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USS Arizona, As Sunk circa 1960's, in 1/350

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  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
USS Arizona, As Sunk circa 1960's, in 1/350
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Thursday, October 3, 2019 10:56 AM
Several years back I picked up the Banner model of the USS Arizona in 1/350 scale. I had the intention of building it as a semi kit bash, which is out of the box, plus modifications / corrections as best as possible short of using photo etched parts. Well, I put something like ten hours into it, sanding and removing a bunch of incorrect things. Then I put it away for another day when life would be more conducive to such activities. So, lots of time went by.
Now in the waning months of 2019, I’ve pulled it out again and decided to build it as an “As Sunk”, circa 1960’s. Going through the kit, I was stunned at the lack of detail, especially in this scale. It actually has less detail and correctness than the Revell 1/426 (1/429) kit. I started to list the required corrections but quit shortly thereafter as the list was getting way too long.
 
As the kit was already started I had to regroup and shift gears from the original plan to the as sunk version. So, I broke out the chainsaw .  .  . 
 
  
 
  
 
 
 As I said, I’m re-starting this kit so there are things to be un-done, in time. I will keep the upper hull assembly intact while I start cutting away the damage and salvage holes. Unfortunately, some things can’t be undone so I’ll have to either remake parts or come up with another solution. An example of this is the aft 1.1” tubs. If I were starting this new, I’d have cut the tubs out of the deck and filled the open holes with styrene. That way I could have simply added a pedestal and re-mounted them. But, alas, I cut the tubs off at the deck so now it’s either buy some or re-build them.    

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Thursday, October 3, 2019 11:12 AM

are you keeping it full hull as i don't see the lower hull in the pictures?

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Thursday, October 3, 2019 11:18 AM
For those unfamiliar with ARIZONA, when the armor-piercing bomb detonated in the forward magazine group, the whole shebang went up in a chain-reaction (actually due to sympathetic detonation) cataclysmic explosion. This not only literally blew away hundreds of tons of ship, but expanded the forward hull considerably. Since I’m building without the lower hull, after removing the big chunk, I will have to make a frame to hold the hull expansion so I can build over it.
 
 
 
 
Basically like this. Then I can build up to get the collapsed fore deck to the right height and build up the debris slope between turret 1 and the remains of the bow. This frame is not glued in yet as I'm working on he salvage cuts in the galley area and have to add decks below those cuts.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Friday, October 4, 2019 11:14 AM

I'll be watching HooYah 

I've been thinking about using that same kit as an above water version before the mast, superstructure and turret was removed using resin as the water. 

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Friday, October 4, 2019 12:13 PM

It would be quite the challenge as the level of detail to make it look right would be daunting. There is also a shortage of good photos to go by cuz simply speaking, there ain't no drawings of that. It would be a nearly 100% "on your own" kinda build. Good Luck though.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, October 4, 2019 12:35 PM

I'm curious to hear what you plan to do about the water, Brian.

It's way too big a kit to encase in resin, which wouldn't look right anyhow.

I suppose the easiest thing would be to simply not show the water, or maybe fill a box with water for the purposes of photographing the model.

Otherwise I would think placing it under a piece of acrylic or glass in a case would be fine.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Friday, October 4, 2019 2:52 PM

I'm going with the concept of "If Pearl Harbor were drained .  .  .", and am not adding the memorial span, dock, or mooring quays. I did a model like this back in the day (1980's) using the Revell kit and nothing but the ship's drawings and picture post cards. Turned out pretty good, all in all. Even Robert Sumrall, formerly of the U.S. Naval Academy model shop though it looked decent.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Friday, October 4, 2019 3:37 PM

I'm sure it did. How about a wrecked Kate?

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    March 2019
  • From: Post Falls, Idaho
Posted by Sigep Ziggy on Friday, October 4, 2019 5:49 PM

Looks reall good HooYah. I can use yours to help me on mine.

your shipmate,

Ziggy

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Friday, October 4, 2019 9:49 PM

Well, the next step is to finish removing all of the vents, salvage cuts and destroyed structure from midships and sorting out which level is which, adding lower decks as needed. The damage to the ship is compounded by the multi-level collapse between the stack and the bow, much of it dragged forward and down by the falling barbettes and turrets 1 and 2.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2014
Posted by modelcrazy on Friday, October 4, 2019 10:00 PM

What do you suppose is at the bow in this picture HooYah?

Steve

Building a kit from your stash is like cutting a head off a Hydra, two more take it's place.

