Three Revell Constitutions on hand to build.

You have quite the backlog of work ahead of you! Honored that my log has been an inspiration.  I'm looking forward to following along and tracking your progress. 

Evan

order to post pix as I go along, I signed up for Fotki at Bill Morrison's suggestion. On the sign up page, it has columns....1st is 300GBs, second is 600GBs third is 1TB.

Hoe many GBs would be required? Just found out what a TB is. Am not a pc guru at all. Any suggestions?

For the windows on the Captains quarters, I threw way the plastic sheet that came with the kit, and used testors glue/ window maker to create the windows. It is a glue that dries clear, and looks like blown glass...just smear some on the opening, it goes on white, then  dries clear. Use two coats of this stuff on the windows.

Paint the transom first, before making your windows. (This is how I added windows to my n-scale cabooses.)

As soon as I figure out Fotki and how to download pix onto my pc, I'll post pix of the windows...not a pc guru. At least I know how to turn the pc on.

Did the original Constitution have a water line and depth markings on it? 

I have the 300 GB account I've used maybe 2. $ 24 a year.

Once you have the image on Fotki, click on the thumbnail to get the enlarged image. There's a button above it that is labeled "share". Click that and then copopoy the top line of the list of options. Go to FSM and paste into the image window.

Ok, thank you. I'm using a gift card to purchase Fotki because I never put any personal info online as I think there is no such thing as a secure web site.

OK, ship is mounted on the base. I am going to model her with furled sails, ready for sea, anchor still dropped. The anchor rope will be mounted from the ship to the base and the led wiring will be embedded in the anchor rope (it's a fine wire). There will be a hole drilled in the base for securing the anchor cable. Any suggestions for this idea?

Now...would both anchors be in the water, or just one? How does this affect the capstan rigging (?) for raising and dropping the anchors? That might not be visible. I haven't been able to find an answer to this so far in research.

With the ship mounted on model expo pedestals, the anchor cable will be exposed to the base. Any viewers will have to imagine the water.

As soon as I figure out how to download pics from my smart phone to my pc then post on Fotki....

The hull is mounted on a 30 inch x 5 inch saddle board, white oak on two Model Expo brass pedestals. The gun stripe is British yellow. The engravings are in gold.

I used Testors cement and glass maker for the transom windows instead of that plastic kit sheet. The widows look like real blown glass. The transom has to be painted first before using the window maker, and is painted to the instruction specs.

I drilled out the brass pedestals and mounted them using 2 1/2 inch # six bolts and washers, the drilling allowed wiring ffrom Evans Design to go up through the pedestals with shrink wrap for protection...I am using chip leds, 26 of them to light up the officers quatrers and gun deck.

I glued the gun deck together using Plastruk I beams. But the stern section is thinner than the bow and mid sections so the I beam had to be built up with Evergreen strips so the three sections would mate properly. Wonder why Revell did that?

The gun deck is installed with Scale Decks veneer wood deck...laser printed. Not as nice as a real wooden deck but a huge improvement over that plastic monstrocity.

I am planning on bulding up the bulwarks as you did. There are little nibs for rigging the guns, tying off the shrouds and they are in the way. I will be cutting those off. I will use the kit eyebolts for the gun deck carriages only.

The instructions say to run the anchor cable between the rear of the two forward hawser holes in the hull..??? That is obviously wrong, no way you could raise or lower the anchors like that. I'm a landlubber and know better than that! How would those anchors be properly rigged?

I plan on furled sails.

The hull is done on the second model, with a white stripe...I'll finish that one later.

I also managed to get my hands on a third kit, this one made in Germany. It is identical, except the plastic seems to be different, softer.

I do have a midi lathe and am considering seriously on making my own spars.

Incidentally, for the hammocks...n scale netting and link fencing would go great there, instead of using rope lines...I understand the hammocks were aired out there.

There seems to be a question on the gun ports. They were left off or open in good weather and good sailing, off in battle and in port... provided better ventilation in port. The sills seem to have been painted red. Where they were stored is a good question.

The Comey paintings show them off during the battle.

"The instructions say to run the anchor cable between the rear of the two forward hawser holes in the hull..??? That is obviously wrong, no way you could raise or lower the anchors like that. I'm a landlubber and know better than that! How would those anchors be properly rigged?

That's a model tip.

No that wouldn't work. A ship lays cable (the rode) for at least 7 times the depth on which she anchors.

Cable is the term for the very large rope that is attached to the anchor and secured on board to the bitts.

It comes on board through the hawse hole and runs back along the gun deck until it drops into the cable tier. That's usually somewhere forward of the main mast.

The capstan is used to raise the cable. I don't remember on your model, but it usually has room for the crew to insert bars on all of the available decks. It has a vertical axle, on account of the power exerted on it; that has a socket on the keel and is braced pretty solidly at the deck levels. It is located just behind (aft) of the cable locker.

But, the capstan does not handle the anchor cable. It pulls a messenger, a lighter thickness of rope. The messenger is a loop that runs around the barrel of the capstan  enough times to bind to it, up to the bows where it is passed around the fore part of the anchor bitts (big stout posts with a crossbar) and then back down to the capstan. It's taught on the side under load where the capstan force winds it in, then fairly loose in the run back up to the bow.

Here's the trick. As the cable which is big and thick and wet, comes aboard, boys tie short lengths of line around the cable and the messenger, called nips. They do this a lot. When the nips get near the holes that the cable follows down into the locker, other boys (called nippers) untie the messenger. and so on.

It's a great feature to model. 

"As soon as I figure out how to download pics from my smart phone to my pc then post on Fotki...

I just email them from my phone to my email and pull them off on the PC.

"The gun deck is installed with Scale Decks veneer wood deck...laser printed. Not as nice as a real wooden deck but a huge improvement over that plastic monstrocity.

I am planning on bulding up the bulwarks as you did. There are little nibs for rigging the guns, tying off the shrouds and they are in the way. I will be cutting those off. I will use the kit eyebolts for the gun deck carriages only."

Please allow yourself the freedom to only detail the part of the gun deck visible through the opening on the weather deck.

"Got some leds from Evans Design to light up the gun deck, chip leds, soft white."

Whale oiul lamps did not flicker.

Laying wood decking is not difficult and is very rewarding.

