (If you don't, I strongly recommend getting it asap; you'll almost certainly need it.)  Those drill bits make good mandrels for forming eyebolts in any size you like.  If you're using brass wire, soften it up first by passing it over a flame from a candle or lighter.  (Copper is probably already soft enough.)  Hold the drill bit, point down, in a pair of pliers or (preferably) a vise.  Loop the wire around the drill bit and twist the ends together into a "pigtail."  With a little practice you can make two or three eyebolts every minute.

Another good, inexpensive acquisition is a bottle of chemical blackener.  (Trade names include "Blacken-It" and "Brass Black."  I understand that gun bluing will also work, though I haven't tried it.)  Dunk your eyebolts in this stuff.  Lay them on a folded-up piece of tissue paper to dry, then give them a quick shot of clear flat spray (e.g., Testor's Dullcoat).  That'll deter the blackener from flaking/powdering off.

You probably can get away with using copper wire for belaying pins; that sort of decision really needs to be left to the individual modeler.  (I'd be strongly inclined to use brass myself, but I guess copper probably would work ok.)  The arguments the other way are as follows:   1.  Since the wire won't have the requisite "step" turned in it, it will tend to slide through the hole you've drilled in the pinrail.  (And it probably will do so at the most inopportune moment possible.)  2.  The manufactured belaying pins will look more like belaying pins.  (The number of them that actually get concealed by rope coils will depend on how much of the running rigging you install.  Even if you include every line that's shown on the Campbell drawings, some of the pins will be unused - though not many of them.) 

I'm certainly sympathetic to any modeler who finds it necessary these days to cut corners because of money.  On the other hand, you're going to be looking at this model for a long time - and so are lots of other people.  And there's no need to buy the full complement of belaying pins at the same time.  You could buy a couple of dozen, use them to establish the sizes of the holes that need to be drilled in the various pinrails, drill all the holes, and buy more pins as you need them. 

My personal custom, when it comes to such things, is to order as many blocks, deadeyes, or whatever as I think I'll need in a couple of weeks.  I get most of my stuff from Bluejacket, which gives excellent service;  an order placed via computer usually gets to me here in North Carolina in three or four days. 

But it's all up to the individual modeler.  Good luck.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 11:02 PM

Jake

Jake, 15-17 times – wow!!!

I decided to get back into modeling this year and, for my sins, chose the 1/96 Revell Beagle to start on.

While researching that I did come across many of your postings and found your companion guide on

modelshipwrightsdatabase.com.

It sits on my workbench right now as my companion! That truly was an inspiration for me and I thank you.

I did complete the ‘Beagle’model, out of sheer stubbornness, although it was very frustrating. I now have my first completed model ship, it’s just a pity it is not a true representation of the ship I thought I was making. I think things started going downhill when I got a copy of Anatomy of the Ship HMS Beagle. I could no longer put my heart into it more than just finish ‘something’!

I have just uploaded some photos, I hope this works:

http://s795.photobucket.com/albums/yy234/GeoffWilkinson/Revells%20HMS%20Beagle/

 (I only signed up tonight).

Geoff

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Monday, June 14, 2010 11:48 PM

I'd use hard steel wire. I suppose if you got gutsy you could even heat it in a pair of forceps and plunge it through the pin rail. Here's another idea which is probably daft because I don't really remember what those pins are like- straight pins.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Monday, June 14, 2010 11:54 PM

Yes, one of the first things I bought was a couple of sets of 15 pin drills 0.30mm to 1.00mm on ebay for about $5.00. I thought that was a steal! I think that is roughly the same as wire sizes 61 through 80.

The eyebolt in the photo above, next to a dime, is about 80 gauge wire from a sandwich bag tie. I made a bunch of them for my Beagle model and some cleats too. That wire bends and forms very easily and I was thrilled to ‘discover’ it.

Thanks for the tip about ‘Blacken-it’. I am ordering a bulk length of 47 lpi chain for parts of the running rigging although this kit, H-373, makes no mention of chain for running rigging, Just the bowsprit.

I tried spray-painting the chain for the Beagle but that was not very satisfactory.

I was trying to experiment making copper bely pins tonight, I think I may have run out of time, but will post my findings/conclusions.

I do take the point that the shaped, manufactured ones would look a whole lot better where nothing is attached.

I think I may just end up getting the 150 bag for $30 because If I live long enough to finish this project the USS Constitution was delivered today to wait in the sidelines!

Geoff

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:18 AM

For Prof Tilley  ;-)

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 12:01 PM

Jake,

 Re my initial posting. I have looked at your photos again and I think I see that you have used these eyes for some of the Yard lifts. I wondered if you had any comments that would help before I go and butcher all my Yards by snipping them off.

Geoff

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 3:18 PM

Geoff,

Yes I did. it seemed an easy way to go and the instructions were probaly wrong.  At the time I did not have Campbells Plans, so I was trying to make the best of both wolrds.

Jake

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:46 PM

I await the Campbell plans and hope I will not be disappointed!

In the meantime, back at my workbench.

I woke up with an idea re the belay pins and it has been bugging me all day. I thought I would try it out and was so pleased I thought I would share it in case it helps anyone.

I found a nut that was 8mm thick (the length of the belay pins on the model) and I used this as a rough guide to cut the copper wire I had stripped from a piece of old coax.

I cut enough pieces to pack tightly into the nut. It only took a couple of minutes. I started grinding with my Dremmel , turning the packed nut over frequently. When the copper was level with nut I had 47 pins all exactly 8mm long. Whole process, including taking the snaps took just over twenty minutes. I’ll do one more batch and see how long that takes without having to fiddle with the camera. Hope this helps someone.

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:51 PM

Sorry Guys, still getting used to posting! Above was supposed to be a collection of images.

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 5:56 PM

 

  • Member since
    March 2007
  • From: Carmel, CA
Posted by bondoman on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:39 PM

Hey those look swell. clever way to hold them.

  • Member since
    February 2003
  • From: Lacombe, LA.
Posted by Big Jake on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 6:43 PM

Geoff,

Make sure you clean out the holes for the rigging at the bottom of the pin rail, you use those in some of the rigging steps. Bascally, the men would pull up or out against the area with a line traveling up to something or other.

 

 

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:50 PM

Jake,

I think you are looking at the broken fife rail?

I did see this photograph where the lower holes were in use but I could not figure out for what!

The rigging plan didn't help either. (see below). Any ideas?

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:59 PM

Thanks bondoman. I was itching to try it all day, it nearly drove me insane - when I did I couldn't believe how quick it was!

"Necessity is the Mother of Invention" - Plato

  • Member since
    June 2010
  • From: Cocoa, Florida
Posted by GeoffWilkinson on Tuesday, June 15, 2010 10:41 PM

I conceed. You were right about ditching the belay pins. At first it seemed like a daunting task that was going to be expensive for questionable gain (I thought!).

I did, however, ponder the idea. After my sucess at producing 47 pins all exactly 8mm long earlier this evening I decided to take the next step and make a short pinrail to see how difficult it was and what it looked like.

I am now totally convinced! Your strong words have been heeded.

I spent five miniutes roughly rounding the tops of five of the pins, flattened a pice of sprue to 1mm thick and drilled 5 1mm holes 3mm apart, same as the Fife rail. The pins fitted snugly. A tiny drip of CA sealed their fate.

I took a short length of rigging thread and belayed it to the rail. It sure is sturdy!

Bearing in mind this was just a test, I think the results look quite acceptable.

Thanks for your words of wisdom.

 

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