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trumpeter 1/200 missouri and full pontos .

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  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Thursday, June 10, 2021 3:06 PM

steve5
it look's like a mooring point , but where does the rope or chain connect to to on the deck .

Ought to be a deck opening about 45º  back and up.

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Thursday, June 10, 2021 11:46 AM

Hi, HooYah!

     If you go to ship sites You'll see a lot of ships with a Fair-Lead, at the bow. It's closed at the top and it is used for both Towing and originally a minsweeping coil to be dropped. They also are very handy for the Tow purpose as they allow very large Hawsers in.

    The Fairleads are sometimes open at the top to allow line to be dropped in while mooring as it's easier to handle for the run to the warping engine or winch!Then when done the lines are quickly wrapped around the bitts for holding and locking the loops to allow the lines to hold and flex when the ship moves. 

      Oh. as far as the shafts are concerned( The screws too.) After sitting, for in some cases years they get fouled with underwater growth. They do in some cases have divers and small barges with High pressure water and Air to Blow them off occassionally. The municipalities nearby don't like that. It fouls the water around the Yacht Club Marinas, Poor things!

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Thursday, June 10, 2021 9:26 AM

Commonly referred to as the bullnose (because a lot of ships actually have two holes there, like nostrils), the center opening is for the minesweeping chain we were discussing earlier, and for mooring and towing.

 

I was involved in towing Missouri from Bremerton, down to Long Beach for reactivation back in the 1980's. Here we are picking up the tow out in the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Thursday, June 10, 2021 3:55 AM

getting back on subject guy's , I could be a while posting again , the ones on the left 50 of on the right 30 of , with lots of parts , see you then .

I did notice their was a lip around the edge of the forward gun station  , so I added some styrene , could anyone tell me what the middle hole is for . it look's like a mooring point , but where does the rope or chain  connect to to on the deck .

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Wednesday, June 9, 2021 7:04 PM

CapnMac, I'm quite aware of that sort of stuff as back in 1990-91, I was one of the guys who scheduled the entire Pacific fleet for the waterborne hull cleaning program and ran the contractors when they were scheduled to clean ships in Long Beach and the Bay area.

I specifically was the guy who maintained the files as to the ship, paint type, last cleaning, schedule for next cleaning, and whether it would be a full or interim clean.

Yeah, been there, done that, goin back for more!!!

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, June 9, 2021 5:31 PM

HooYah Deep Sea
since they are just as susceptible to fouling as the rest of the hull

Other than when turning, which tends to prevent accumulation of fouling.

There are photos of a number of large ships with "bare" shafts--just not with any consistency.  With the right mill finish and perhaps a lacquer finish, the metal would still look "metalic" and not hull bottom color.

It's an endless debate for modelers, and really needs reasonably good photos.  And people disinclined to pointless debate (wait, I said modelers, right?)

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Tuesday, June 8, 2021 9:03 PM

Thanks Skipper!

Now, as to the shafts .  .  . since they are just as susceptible to fouling as the rest of the hull, they should be painted, normally the same anti-foul paint as the underwater hull .  .  . with the exception of right before and right after they come in and out of the stern tube, any intermediate struts, and the strut bearing. All of which are miniscule when playing in 1/200 or smaller.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Tuesday, June 8, 2021 8:39 PM

steve5
is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

Yes.  You cannot, say, just use 10mm wide tape to make the stripe, as the top and bottom are meant to be level of the waterline.

And, an 8' boot might be 2 feet below the Load Water line, and 6' above (to account for all the weight of ammo, fuel, prvisions ,and the like, that are to be expended on cruise).

Now, just wait until we all get into the debate about whether the exposed shafts were bare metal or painted hull bottom color Smile

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Monday, June 7, 2021 2:06 PM

Steve, that taper you are seeing is just the watermark on the boot topping. The boot topping is the same height all the way around the hull VISUALLY. So, if you could pick up the hull to where it is horizontal to your view, the boot topping would appear the same height or thickness all the way around. Now with that in mind, any place where the hull is angled, like back near the stern, above the screws, the stripe will be a bit wider because of the angle. That is what CapnMac was referring to.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    August 2014
  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Monday, June 7, 2021 10:43 AM

Steve-. If I can suggest...block up the hull so its level, and you can go completely around it.  Mark your boot upper and lower lines.  Take a sharp pencil and make some kind of jig to hold at those two heights.  Go completely around, and there is your masking line for the boot.