A full description is easy, but I don't want to hijack the thread.

The multi part weather deck of this kit has always been it's worst feature.

Whichever way you go; paint, plank or complete wood overlay- get the plastic parts glued together and made flush and smooth in every way other than the seam.

If you want to take her home, add camber to the weather deck. Thats the arch across the beam of the ship.

You can make a series of arched beams that have a high point of say 9" in scale relative to the ends (wales).

Glue them to the underside.

"I am planning on bulding up the bulwarks as you did. "

My method:

The anchor cable looks out of place running to the base so scrapped that idea

I have two other kits, one is for spare parts. I will camber the deck on the second one. Again, thanks for taking the time to answer.

Hello Rick,

Glad to see another "Old Ironsides" build on the forum. I am looking forward to seeing you progress, hoping for some pics soon. 

A couple of thoughts on thickening the gunports.

1. The ship's sides are 21 inches thick at the gun deck. 24 inches at 1/96 scale works out to 1/4 inch, 21 inches is 7/32 inches at scale. I did not make my bulwarks quite that thick in my model, because I didn't think of it until it was too late, and you don't have to if you don't think it will look good, it's just food for thought. 

2. There is a fair amount of tumble-home on the ship (that is the inward slant of the sides of the ship as you go up from the waterline). If you mount the styrene strips you are adding flush to the bottom of the gunport, the sill will be slanting downward from the outside looking inward toward the inside of the ship. On my model I glued the styrene high rather than flush so some of the styrene was showing through the gunport, then used a small file to flatten it so the sill would be horizontal, flat and parallel to the gun deck. It's a fair amount of work, but I think well worth the effort. 

Cheers, 

Jose

Thanks, not a computer guru, just figured out how to load pix into the computer, now trying to get them into Fotki.

Rick Sr

Thanks, not a computer guru, just figured out how to load pix into the computer, now trying to get them into Fotki.

 

That little box should say "copied".

If not, highlight the line in the box and then use control C.

Move over to this site, open the reply window.

Click on the button that looks like a mountain with a moon over it.

usally whatever you have "copied" will already be pasted in there. If not, do so. Click "ok"

Managed to get 10 pics on Fotki. Still haven't figured out how to get them to Fine Scale.

Rick-Wayburn.yi5@fotki.com is album.

Not a computer guru, when I say I am lucky to be able to turn the darn thing on I am not kidding!  

After clicking share, it does say copied. But not where.

Rick,

You gave us your email address, not your picture site on Fotki.

Here is your site:

https://public.fotki.com/Rick-Wayburn/my-first-album/

Typically, you can highlight any text, right click, then click copy (or Ctrl-C).

To paste, you click in the box, right click and click paste (or Ctrl-V).

Good luck!  Pictures look good (last one out of focus though).

Bob

Here's one.

Once you hit copy, your computer holds it until you come back here.  Open the reply window.  Put the curser on a fresh line, then left click on the little mountain icon in the right side box on the third line of boxes at the top of the reply box.  That will open a box. Cursor should be blinking, just right click, will open an options window, then left click on copy.  Picture should then show up.  To add more photos, hit enter and repeat the process.

Good thing there is a parts kit. I broke a part yesterday. Putting in the officers quarters, fitting problems so a little extra work, thanks to that three piece deck layout.

gun deck and captain's quarters in. Before I do the gun ports, I will be putting in the anchor cables, messengers and anchor bits. It seems like Revell forgot about these things, probably figuring no one would see them.

Thanks for clueing me in on those items.

As far as I can ascertain, the gun ports were only closed when running, especially in foul weather .At the time being modeled, they were single piece, white on the bulwark side, in this case, British yellow on the outter portion with red sills. When not in use they were stored on the berth deck, handed down by hand akin to the water brigade lines of old when fighting fires.

Those old sailing vessels entertained a lot of heavy work. I doubt you had many chubby sailors back then, excepting COs.

Sanded down the flash on the gunports, painted red inside, and yellow outside. They are glued in place. Still have to tie them in. Next step is rigging in the guns, but before that I would like to model in the anchor bitts, cable and messengers. 

I have been unable to ascertain exactly where the anchor bitts would be positioned, on the Constitution. Common sense says in the area of the Hauser holes. After the messengers lines are in, I will finish the long guns, and add the supports (columns) for the spar deck. (I did not know you could clear those out for imminent action). I will make those out of the sprue material. On the hausers and bitts was anything used to prevent chaffing?

When you pin the guns to the deck and the channels and pin rails to the side, what gauge wire do you use? And what glue?

When I was a kid on our farm, I could never imagine what the "Poop" deck was, but it seemed most unsanitary to me. Now I see we have an "Orlop" deck. To a landlubber some of the nautical terms seem to be...outlandish? The next time I become peeved with my better half I think I will call her an "Orlop" just to see what happens!

"I have been unable to ascertain exactly where the anchor bitts would be positioned, on the Constitution"

They are on either side of the camboose (stove) in the foredeck area.  Lots of pictures online.  Also, you can order a CD from the Constitution Museum which gives you the plans in PDF format.  Been looking at those a LOT.

Bob

Rick Sr

Those old sailing vessels entertained a lot of heavy work. I doubt you had many chubby sailors back then, excepting COs.

 

One of the problems with the Revell sailing kits is the instructions. 

For instance they tell you to paint the bulkheads. What they don't say up front is that paint interferes with bonding on plastic models. And THAT will cause problems with pin rails, for instance.This should be a given but one doesn't always have their brains in gear! (That's me!)

I now use Playdough to fill in areas I want free of paint, such as the points where pin rails on the Constitution...or the Cutty or Themo...exist.

Plug these areas with play dough, make sure the seal is good, then go ahead and paint. When the paint is dry, unplug the play dough (or something similar.) This gives a proper glueing surface for plastic cement. (Wash the joint to make sure no oils might be in the play dough.)

It also helps the bond on a wood to plastic joint.

I've added cable bitts to the gun deck, waiting for the anchor rope from Syrene. Thanks for explaining all of that to me and for the pictures. That was a big help.

