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Heller Soleil Royal (WIP)

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  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Monday, February 29, 2016 9:39 AM

Oops Edited my opinion comments Whistling

 

Rob

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Monday, February 29, 2016 10:28 AM

Noted.

And moving on....

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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

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  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Monday, February 29, 2016 12:55 PM

I've been trying to sort out the question of rigging line colors for close to fifty years now. My final, definitive answer, based on studying documents, photographs, paintings, models, and real ships is (drum roll please).....I don't know.

This subject doesn't seem to be at all well documented. The only firm reference I've seen to rigging color is the British eighteenth-century law requiring that all rope supplied to the Royal Navy be soaked in Stockholm tar. I don't think I've ever seen Stockholm tar, but as I understand it its color is a warm medium brown. That would seem to be the appropriate color for running rigging on eighteenth- and early-nineteenth-century British warships. That's about as far as I feel comfortable going.

I have the strong impression that the practice of coating the standing rigging with tar after the rigging was set up was common at least as early as the mid-seventeenth century (but I'm not sure about that date range). The "tar" in question apparently was a nasty mixture of tar, lampblack, and other stuff that, if it wasn't pure black, must have been pretty close.

Sources on rigging colors can be really deceptive. Photographs of the real ships are almost useless; they almost invariably show the rigging in silhouette. The works of the great marine painters have the same problem. Restored sailing ships and replicas almost always are rigged with modern synthetics. (They have to be, in order to be economically viable.)

The vast majority of contemporary ship models from the seventeeth, eighteenth, and nineteenteenth centuries have been rerigged in the twentieth (or twenty-first) century. (Most of the magnificent models in the Rodgers Collection at Annapolis, for instance, were rigged by Henry Culver in the 1920s and '30s.) The few old models that still have their original rigging have been around so long that the color of it is almost irrelevant. I've worked on several nineteenth-century models whose rigging had been coated with varnish, which makes the thread considerably darker than it presumably was originality.

I don't have a real answer to the question of tarring deadeye lanyards and ratlines, either. I've seen conflicting evidence in paintings and models. Some people have gotten rather emotional about the subject of tarred ratlines. Those people's strong opinions not withstanding, I don't think there's a universal answer to that one either.

One point: it seems to me that, though a shroud could certainly be set up and tarred before the ratlines were added, it would be mighty difficult (and time-consuming) to recoat the shroud with tar after the ratlines were in place. (The ratlines would almost have to be removed until the job was done. That seems highly unlikely.) And records indicate that "re-blackening" the standing rigging was quite a common practice.

I will repeat what I regard as the two golden rules of ship model rigging: 1. If in doubt as to diameter, err on the small side. 2. If in doubt as to color, err on the dark side. (I can't understand why modelers make standing rigging out of white thread.)

My personal answer to the basic question: I don't know. And I frankly question whether anybody else does.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Friday, March 11, 2016 3:07 PM

my email is down at the moment dave , so thankyou for your reply

 

steve

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, March 13, 2016 1:33 PM

Very nice work on the deadeyes and shrouds bro. 

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, March 19, 2016 8:46 AM

Thanks, Steve...and congratulations to you on your Catalan...that thing is going to be among your best builds!
I'm currently working on ratlines on the lower mainmast now, so hopefully soon I'll have some progress pics.

Dave

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     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Tuesday, March 29, 2016 12:20 AM

Thanks Dave! I'm looking forward to your progress pics. Watching all the rigging going on around here right now is really cool.

Steve

       

 

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
Posted by cerberusjf on Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:19 PM

Hi,

I just stumbled across an article in Mariner's mirror in 1942 written by R.C. Anderson,

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00253359.1942.10658809?journalCode=rmir20

and he says the model used for his book on 17th century rigging was the "Royal Louis"in the Louvre.  He took the word of Admiral Paris that it was of Royal Louis of 1692.  It turned out that the model was then dated between 1715-1730 and was used in the instruction of Louis XV and I think must be the same model as the Louis XV model I posted earlier, which is now in the Musee de la Marine. 

So, R.C. Anderson's "Royal Louis" = Admiral Paris' "Royal Louis" = "Louis XV" and it is the only model that dates from the reign of Louis XIV.  The only other contemporary source I know is the Album de Colbert, which probably gives an incomplete description of the rigging.