 

 

http://www.spamodeler.com/forum/

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Friday, October 4, 2019 10:44 PM

It is the bent and folded up remains of the bow structure. And it is not "supposed", as I've been there, though a good bit of that debris had been cut away by the time I visited. You need to think of the bow of the ship like a blooming flower. As the explosion progressed (yes, multiple sympathetic detonations in a chain) through the hull, the hull contained it for only so long, expanding and ballooning. Then via the weakest path, and channelled by heavy armor belts and the forward collision bulkhead, it broke through along the upper sides and the deck area forward of the No. 1 turret. The turrets and barbettes were supported by the pressure and then as it subsided, they dropped into the chasm below, some 22 feet below normal firing position. Their fall dragged the surrounding decks down and forward, bringing about the collapse of the superstructure. (If you want more .  .  . you should buy my book! .  .  . or just keep following this thread.) 

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, October 5, 2019 12:00 AM

Yes, the turrets including the barbettes and rifles each weighed close to 4,000 tons. That is TWO Fletcher Class destroyers. 

 

 

 

 

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, October 5, 2019 9:58 AM

HooYah Deep Sea

It would be quite the challenge as the level of detail to make it look right would be daunting. Ther is also a shortage of good photos to go by cuz simply speaking, there ain't no drawings of that. It would be a nearly 100% "on your own" kinda build. Good Luck though.

 

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 10:17 AM

I'm very aware of those drawings, hell, I helped draw them. I was refering to drawings and photos of the ship post attack, pre salvage. There are not a lot of those.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, October 5, 2019 10:37 AM

HooYah Deep Sea

I'm very aware of those drawings, hell, I helped draw them. I was refering to drawings and photos of the ship post attack, pre salvage. There are not a lot of those.

 

Ok, got ya. I misread your post that I quoted. I presume you were one of the divers doing the survey work?

There are actually plenty of photos of the Arizona wreck immediately after the attack and of subsequent salvage work.

https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineLibrary/photos/events/wwii-pac/pearlhbr/ph-az7.htm

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 11:28 AM

There has probably been less than twenty photos of Arizona, post attack, pre salvage that have ever been publicly disseminated. Most of them are taken from some distance and can't really be used for detail work. Pics of the starboard side are extremely limited; probably less than five and I can only readily recall two. When the Thirteenth Naval District (as I recall; Help Tracy, my memory is failing!) was dissolved, literally tons of records and photographs were .  .  . well, they kinda disappeared. Nobody has located all that stuff to my knowledge. Those records include much of the attack and post attack documentation, and a lot of info on what was going on aboard the ships at the time, including the work being done on Arizona. This is part of the reason why the famous 'color change' was not noted until the last say, ten years.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Saturday, October 5, 2019 11:31 AM

GMorrison, each turret with guns & barbette won't weigh close to 4000 tons as each turret with guns without ammo are about 724 tons. http://archive.hnsa.org/doc/guncat/cat-0540.htm

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 11:56 AM

I can't seem to locate my turret docs, but whatever the weight, it was sufficient to drag the whole mess forward and down.  

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    September 2012
Posted by GMorrison on Saturday, October 5, 2019 12:05 PM

Ahh, gotcha. Maybe I was remembering the total of four, which in any case would be around 3,000 tons. Thanks for the correction.

 Modeling is an excuse to buy books.

 

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, October 5, 2019 12:06 PM

HooYah Deep Sea

There has probably been less than twenty photos of Arizona, post attack, pre salvage that have ever been publicly disseminated. Most of them are taken from some distance and can't really be used for detail work. Pics of the starboard side are extremely limited; probably less than five and I can only readily recall two. When the Thirteenth Naval District (as I recall; Help Tracy, my memory is failing!) was dissolved, literally tons of records and photographs were .  .  . well, they kinda disappeared. Nobody has located all that stuff to my knowledge. Those records include much of the attack and post attack documentation, and a lot of info on what was going on aboard the ships at the time, including the work being done on Arizona. This is part of the reason why the famous 'color change' was not noted until the last say, ten years.