Just checking to see if I have this right. The guns are in on the gun deck, 15 per side. The anchor bits are at the bow, two uprights joined by a cross bar, with a brass band where the messenger goes around them, to help prevent chaffing.. The messenger goes on a round trip between the capstan to those anchor cable bits,, with several laps around the capstan for gripping power. The bits are tied to the anchor cable, looks like about every four feet, and the messenger hauls the cable in where it drops through "spurling holes" to the cable tier on the orlop deck.. As the cable drops into the spurling holes, the cable bits are untied and the messenger round trips continue until the anchor is stowed away.

I'm ready to model this, just checking to see if I have it right.

Thanks to Bill Morrison for helping me understand this process.

The gun ports are solid, British yellow on the outside to match the gun stripe, red on the inside with red sills.

I will model the shot storage next, around the hatches as in Model Shipways plans, then rig the guns in. 

I have lots of pictures on my build:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/178637.aspx?page=4

Go about 1/3 of the way down.  I have multiple shots of the gun deck, even highlighted the route of the messenger cable.  Close-ups of the front pivot, chock to guide the cable, and brass rings the rest of the way.  Hope that helps.

Bob

Thanks, will study those too. I used the kit guns but got HiS carriages. The brass guns from HiS are a bit off scale, and why brass when you paint them black? The carriages will be glued and pinned.

Your build is fantastic.

I got some leds from Evans to light the giun deck. My little 4 year old grand daughter has pulled the wiring out of the hull. So the third hull I have on hand will wired for the leds...too lazy to try to redo this hull.

Rick

The guns are in awaiting rigging. I put 15 in per side according to the Model Shipways plans and closed in the extra port.

Doing the anchor cables and messengers now. I added a capstan on the gun deck too, as well as the spar deck capstan that came with the kit. (Some photos I found show the gun deck capstan) Thanks for sharing your knowedge on those things.

I have the grog tub and water barrels. They will go in with the shot holders surrounding the hatches.

I found an article that says the sides of the water buckets and sponge buckets were not tapered, as the small base and wider top made them more prone to tipping. That's good news as I intend to make my own, and now a simple drill with proper size rod will do the job.

Looking at your bilge pumps too.

I still can not figure how to get the pics from Fotki to FSM. I have added five pix of the gun deck, showing installation of spurling holes just forward of main hatch for the anchor cables, messenger cable pulley forward as well as a support column for the bow sprit. I turned an old thread spool into a capstan for the gun deck.

Rick-wayburn.yi5@fotki.com if you want to peek.

I raided my wife's sewing kit and found a box of eyelets that made excellent spurling holes in the gun deck...drilled two proper size holes in the gun deck and dropped the anchor cable into them...still have to do the cable bits and messenger cables and messenger guides. The eyelets fit into the deck snugly but added a little ca for good measure.

I added a pillar support for the bow sprit and set a messenger cable pulley on that. I turned the pulley on my lathe and need to secure the pulley on the pillar.

I turned the gun deck capstan on the lathe and may just turn another one for the spar deck. After I paint the capstans I have an assortment of foil candy wrappers to use on them...these come in aluminum, copper, bronze, gold...they come in handy.

I started putting the ropes on the gun ports covers. Revell did not drill out all the holes on the gun port covers. Must be old molds...and is a pain, the old pin drill is getting a workout. And then to rig the 24 lbers on the gun deck.

Rick Sr

I still can not figure how to get the pics from Fotki to FSM. I have added five pix of the gun deck, showing installation of spurling holes just forward of main hatch for the anchor cables, messenger cable pulley forward as well as a support column for the bow sprit. I turned an old thread spool into a capstan for the gun deck.

Rick-wayburn.yi5@fotki.com if you want to peek.

I raided my wife's sewing kit and found a box of eyelets that made excellent spurling holes in the gun deck...drilled two proper size holes in the gun deck and dropped the anchor cable into them...still have to do the cable bits and messenger cables and messenger guides. The eyelets fit into the deck snugly but added a little ca for good measure.

I added a pillar support for the bow sprit and set a messenger cable pulley on that. I turned the pulley on my lathe and need to secure the pulley on the pillar.

I turned the gun deck capstan on the lathe and may just turn another one for the spar deck. After I paint the capstans I have an assortment of foil candy wrappers to use on them...these come in aluminum, copper, bronze, gold...they come in handy.

I started putting the ropes on the gun ports covers. Revell did not drill out all the holes on the gun port covers. Must be old molds...and is a pain, the old pin drill is getting a workout. And then to rig the 24 lbers on the gun deck.

 

The address you put in is an email address, not a web access.

is this it?

https://www.fotki.com/Rick-wayburn  ?

That is the page I went to.  Looks like a good build.  Only problem is that almost all of the images are blurry.  Maybe use a tripod.

Bob

Thanks, I'll try it again. I'm recovering from esophogeal cancer and the chemo and medications have given me shaky hands. It tends to make working on the Constitution a bit more difficult, same with the camera. The tripod is a good suggestion.(The fine line painting is tricky too.) The prognosis is very good, thankfully.

I have the second edition of "A Most Fortunate Ship", printed in 1997. What an excellent book. After reading the first chapters with the politics of the era involved, one can only come to the conclusion that...not much has changed!

I have a question. The spurling holes for the anchor cables are forward of the main hatch. Behind the main hatch are "chain pots". What are those for? I see that you have anchor cables going into those as well, I believe the auxiliary anchors?

By the way, that is one of the most fantastic models I have ever seen. That isn't a model of the Constitution, it is a replica.

I had planned on lighting the gun deck, not quite as well as you have done, until my little granddaughter pulled the wiring and leds out of it. It's a good thing we love our grandchildren!

And I can find no information or pictures of "stopper bills". Same question, what are those? I have a print out of nautical terms and neither is to be found.

I ordered copper clading for my third kit, it came in the mail yesterday. Yikes! That might take some time. I'll have to figure out what to use for glue. I also got the shot for the shot racks. 

I started the third kit, painting the hull. The hull is not together yet. Doing that while waiting for glue to dry and paint to dry on current build. I'll be using the copper clading on that build. On this one, I'll use Tamiya's masking tape to cover where the pin rails will go before painting the bulwarks.

I tried turning some spars. 

The plans I have show four chain pots around the main hatch area. The Constitution had no chains at the time being modelled.

I see four cables on your build. The Constitution carried two on the bow, but where did they put the spares and were the rodes used only one at a time with the messenger ? 