 

I do have plans of le Phoenix from AAMM and it seems to be based on te ship in the Album de Colbert.  They show the bowsprit rigging "saddle" that is provided in the kit, bit some of the plans I have from AAMM contain errors, so it's best to be cautious with them.  I'll post images from them if they would be useful?  I guess you pays your money and takes your choice in this case..

There is also a discussion of the bowsprit for Soleil Royal here if you scroll down to Sunday 3rd November 2013 13:00, where you can also see an image of the bowsprit from the Album de Colbert :-

http://www.wettringer-modellbauforum.de/forum/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=43676&pageNo=29

Anderson said that there is a sail plan of Royal Louis 1690 in the Danish museum, but I don't have a copy, ot know how detaile dthey would be concerning the rigging.

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, April 2, 2016 7:23 PM

Here's a question:

When tying ratlines...who starts at the top and *rattles down*, and who starts at the bottom and works their way up?  I read somewhere that they should be done from the top down, but I've always worked my way up....

Any thoughts?  I'm about to rattle the mizzen shrouds, and now I wonder if I should try the *other* way?

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, April 2, 2016 8:39 PM

I don't know which would be better, but I go bottom to top, every fourth and then fill in between.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    May 2003
  • From: Greenville, NC
Posted by jtilley on Saturday, April 2, 2016 9:15 PM

I do it about the same way GM does. And if a rat line looks too slack, I slide it down one step.

I have no idea why anybody would suggest working from the top down. The key to success is to mark the locations of all the rat lines on the card you've put behind the shrouds, making sure the spacing comes out right relative to the dead eyes and the futtock stave. (The spell checker in my I-phone tried to render that "tutti onstage." Sheesh.) Then make yourself follow the guidelines.

Youth, talent, hard work, and enthusiasm are no match for old age and treachery.

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Saturday, April 2, 2016 9:54 PM

I'm the same as above

 

  • Member since
    February 2011
Posted by cerberusjf on Sunday, April 3, 2016 4:23 AM

Bottom up.

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, April 3, 2016 10:32 AM

Good stuff.

Thanks, Guys!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Saturday, April 23, 2016 10:59 PM

Yikes.

I guess it HAS been awhile since I posted any progress here!

I've pretty much got the standing rigging of the lower masts done, including two firsts for me:  Futtock Shrouds and Masttop Crowsfeet.  Like anything, they were intimidating until I dove in and gave it a try...I still think there's room for improvement, but all in all...I like it!

Without further ado, here's a few pictures I took today:

Here's a full side view...you can see the deflection of the stays is pretty minimal.  It took a steady hand, and a patient state of mind to achieve it!

Foremast Shrouds and top...all the ratlines are in place, and the futtock Shrouds were kind of a hassle due to A: the Deadeyes weren't kit parts, and so a compounding effort to overcome the kit design ensued; and B: it was my first time!

View of the stay and the crowsfeet rigging.  I made the euphroe from 1.5mm square Evergreen rod, shaped drilled and painted.  not sure if the shape of the euphroe is consistent with an actual euphroe, but for me it was more practically designed to follow function.  I like it. The kit plans just say to tie 12 individual lines from the holes in the tops directly to the stay....I really thought that would look super busy, so I went for this approach instead, especially liking Steve5's work in a similar way.

Here's the stay and top of the Mainmast.

Finally, another full view port side.

Demands on my time for activities OTHER than modeling have prevailed these few months, and with Summer looming, I don't see a change to that trend.  But, I'll content myself with small amounts of progress during my free time, and hope to delight you all with more updates as events warrant Cool

My next steps will include topmasts, so that's pretty exciting!  Finally getting off the deck!

Thanks for looking!

David_K

 

 

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Sunday, April 24, 2016 12:33 AM

really lovely work dave ,I sometimes wish I had started 6 months later so I could follow you ,I might not have been so rough on some of the build, but cest le vive , one last thing , when you do your upper shrouds ,  I found it better to do the ratlines before the backstays

a quick question please dave , the rigging that goes from the forestay to the bowsprit mast where do you tie it off , is it on the mast top , or does it go down to the hull thank's

steve5

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, April 24, 2016 9:35 AM

Thanks, Steve-

I think you're asking about the bowsprit topmast backstay...It is seized around the masthead, above the top but below the cap.  My picture may be confusing because I have it temporarily fixed there with several inches of extra line hanging down.  That's just so I can make adjustments to it after more of the rigging is done...that particular tackle is going to require a very delicate touch to keep everything in place, so I'm waiting to see if anything else puts it out of whack so I can permanently set it later.

Hope that helps?