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Michigan
Posted by Straycat1911 on Monday, June 7, 2021 4:11 AM

steve5

is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

I've shaved the bulb down as far as I can really go , if it's not 100% accruate I'm sorry , but I'm pretty happy with it , as it was my first go at milliput , which was very old and didn't want to mix too well .

 

Looks good to me. 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Monday, June 7, 2021 1:35 AM

is this what you mean capn , the boot stripe tapers down at the aft end .

I've shaved the bulb down as far as I can really go , if it's not 100% accruate I'm sorry , but I'm pretty happy with it , as it was my first go at milliput , which was very old and didn't want to mix too well .

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, June 6, 2021 6:33 PM

HooYah Deep Sea
And no, it wasn't in my issued copy of the Bluejackets Manual.

It's in none of the five copies I have, which go back to '38.

I'm now looking for a manual on Minesweeping, as I know at least on of my references covers capitol ship streaming, and points out all the differences from dedicated Minesweeper operations.

And those are distinctly different operations.

And the MS ships towed the sweeps, so the whole vessel was in front of the sweep wires.

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Sunday, June 6, 2021 6:27 PM

steve5
I didn't realise how wide the boot stripe was

WWII used a wider stripe than in peactime, and with some variations with each of the ships presently, too.

From photos, Missouri appears to have the current skinniest, 4 or 5 feet.
From having been next to her, Wisconsin is showing 10-12 feet (which is near the WWII dimension).

Oh, and when you get under the counter at the stern, the stripe remains horizontal, parallel to the keel, and not a constant width.  This can be tricky masking and wants careful marking of the waterlines.

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Sunday, June 6, 2021 9:44 AM

Yes, and CapnMac, that loop casting welded at the bottom of the hull is not for the paravane gear, it's there so you can haul in boat up on to the trailer .  .  . (Doesn't everyone trailer their battleship during the off season?) Slip space at the marina is so expensive these days!!

Thanks for the sweeping notes, good to know stuff. And no, it wasn't in my issued copy of the Bluejackets Manual.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Michigan
Posted by Straycat1911 on Sunday, June 6, 2021 7:15 AM

HooYah Deep Sea

Well, some ships are more motivated than others .  .  .

No actually, you should note that that chain is considerably smaller than the anchor chains, and is there for streaming paravanes (mine sweeping). As the paravanes swing out because of their 'wings' , the chain weight keeps them from pulling the cable out of the water. Without the cable in the water, you don't catch mines, you find them when they detonate against the hull, which is not a recommended practice.

 

 

"Not a recommended practice".  Yeah, I can see the wisdom in that. Lol!

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Saturday, June 5, 2021 10:56 PM

thankyou for that capn , i learn a lot from you mate . I have started shaving excess milliput from the bulb , as others have suggested , i can only go so far as I put a ball to the bow , to start me off . live and learn I will be better next time .

thanks for the colour shot too , I didn't realise how wide the boot stripe was , it will come in handy .

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Saturday, June 5, 2021 5:42 PM

steve5

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

I believe those are "drag wings" to slow the ship once the forefoot hits the water to keep her from skeedaddling out once off the launching ways.

The suspended bundles of chains pay out to also brake the speed built up as 881 feet of hull trundle off the ways.

Dang it. No one has published online Page 450 of the 1943 Blueacket's Manual, which shows the skeg version.  Or, Page 64 of Seamanship, NavPers 16118-B, 1953 (which has an aentire section on streaming paravanes).  Very odd that the rigging does not appear in later BJM.

The Skeg exists to have a loop of chain, one on either side of the bow.  There's an eye in that chain, to which the paravane streaming line is shackled onto.  The shain is used to haul the streaming wire down to the level of the skeg.  The chain is then used to hoist the shackle back up to deck level for recovery.  (all of this applies only to capitol ships, mine sweepers stream the stern with weasles and otters to pull the wire down to required depth).

Found this photo:

Paravane cable would be one of the things that would have been stowed in a reel on the foredeck, possibly under a canvas cover.

Oh, and I found this, too:

Once the paravanes were discontinuted (in the late 50s) the chains and bow rigging were unshipped.  Only the skeg, welded to the bow remained.

 

 

  • Member since
    April 2005
Posted by ddp59 on Saturday, June 5, 2021 9:47 AM

steve5, why are you doing that as that as not a New Mexico class battleship? download this link as is a set of plans for that ship. BB-63 - USS Missouri - Booklet of General Plans, 1950, Iowa Class https://maritime.org/doc/plans/bb63.pdf

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Saturday, June 5, 2021 9:12 AM

You've got the width looking good, but there's a bit too much toe. In profile, the bow below the waterline should be near verticle. Check out the photo of Iowa's bow, which should be identical.