Rick Sr

The plans I have show four chain pots around the main hatch area. The Constitution had no chains at the time being modelled.

Quite true, but I figured they may have used the chains for other uses, so I just laid them tight against the bits.

I see four cables on your build. The Constitution carried two on the bow, but where did they put the spares and were the rodes used only one at a time with the messenger ? 

The other two were carried a bit farther aft, on the foremast channel.

And yes, if you were raising anchors, you could only do one at a time on the messenger cable.  Port and Starboard would also require you to turn the capstan in opposite directions.  I suppose you could try to pull two anchors from the same side simultaneously, but at 9,000 lbs per anchor, you would really be straining the messenger cable, the capstan and the crew!

I got out my trusty exacto knife, and a batch of toothpicks and made some tampions for the 24 lb guns. A little dab of red paint will finish them off. I still have to paint the wheels on six of the 24 lb carriages.

Ready to actually mount the 24 pdrs. I intend on chiseling off those plastic tabs on the bulwarks and making my own eyebolts for rigging the guns then planking the bulwarks. The thicker bulwarks should be better for taking the wire eyebolts.

The plans I have are from the 1930s rebuild. I ordered "The Anatomy of a Ship-Constitution" since they show 1812-1815 drawings.

These plans show S hooks for attaching the breaching lines to the bulwark eyebolts.

What gauge wire would you suggest, and would wrapping the wire around assorted finishing nails give good results? Would you solder the eyes shut?

I made tampions for the 24 pdrs using small toothpicks and painted them red. Two pics are on fotki.

Rick Sr

These plans show S hooks for attaching the breaching lines to the bulwark eyebolts.  What gauge wire would you suggest, and would wrapping the wire around assorted finishing nails give good results?

I typically use whatever solid copper wire I have lying around - I have so much leftover from my pinball days.  For small eyes and the deadeye strops and chains I use wire from Cat5E cable.  Just strip off the insulation and bend around pins or small nails.  For larger ones, such as the breach lines, use a slightly larger wire. BE SURE the hook or line will fit in it - if not, use a bigger pin or nail.  I mounted a bunch of eyes that took one hook just fine, but needed to get 2 hooks in there, and just couldn't do it.  Had to replace them all.  You could also use a pair of jewelers round pliers (I have 3 different ones with different tapers).  I went with looping and seizing the breach lines, then securing them to the eye with a pin.

Would you solder the eyes shut?

Since the guns will be glued down, I wouldn't waste time soldering.  There will be little to no tension to deform the eyes.  Anything under tension, such as deadeye strops and links, I always solder.

I made tampions for the 24 pdrs using small toothpicks and painted them red. Two pics are on fotki.

Cool idea.  Mine has the flashing cannons, so no tampions for me.

Bob

W0W! Don't forget to keep you gun ports open! You might have an "oops!" The Captain may get upset if you blow off a gun port!

The comings are too low. They have to be raised. I have the gratings to make new hatches (Model Expo). Otherwise the shot racks will seem out of place, level with the top of the comings. As long as this has to be done, I'll be bringing the hatches more in line with the plans. The kit is off again. So the ladders will have to be adjusted too. This kit is good but it seems the more you see, the more you have to adjust.

On the gun deck, the HiS carriages look just like the kit carriages. I am returning them. But I will keep the carronade carriages for the spar deck as they are more prominate and do look better.

Revell doesn't provide enough sailors so I will keep the sails furled. I have three kits so that means 60 sailors...enough to show rookies getting gun handling lessons by the old time "chiefs".  So there will be guns run in and guns run out.

 I managed to rewire my leds...chips, but there are 20 now instead of 26. I have to figure out hoe to get them into the ship, probably through the stern now.

This may be a "doofus" question.

I'm ready to mount the gun deck 24 pders. Also tie up the gun ports. I'm having a hard time tying the knots for the gun port lines. Interior under the bulwarks)

I have seen a semi transparent milky and translucent glue sometimes used to secure the back of charge cards to the letters they are mailed to you in. That stuff sticks pretty good.

Any one know what it's called and do you think a dab on the porthole line on the inside of the hull would work holding those lines?

Rick Sr

This may be a "doofus" question.

I'm ready to mount the gun deck 24 pders. Also tie up the gun ports. I'm having a hard time tying the knots for the gun port lines. Interior under the bulwarks)

I have seen a semi transparent milky and translucent glue sometimes used to secure the back of charge cards to the letters they are mailed to you in. That stuff sticks pretty good.

Any one know what it's called and do you think a dab on the porthole line on the inside of the hull would work holding those lines?

Well Rick Sr, it sounds like you made the same mistake that I made. If you are talking about tying the gun ropes to those little knobs protruding from the bulwarks between the guns, you should have shaved them off and replaced them with eyebolts!

My fix was to make a loop (overhead knot), slip it over the stud, and glue it with white glue; or any way you can. There is no tension on it, so it does not need much as long as it is secure!

If you are talking about the gun port cover, tie a stopper knot (reef knot will do), and run your line from outside the port and tie it to the adjacent line inside the bulwarks (give yourself lots of rope). You do not want that rope to come loose when you break the gun port off. I would not suggest glueing Them,

Rick Sr

Revell doesn't provide enough sailors so I will keep the sails furled. I have three kits so that means 60 sailors...enough to show rookies getting gun handling lessons by the old time "chiefs".  So there will be guns run in and guns run out.

Thanks. I've already knocked two off!

Here's a post from the late Dr. Tilley that I think of often, but just stumbled across this morning.

It's from 2015 within my Yacht America thread and addresses the issue of the accuracy of line lengths on a ship model.

My original premise was what to do with the bitter ends of sheets when the booms are close hauled to the centerline of the yacht, and secured to a cleat.

"Out of curiosity (and to while away an hour or so waiting for my clothes at the laundramat) I once took a calculator and added up the lengths given in Steel's Elements of Masting, Rigging, and Seamanship for the standing and running rigging of a 32-gun frigate. The figure I got was about fourteen miles. For my 1/128 Hancock, that would have translated into about 580 feet. No, I didn't do it.

Photographs of sailing ships confirm that tremendous amounts of rope were lying around all over the place - in coils and bundles that a sailor could grab quickly with no tangles. I remember seeing one photo of - I think - the Constitution in her latter days. All over the spar deck were just the sort of "cages" GM described.