 

I suppose it’s all relative. Twenty photos of Arizona post attack, pre salvage is more than many of the other ships. Is the detail visible exact? No, but its enough to infer what should be where. It’s not meticulous like some damage charts now currently available. But it is amazing as to what is turning up over time on so many subjects. Hopefully the missing Arizona information will turn up as well. 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 12:20 PM

Well, like building models of Arizona, one must really study the ship drawings and photos if you want to be accurate. It's one of the things that amaze me when I see builders pay out a couple hundred for a big kit, then another couple hundred for wood decks, PE and "correct" detail pieces; but don't even have the basic structure right. Finding models of Arizona that have the correct structure below the mainmast is rare. Finding Arizona models that are supposed to be 'Dec. 7, 1941' versions that even have the 1.1" director plats in place are even more rare.

Maybe I'm just too anal on this particular subject? Well, chalk it up to 50+ years of studying this ship, and that's how I got the gig with the NPS and was able to dive on the wreck. 

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, October 5, 2019 1:11 PM

Very understandable. Some subjects, I am quite content to accept “as is”, and build them as you get from the box. Others for one reason or another, become a passion project of research, upgrades, and corrections,  almost becoming an obsession to one degree or another. 

 

 

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 1:40 PM

Well, like when I found out that Bob Sumrall was the guy building the big 'as sunk' model that was going in the visitor center, I told Gary Cummins, then superintendent of the Arizona Memorial; "if we find a beer can on that wreck, we'd better note the brand, because Bob will put it in there. That's the level of detail he works in". Gary got a quick lesson in 'detail' from that statement.  

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Saturday, October 5, 2019 2:02 PM

There is a very good book written by one of the first salvage divers to enter the Arizona, “Descent Into Darkness” is the title I beleive. If you have not read it, you may want to look for it. He tells quite a tale.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, October 5, 2019 2:10 PM

Got it, read it. Don't take it for gospel.

Actually it is a decent read, but not a lot of detail on the work. He mentions going inside Arizona to locate a dud bomb; even walks you through the interior .  .  . except, the dud was found in the West Virginia, Not Arizona. And he talks about a big hole (salvage cut) in the deck that isn't on Arizona where he says it was. Like I said, it's a good read, just don't take it for gospel truth. I have no doubt that he did what he did, he just got some of the jobsites confused.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    February 2013
Posted by tomwatkins45 on Sunday, October 6, 2019 8:00 AM

This is fascinating! I'm not a ship modeler, having way more aircraft models in the stash than I'll ever be able to finish, plus a model railroad in the basement. But I follow this forum because I'm interested in them, and I learn ( At 74 learning new things is pretty cool). This is excellent information, and I'm looking forward to seeing your progress.

Tom

  • Member since
    July 2004
  • From: Sonora Desert
Posted by stikpusher on Sunday, October 6, 2019 1:56 PM

HooYah Deep Sea

Got it, read it. Don't take it for gospel.

Actually it is a decent read, but not a lot of detail on the work. He mentions going inside Arizona to locate a dud bomb; even walks you through the interior .  .  . except, the dud was found in the West Virginia, Not Arizona. And he talks about a big hole (salvage cut) in the deck that isn't on Arizona where he says it was. Like I said, it's a good read, just don't take it for gospel truth. I have no doubt that he did what he did, he just got some of the jobsites confused.

 

Its been a few years since I read it... the parts that made more impression on me were more to do with the bodies inside Arizona and their condition. Understandable on confusion of dives. Details can blend as the years march on.

 

F is for FIRE, That burns down the whole town!

U is for URANIUM... BOMBS!

N is for NO SURVIVORS...

       - Plankton

LSM

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Sunday, October 6, 2019 2:36 PM

It's interesting; one of the first questions I'm commonly  asked after people hear that I've dove on the USS Arizona is; "Did you see any remains down there?". I explain that we don't enter the wreck, as it's no only a National Icon, but also a cemetary as such. A certain level of respect and decorum is required.

As for memories, oh yeah. Time does have a way of melding things together. I distinctly recall my dives, but had to rely on personal notes as to the routes taken and work accomplished. I would love to dive her again. there are several areas I'd really like to re-examine. But that is but a pipedream I'm sure.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Monday, October 7, 2019 2:41 PM

Continuing on with the deck holes and getting things shaped correctly. Some holes will need to have support added before they are cut. Also started opening up other hatches back aft too, and the support structure for the mooring pad on the port side. I'm going to use PVC pipe for the lower barbette sections. It took a bit of fitting to do the bottoms, using another PVC fitting. 

One of the interesting thing about doing this model is that I'm finding all of the things I did incorrectly on the earlier 1/429 version. Of course back then, I didn't have the resources I have now. Though, I'm still doing a bunch of this by the pictures I've collected.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

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