And a drawing of Missouri,

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Saturday, June 5, 2021 4:19 AM

here we go , didn't think I was much of  a sculptor , this is as good as I can do . will hit it with some primer see what needs to be fixed . at least it has a bulbous nose now , still have to fix the little ring down below , that should be easy enough , get back to you soon .

 

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Thursday, June 3, 2021 1:01 PM

Well, some ships are more motivated than others .  .  .

No actually, you should note that that chain is considerably smaller than the anchor chains, and is there for streaming paravanes (mine sweeping). As the paravanes swing out because of their 'wings' , the chain weight keeps them from pulling the cable out of the water. Without the cable in the water, you don't catch mines, you find them when they detonate against the hull, which is not a recommended practice.

 

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Michigan
Posted by Straycat1911 on Thursday, June 3, 2021 12:48 PM

HooYah Deep Sea

The side things are part of the build / launch cradle.

As for biulding your own bulbous bow, check out this shot as it shows the extend of the hull lines from the bulb on back. As you can see, it does not narrow again aft of the bow.

 

Is the Navy that paranoid about the ship moving without permmission that they drop anchor in dry dock? LOLOLOL! 

  • Member since
    August 2014
  • From: Willamette Valley, Oregon
Posted by goldhammer on Thursday, June 3, 2021 12:06 PM

Looks like they cut an opening in the bulb to gain access for some reason.  Note the top of the "wing", looks like it penetrates the hull, but still open just above.

  • Member since
    August 2019
  • From: Central Oregon
Posted by HooYah Deep Sea on Thursday, June 3, 2021 12:05 PM

The side things are part of the build / launch cradle.

As for biulding your own bulbous bow, check out this shot as it shows the extend of the hull lines from the bulb on back. As you can see, it does not narrow again aft of the bow.

"Why do I do this? Because the money's good, the scenery changes and they let me use explosives, okay?"

  • Member since
    November 2009
  • From: Twin Cities of Minnesota
Posted by Don Stauffer on Thursday, June 3, 2021 10:50 AM

Could those be tool buckets to raise and lower tools and such? 

Don Stauffer in Minnesota

  • Member since
    August 2013
  • From: Michigan
Posted by Straycat1911 on Thursday, June 3, 2021 6:52 AM

steve5

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

 

No clue as to it's purpose but it looks like a cradle of some kind to me. 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Wednesday, June 2, 2021 10:16 PM

joined the bow section onto the hull , had to use a bit of bog , will know how good a job I did after primer .

 

  • Member since
    July 2013
Posted by steve5 on Wednesday, June 2, 2021 10:10 PM

thankyou capn , for the full explaination of how the bulb works . and for the link , I watched him do the 35' admirals boat , he has some serious skills . I've subscribed to him as well . 

I found a pic of the bulbous nose on the missouri , could you explain to me what those side fenders , sticking out of it are for please , sort of toying with the idea making my own bulb , skills permitting of course .

 

  • Member since
    November 2005
  • From: Formerly Bryan, now Arlington, Texas
Posted by CapnMac82 on Wednesday, June 2, 2021 6:06 PM

steve5
but I will be looking up steve , it seem's every second name on the ship site is a steve . Geeked often wondered what the bulb was for , now I know .

Here's Steve (Model Shed) link:  https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfkPhaBJc0F6h5F1FzAM32Q

He's going to build a 1/144 Flower after Hood is complete.

 

The bow bulb seems goofy until the logic is explained.  With a sharp "V" taper on the bow, there's not a lot of area above the water to resist the push down as the bow pitches forward.

As the pitch down becomes a pitch up there's also very little there to resist that movement.  (Now in plan view, we want sharpenss to cut through the water, so narrow is a requirement.)

The bulb creats a reservoir of boutancy to offset all the skinniness.  Which works even when submerged (physics of liquids can be fascianting).  Spped through the water is not that great an issue for the effect, either--something they did not know in 1940.

The modern fashion is to have larger torpedo-round bow bulbs.  Part of that is to create a ring compression effect which tends to hold the forefoot level through the sea.  There are some longer more "drop tank" shaped bulbs out there too--those are specifically to lengthen the waterline which improves the maximum possible speed in the water (there's most of a semester on the physics of waterline length to speed rations).

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