I don't think I've ever seen a model that looked like the amount of rope on it was authentic. This is just one of several features of sailing ships that modelers over the centuries have just agreed to ignore. Another one: tautness of rigging. In a real ship, only a few of the running rigging lines, and even fewer of the standing rigging, are ever really tight. Donald McNarry, Phillip Reed, and a few other small-scale virtuosi have gotten brilliant results by using fine wire for the rigging. But thread just doesn't sag like full-size rope. Personally, I get too much pleasure out of running thread through blocks and deadeyes to forsake it in favor of wire.".

Priceless information.

Thanks, that is working out well.

I will show crew being trained on a 24 pder by the hatch where it will be visible and a carronade on the spar deck with 12 on the gundeck and eight on the carronade.

So two guns will be run in.

There's plenty of information online, including Youtubes of the gun being fired on the Constitution. They tend to be undermanned (womaned?) as they don't have a projectile so there's no recoil, and they hang outside to swab it and reload.

Some show thwem rolling a ball into the muzzle, but that one doesn't get fired.

I'm hoping to show gun rigging with one of the guns run in on both decks.  Right now I'm tying in the gun port lids. An hour on then up for a cup of tea then back down to resume, to give the eyes a break.

I seemto recall someone complaining the the slots on the brass pedestal mounts are sometimes a bit too narrow to fit the keel.

I found that too. This is nothing to worry about. I solved the problem with a dremel like tool, a 9901 dremel cutter bit and  a very light touch inside the slot. It's easier and more accurate than using a file. And it works. Remember to protect your eyes.

Luvspinball

I have lots of pictures on my build:

http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_subjects/f/7/t/178637.aspx?page=4

Go about 1/3 of the way down.  I have multiple shots of the gun deck, even highlighted the route of the messenger cable.  Close-ups of the front pivot, chock to guide the cable, and brass rings the rest of the way.  Hope that helps.

Bob

 

 

Shipwreck

 

 

Rick Sr

This may be a "doofus" question.

I'm ready to mount the gun deck 24 pders. Also tie up the gun ports. I'm having a hard time tying the knots for the gun port lines. Interior under the bulwarks)

I have seen a semi transparent milky and translucent glue sometimes used to secure the back of charge cards to the letters they are mailed to you in. That stuff sticks pretty good.

Any one know what it's called and do you think a dab on the porthole line on the inside of the hull would work holding those lines?

 

 

 

 

Well Rick Sr, it sounds like you made the same mistake that I made. If you are talking about tying the gun ropes to those little knobs protruding from the bulwarks between the guns, you should have shaved them off and replaced them with eyebolts!

My fix was to make a loop (overhead knot), slip it over the stud, and glue it with white glue; or any way you can. There is no tension on it, so it does not need much as long as it is secure!

If you are talking about the gun port cover, tie a stopper knot (reef knot will do), and run your line from outside the port and tie it to the adjacent line inside the bulwarks (give yourself lots of rope). You do not want that rope to come loose when you break the gun port off. I would not suggest glueing Them,

 

 

I chiselled the gun attachment points on the gun deck off and have brass eyebolts to secure the guns to. They look good, almost a shame to blacken them! I also sanded the gun carriage wheels so where they attach to the deck is a little flat to increase the adhesion area. I will be pinning those in place with wires into the deck.

I am using one eyebolt between two guns as the kit did with those little plastic bumps, but plan on seizing them at the eyebolt.

The "boss" has banished me to the cellar to get me out of her hair, so I am working both of the kits I have on hand. Good way to keep busy during the corona scare. What I am learning on the first kit will be applied to the second kit.

It is more than reasonable to install the gun tackle only on the big guns that are visible through the opening between the catwalks on the weather deck. The rest, running the breech rope in continuous fashion from one to the other is fine.

It wasn't so long ago that state of the art plastic warship models had the lower gun deck barrels stuck into sockets in recesses in otherwise solid gun ports.

GMorrison

It is more than reasonable to install the gun tackle only on the big guns that are visible through the opening between the catwalks on the weather deck. The rest, running the breech rope in continuous fashion from one to the other is fine.

It wasn't so long ago that state of the art plastic warship models had the lower gun deck barrels stuck into sockets in recesses in otherwise solid gun ports.

 

 

Gun port lids on, ready for the guns. Sanded the wheels for more adhesive area. 

Ok, would it be best to mount the guns first in your opinion or do gun deck work first, such as bitts, shot racks, capstan, messenger,etc?

I am planning on rigging some if not all of the guns in.

Were the water and grog barrels mounted right on the deck or on platforms?

It looks like the galley was raised on platforms. I would assume with a layer of stone or brick under. I also assume the Constitution had the Brodie stove, but in 1810 Lamb came out with an improved version ot the Brodie. So there might be a possibility that she had the Lamb version...which I doubt. The pic that is shown during the recent restoration is of the Lamb version.

I will have to build the stove if I want a full galley on the gun deck.

I came upon a pic of the Constitutions 24 pdrs. They showed the guns breached to what looked like iron railroad spikes for want of a better description that were not eyebolts in the bulkheads but mounted to the deck. They were heavily cast.

There was no date or period given.

I had never seen that before.

 It was a photograph and not a drawing or painting.

It was supposedly of the Constitution.

I had been too far along to thicken the bulwarks as I wanted on this build, access is not adequate. I have started the second hull, while working on the first one.  The second hull halves are painted but not joined yet as I plan to increase the bulkhead as you and Bill Morrison, and Bob  have done, before joining the halves together.  I may just clamp the hulls together with the gun deck in to be sure they are in the proper shape before gluing to the bulkheads.

The first hull is done to the gun deck, guns are in place and ready to rig.

I have leds from Evans design and had planned to light the gun deck on this first one but my little grand daughter got into it and pulled out the leds. I was able to solder 20 of them but lost six. So those will go into the second hull. 

I have been trying to turn the spars and upper masts on my lathe using the plastic ones as guides, but they are so flimsy that the results are unsatisfactory. I turned the water barrrel and will turn the grog scuttle this afternoon.

Bob, I started the second hull while working on the first one. My hull is mounted on an oak base using two brass pedestals.