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Sunday, April 24, 2016 8:02 PM

cheer's dave

 

  • Member since
    December 2012
Posted by rwiederrich on Thursday, April 28, 2016 9:33 AM

Splendid work Dave........

 

Rob

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • From: Ludwigsburg Germany
Posted by dafi on Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:06 PM

Nice and clean rigging, love it!

 

XXXDan

  • Member since
    March 2014
Posted by kpnuts on Thursday, April 28, 2016 12:10 PM
Superb work david
  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, April 28, 2016 4:43 PM

Rob, Dan, and Kpnuts....thanks, gentlemen!  Your compliments mean a lot, coming from some well-respected modelers such as yourselves!

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Thursday, April 28, 2016 4:57 PM

I'm posting a couple photos of my recent work on the tgallant crosstrees, with respect to my approach for the deadeyes and futtock shroud leads:

First, here's a shot of the underside...It may not be perfectly easy to see, but I drilled an extra hole adjacent to where the deadeye strop leads through the crosstree, for the purpose of keeping the deadeye fixed firmly to the Xtree, and the Futtock Shroud lead also firmly fixed (I wish to not have tension from my topgallant shrouds create any chaos with the topmast shrouds)....After stropping the deadeye with annealed wire and running it through the outermost hole, I bent the wire over and trimmed it close.  I then tied a stopper knot at one end of a short length of .018 Dark Brown Syren line, and fed it down through the second (adjacent) hole.

As you can see, the futtock shroud lead is close enough the deadeye to make no matter to my eye, but now they are both firmly attached to the crosstree.  A slight adjustment of the wire leads to a more convenient position, and a couple dabs of CA and everything sits well.

Finally, here's a picture of the crosstree temporarily held in place by hand to show the basic effect.

For anyone else who may be building this model, keep in mind that I'm performing a simplified rig, and therefore not including certain lines of the running rigging...in this case, the crosstree already had one hole adjacent to the foremost deadeye which was intended for the rigging block of the topgallant sheet (a line I'm not using)...if anyone is considering to use my method, or something similar, they would need to relocate their block for the sheet...just slightly to the side.  Since I'm not installing sheets, I just used that hole for my futtock shroud leads, and made additional holes near the other deadeyes.

Thanks for looking!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    January 2015
Posted by rdiaz on Friday, April 29, 2016 12:44 AM

Nice work Dave,

 

Are you going to replace the topgallant masts with wood? How do the plastic ones feel in this kit?

 

Cheers

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Friday, April 29, 2016 12:22 PM

Thanks, Roberto...

The Topgallant masts feel about as sturdy as I'd expect.  It would be nice if they were stiffer, but I think they'll work out fine as-is.  With some attention to balancing the tension of the lifts and braces, I don't expect any wonky bending *knock on wood*....

Of course, if I run into trouble of that sort, I may well resort to substituting them for wood...let's see what happens! Smile

 

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    December 2015
  • From: providence ,r.i.
Posted by templar1099 on Friday, April 29, 2016 4:52 PM

Went through the whole post, truly awsome work.

"le plaisir delicieux et toujours nouveau d'une occupation inutile"

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • From: Russia, St.Peterburg
Posted by kirill4 on Friday, April 29, 2016 6:00 PM

Yes, absolutely agree!!!

very good job!!! awsome!

 

  • Member since
    March 2012
  • From: Marysville, WA
Posted by David_K on Sunday, May 1, 2016 10:10 AM

Thank you, Gentleman.  I appreciate it!

Dave

        _~
     _~ )_)_~
     )_))_))_)
     _!__!__!_         
     (_D_P_K_)
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    ~~~~~~~~~~~

Current Project:  Imai/ERTL Spanish Galleon #2

Recently Finished: Revell 1/96 Cutty Sark

Next Up:  ???

 

  • Member since
    April 2016
  • From: Russia, St.Peterburg
Posted by kirill4 on Sunday, May 1, 2016 10:34 AM

Good day,

Dear Dave,

may be I'm wrong, but seems to me there is tackle missed ,need to be attached at the end of crowsfeet euphroe...which used to tight bridles/crowsfeet...?

I mean smthn. like on this model of Le Louis Quinz 1715...

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pls advise,

BRGDS

Kirill

 

 

  • Member since
    July 2010
  • From: Tempe AZ
Posted by docidle on Sunday, May 1, 2016 1:50 PM

Dave,

Stunning work bro! The rigging is really top notch. 

Steve

       

 

 

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