I had run wiring for my led chips (3 amp) in through one of the pedestals, at the bow, planning to run from bow to stern, mounting them under the spar deck and running down to the Captian's quarters. But my little grand daughter got her hands on the Constitution and yanked some of the wiring out through the base, destroying six of them. I had to take the rest out and will use them on the second hull. (I'm just glad I had not glued in and rigged in the gun port covers!) She must have tugged awfully hard.

I am making my messenger bitts from sprue..They are in primer right now, but will be dark brown. Photo is on fotki. The gun deck capstan is ready for the messenger cable.

I have 20  3v chips for lighting and those will now go on the second hull.

Using cat5 to make eyebolts. Thanks for that tip. And you can tailor them to what you are using them for. I have chiseled all those little plastic bumps off the starboard side and will be using these eyebolts to breech the guns. If that works out well, I'll do the same for the port side.

I made up the messenger cable bits but will put them in place after the guns are done. I found a drawing done by a crew mmember of the Constitution around 1815 and he shows the messenger bits as square posts. Since I used sprue, mine will be round.

I'll also put the gun deck capstan in after breeching and rigging is done.

When under way, were the capstand posts for turning left in place or stored? How about when in port?

You can see on the images of the Constitution from the museum that the capstan arms were stored overhead between the beams when not in use.  Similarly they stowed hatch covers there as well.  Left mine out on the gun deck.  Very unlikely they would have been left in during battle, as they block flow from one side of the deck to the other.  Really just used to haul heavy stuff, like dropping boats below decks, hauling anchors, etc.

Glad the Cat5 idea worked for you. 

Bob

There are actually two sets on each side.  I assume the second set is for the Spar deck.

Bob

Rick Sr

I found a drawing done by a crew mmember of the Constitution around 1815 and he shows the messenger bits as square posts. Since I used sprue, mine will be round.

Bill, you really learn things from these models. For instance, if you are trying to make your own eyebolts, it's best to relax with a tea instead of a Guiness or two if you expect any degree of success!

So true.  I'm not a fan of the old whip out the old cc and stock up on AM stuff either.

And I don't much like PE eyebolts. Quite a while back I found a source, I think Jotika, that sold bags of nice ones made out of round copper wire.

Well, I made one eyebolt, then tried to run the breeching line through it...too small. glad I only did one and dry fitted it!

The second one fits. the nice thing is since one size doesn' fit all, they can be custom sized.

The trick is to get them all to be the same siz efor the breech. this will take a little pracice.

I am loading them onto the breeching line as I make them to be sure they fit. I seem to be getting about 60% to fit. I'm sure the other 40% can be used somewhere.

My better half says she can hear me talking to myself, as I make these eyebolts. 

I've been wrapping these little wires around small nails, so there are two tails, then twisting the tails tight with my small needle nose pliers. That gives me a tight eyebolt, and is easier to do. I marked the nails for placing the wire around them with a black magic marker and am getting more consistency that way. Then I add a spot of glue. 

Unlike the smooth shafts you get from commercial eyebolts, like from Model Expo, these twisted shafts seem to hold better in plastic when glued in place.

After I finish mounting the guns on the gun deck, I think I'll try making some "s" fasteners and strops.

When I want consistency, I wrap a piece of masking tape around the nail, pin or jeweler's pliers a couple of times. Make your loop, slide down to the tape, twist it tight, repeat.  Works a bit better than a line drawn with a marker.  And you can peel off the tape and reuse the nail, pin or pliers.  Just my 2 cents.

Bob

Rick, if you don't have it...there's a nice little book called "The Neophyte Shipmodeller's Jackstay"., by Geo. Campbell.  Model Shipways published it and cheap copies are easy to come across.

Campbell can draw like Pavarotti could sing, and it's full of really neat little drawings of all sorts of details. Recommended.

If interested, a Brodie galley stove is available in 1/96 scale.  It may save you some work.

Just click on the link at bottom to see it in the catalog, and more for Revell's Constitution.

Thanks. What is the link?

Thanks Bill, looking for it now. As a die in the wool landlubber, I'm surprised I even know what port and starboard are!

Thanks, that is one item I may purchase. They have a lot of things for the Constitution. It's looking like about 3-4 more months to finish this one. Doing two now, using what's learned on this one to do the second.

After these two are done I'm going after that 1/200 Titantic! 

Thanks, I was wondering what those were.

While doing the eyebolts, I diversified a little for relief, and have assembled the lower three masts and painted them british yellow, same as the gun stripe. The sprit too.

Cross trees later, after the blocks are on them before attaching to the mast.

Thanks, that sounds good. 

The wire in the cat 5 seems to be 20 or 24 gauge copper. Would brass be better? Is that good enough for wiring the guns into the gun deck?

I had some cat 5 on hand from wiring the upstairs for pcs. Some was stranded, not good for the Constitution and some was solid wire.

I am going to use wire for the footropes on the spars too.

Just ordered a copy from Model Expo.

Guns are in, pinned and glued to the deck. What a nuisance that was!

Got it!!!

Started hull #3, # 2 being used for spare parts, while working hull #1. Breeching lines going slow on #1.

#3 hull painted but not joined.

I had planned to light #1with 3w led chips untill my little grand daughter pulled the wiring out from under the hull. Since I drilled through the mounting pedestals to install the wiring into the hull, can not figure how to reinstall the darn wiring. So I will put most effort into the spar deck, and put the lighting into #3. Oh, and now I lock the door to my shop!

Can you attach a wire to each end of each pedestal? LED system is DC, right? So you can make the pedestals plus/ minus terminals. 

That's right! Never thought of that! Thanks.

Before you glue the hull halves together on the new one, tie a knot in the wiring harness or wires running into the hull, leaving enough slack so that if the wires are ever tugged or pulled, they won't come out. Knot should be inside the hull and large enough so that it can't get out the hole drilled for the wires.  I do this on all my wired builds.  Never know when you will accidentally pull on them.  I also use a plug at the base instead of directly soldering the leads from the model.  Again, the plug will come undone and not all your hard work.

Bob

Words of wisdom, Bob. Words of wisdom.

Now that is a great piece of information. Thanks! I did that on my n scale RR. Must have forgotten about it on the Constitution. I restore antique lamps and always do that on the lamps. As the better half says, "Duhhhhhh!"

Had to take a break from the guns so working the lower masts right now....and making eyebolts.

I got it!

I now have two hulls to do. My daughter in law pleaded with me to give one hull to my son.

Anything to promote family peace!

I kept the 3rd hull. 

Been reading The Neophyte Shipmodeller's Jackstay, and making eyebolts and rings. I am using 24 gauge copper solid wire for the fittings.

I cut the tails on my eyebolts so I can screw them into the hull without protruding on the outter hull, and use the slow set CA for extra safety. I drill a slightly undersize hole and screw them in. I am breeching the gun deck guns now. Put a photo of one of my eyebolts on Fotki.

Here is a question. I have some monofilament laying around. What do you think of using that for spar rigging? I do have Syrene's black and tan in .035, .025, .018 and .012. That is some good stuff!

I have been breeching the guns on the gun deck. I made my own eyelets after finding that the directions said to use the eyebolts aft to start your breeching lines, using the heavy line...that did not fit through those eyebolts.

The homemade ones are better.

Started hull number 3 (now 2) by washing and priming the outer hull. I'll join the hull halves together after prepping it more using ideas from Bob, BM and Jose.

I cut all those little bobbins off that are used for the breeching lines, and began to insert the home made copper eyebolts made before. Thanks to Luvspinball and Bill Morrison for those ideas.

I covered up the pin rail glue areas to keep paint out of them and drilled out the hull for the pin rail supporting wies.

Still breeching guns on the gun deck.

The boss insisted that if I could put so much time into "those toys", at least I could do something for the yard. So thanks to the Connie's, we now have a new fire pit in the back yard.

You should consider making the hull thicker, at least on the gun deck. It adds a lot to the model.

I know, that's one reason I cut those little bobbins off, it will make building up the bulwarks simpler. I printed pics of your Victory to use as a guide to do the bulwarks. Thanks for the info and ideas.

On Fotki. I know it isn't a pic of the Connie build...still putting breech lines on the first hull gun deck...but it is one of the projects done to keep the little lady happy so I can continue with the ship builds. In that respect, it's related to the Connie build.

I am using my copper eyebolts to mount the 24 pounders, instead of running a line from the eyebolt in the captains quarters around each gun then tying it off at the bow, each breeching line is separate. I ran out of bluing agent so some of my eyebolts are gun blue and some are plain copper. Seizing the guns separately is time consuming. It does look better and the practice seizing should come in handy while rigging.

I hope you are all well and enjoying your hobby. Stay well and God bless.

My phone caught on fire a bit over a week ago. Saving for a new one. They got expensive. Does anyone know if the Jitterbugs are good to use with Fotki?

Mine went through a washer/ dryer cycle. Didn't come out well.

I got a nice iPhone 7+ for about $ 500.

Ouch Bill!

Mine started smoking then flamed up. Glad it wasn't in my pocket! It's been acting up for about a month before burning up.

The guns are mounted on the gun deck and breeched. The water barrels are in place,, the stove and anchor lines are finished, the gun deck capstan is in place, all is ready for the spar deck. and there in lies the "oops!"

We have a fit problem. The hull is spread out more than it seems it should be and the deck doesn't quite line up properly. The masts fit properly (so far, nothing is glued in place). It looks like some slow setting crazy glue might be called for to secure the hull and deck.

Has anyone else run into this problem and how was it handled?

Got another phone, returned, tried a pic on Fotki.

I have the gun deck finished and am trial fitting the spar deck. I can see the wisdom of not putting too much effort into the gun deck. After the spar deck is on you can see very little of the gun deck.It seeems that time would be better spent on the spar deck and on the rigging.

The spar deck aft section is slightly warped, and the hull seems to be bowed out from amidships to aft. I am thinking about this problem now. (there is a lot of resultant smoke escaping form my ears.)

I got a refurbed phone so am back in business with Fotki, haven't added much yet, deleted all the plans shown as not necessary.

Also ordered a pair of flush cutter nips for taking the copper pins off the outside of the hull that tha guns are rigged to, those diy eyebolts.

And am making a jig to make the rat lines on.

Might I comment on the rat lines?

They are tied to shrouds that are installed in a particular fashion.

Starting at the forward lanyard/ deadeye, the shroud is looped around the deadeye and seized to itself.

Then the shroud goes up through the "lubber hole" in the top, goes around the top of the mast (not around the topmast as well), crosses the crosstress on the far side, goes back down through the top and is seized to the next deadeye back on the same side.

Following that, starting on the other side, the shroud again comes up from the forward deadeye/ lanyard assembly, loops around the mast in the opposite direction and neatly stacks on top of the first shroud, comes down on the same side it began on, and is seized off.

Back and forth. Only if there are an odd number of deadeyes on each side does a shroud (the last or rearmost) shroud come up from one side of the ship and go back down the other.

The Revell kit has the big advantage of the way that the deadeye/ lanyard assemblies are put together provides a true groove around the upper one, allowing line to be wrapped around it.

I can't imagine how that could be preconstructed on the bench, and it's actually not at all hard to do on the ship model.

The footropes frankly can be ommited and it's not a big loss, compared to a messy installation.

Or, they can be tied on, using a card with correctly spaced parallel lines on it tucked in behind the shrouds. Or threaded through the shrouds with a needle (never tried it).

Or tied at each end and glued in the middle.

I haven't had the opportunity to do this in a few years, but once you get going you'll be able to do a set in an hour or two. And it gets easier as you go up.

I've also seen models with thin wire used for the footropes, but that's beyond my abilities. It does allow for a nice little sag to be added to each segment.

Bill

Great description, GM.  Only way a jig works is if you leave off the bottom few rows of ratlines and add them after you get the shrouds all in place.  And you have to leave the rest of the mast pieces off.  If mast is fully assembled, you have to do it as GM stated.

Thanks, Bill. I'm also rereading "Jackstay", and hopefully can get the spar deck in place.

Having problems with the spar deck. The hull seems to be bowed out from amidships to the transom. The glues I have tried do not seem to be able to hold the spar deck in place against this tension, even super glue. I used the thin super glue. Have not tried epoxy yet.

I am clamping the hull by running 12 gauge copper wire under the hull and up the sides and twisting it to pull the hull tight between every other gunport. I let the glue dry for 24 hours. Other than this the spar deck fits very well when clamps are on it.

I do have notes on this build with suggestions to do some things differently on the second hull I have. Time for another Guiness!

The Scale Deck is laid down on the Constitution. The mizzen mast is problematic as it leans noticeably towards the stern.

Pic on Fotki. The fore and main masts line up well.

Several of the books and articles I have read so far on the Constitution indicate a "fighting trim" set of sails when she was engaged. In the paintings I have seen of her, when engaged, she does not seem to any have furled sails on her yards, so I assume those not part of the fighting trim were stowed below. And she shows far fewer sails while engaged, as do her British opponents.

One of the articles claims that the gun port covers were stowed on the orlop deck instead of the gun deck to keep them out of the way, and that they were passed down the line, much like the water buckets in the old fire brigades of way back when, a process that went much faster than one would expect. (?)

(My phone literally caught on fire, which is why there are few pictures on fotki, but that has been remedied. Just glaed it wasn't in my pocket at the time).

I have ordered some silkspan and am thinking of having her in fighting trim since on the kit her guns are run out, making a fighting trim seem more feasible.

The masts are inserted but not glued in, as a trial fit. (Scale Deck is down on the spar deck.) The fore mast is fine, the main mast needs tweaking, but the mizzen mast needs some work, It leans back towards the stern.

I'm waiting for the spar deck carriages from HiS as well as the silkspan. I scratchbuilt a Brodie stove and galley and water caskets for the gun deck, but with the spar deck on you can't see them. 

Those pin rails and belay pins that came with the kit suck, to be blunt. Also I painted the bulwarks a dark green while assembling the hull and gun deck, big mistake as the plastic pinrails and glue don't mix well with paint. Time for some basswood. Hope CA works!

I put one of the kit sailors on the spar deck to see how the camboose chimney would look. It's shorter than the sailor. So smoke would hit the sailors smack in the middle of their faces. Rebuilding with sprue to raise the chimney higher.

What size would any of you recommend for the belaying pins on the pin rails?

Any recommendations on whether to rig the stays first or the shrouds?

The channels leave a lot to be desired too.

Finally got my 6mm belay pins to redo the rails, still waiting to receive HiS carriages for the spar deck carronades. Originally I ordered 8mm belay pins but they looked a little out of scale for this kit. So I ordered the blackened brass 6mm pins. These are nice, they should look good. And they are little! Working on them now.

From studying the rigging plans, it looks like not all the belay pins will be used. What is your opinion on not building them in?

While waiting I started readying the #2 hull.

Some of the "pins" are actually rectangular, and not the round standard belay pins.  Like putting a square peg in a round hole!  

Bob

Finally got my 6mm brass belaying pins (blackened) so I can start redoing the pin rails. I originally ordered 8mm pins but they seemed a little large for this kit.The ones that came with the kit have a tendency towards breaking.The HiS gun carriages won't be here till the end of August, seems to be a supplier problem. The spar deck has been on hold waiting for the pins and carriages.

HiS is making a set of furled sails to use on the Constitution.. I saw some he made for the Cutty Sark and they looked pretty good.

The next area that seems to need improvement is the channels, but the spar deck first.

I have started the second hull while waiting, but will not put as much effort into the gun deck as the spar deck hides everything. Seem to recall you mentioning that.

I went back to the belay pins and fortunately they are round...lucked out there, I was not aware they might not be round. Thanks for the warning.

The HiS carriages will not be here till the end of August, seems to be a supplier problem.

HiS will also make a set of furled sails fot the Constitution. I was not aware that he could do that. I saw some he made for the Cutty Sark and they looked pretty good...not to mention all the work that will save.

Got the carronade carriages from HiS and started them. A lot nicer than the kit carriages. I the kit carriages seem to be from a later overhaul. The HiS carriages look like what she carried in 1808 to about 1835.

Having trouble downloading pics to Fotki. 

Been working on the belay pins.

The HiS gun carriages are done. I  mixed the color myself to try to match what I saw online. Working on the pin rails now..The new belay pins are fine, but drilling the mounting holes for them in a straight line is a bit tricky. thinking of getting a mini drill press.

what gauge wire would you suggest using to pin the pin rails to the bulwarks?

Not as much about the gauge as it is the stiffness of the wire.  You don't want the pinrails to bend up or worse - pull out - once you start adding lines to them.  I used jewelry pins, which are extremely stiff but very tiny.  Drilled through the hull and into the pinrails while they were in place.  Made sure the wire/pin went through the hull and rail.  Pushed them flush with pinrail and left sticking out of hull until they dried (used CA glue).  Then snipped them flush with hull and touched up paint.  Can't even tell they are there.

Bob

Thanks for that. I had some 24 gauge copper but it felt too soft. The pin rails are a little out of scale compared to the kit rails, they are slightly wider than the originals. Getting the belay pin holes in a straight line on the pin rails is proving problematic so far. Those are lined up in a zig zag fashion. I'll pick up some jewelers pins.

I am adding the wheels to the HiS carronade carriages, and will be posting a before and after photo of the spar deck on Fotki when finished. I mixed the color for the carriages, trying to match a color I saw online. I think it's off but am done fooling with it.

I was showing my wife the photos of your build. She saw them and just said, "WOW!!!"

thanks for the compliment Rick.  Keep at it.  You're doing great.

Bob

Posted some not so sharp pics on Fotki of the gun carriages from HiS, just one assembled. I saw the color for the carriages on a Connie site and mixed my own to try to match it. It's sort of close. Now I'll complete the guns and post a pic of the spar deck with the kit carriages and the HiS carriages. Putting those wheels on was trying.

And working on the pin rails too.

Started to do the pin rails, got 8 of the 7 piners ready to drill for the belay pins. Been slow working on this, putting a bathroom in the basement while working the Connie.

Got the wheels and quoins on the HiS gun carriages, will fotki pics of those soon.

You vcan go cross eyed with this stuff!

when drilling holes for the belay pins should the holes be close to the bulwark or closer to the outer edge of the pin rail?

Posted more pics on fotki, doing pin rails and finishing spar deck gun carriages. Any suggestions?

Managed to get pics of my own Connie in a file on my laptop with help from my son. How do they get transferred to here?