New Iwata, new problems

keilau wrote:

There is a reason that "copycat" of the Omni and Vega airbrushes had become one of the most popular brand of airbrush.

Yes, it's called marketing.

MikeV wrote:

keilau wrote: There is a reason that "copycat" of the Omni and Vega airbrushes had become one of the most popular brand of airbrush. Yes, it's called marketing.

I'm not to say that marketing is irrelevant, but it is not the whole story. No marketing in the world can save you, if your product is bad. No marketing in the world is better than a good product.

I have no experience with Iwata, but they would be wise to look out for the stuff Harder & Steenbeck is shipping these days. H&G would be very hard to beat on both user friendliness and build quality. Don't be surprised if both Iwata and other high-end brands start losing significant market shares to H&G within the next year or two.  

DoC 

Dr. Coffee wrote:

Don Wheeler wrote:  keilau wrote: There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle. This concern with the materials used to make airbrush components seems silly to me.  Who cares as long as the parts function as they should?  The nozzles and needles we are talking about here are machined to very fine tolerences.  I wouldn't be surprised if these 'superalloys' are the reason why the manufacturers are able to consitently produce nozzles that stay within specs. One would assume that parts made from 'superalloys' might be more resistant to wear and tear, meaning that such parts last longer than other parts, given the same conditions of use. In both cases the choise of alloys would be a direct contributing reason why the airbrush works as well as it does, and lasts as long as it does. DoC

The choice of materials AND the manufacturing process bear directly relation to the functioning and durability of an AB. You need to use very hard alloy to make the precision nozzle which could be expensive. Cheaper alloy will not last as long. The challenge is how to use the best alloy and keep the cost down. It should be very obvious to any users.

I have not used airbrush long enough to wear any one out yet. When I visit airbrush and hobby forums (airbrushforum.com, trains.com, howtoairbrush.com etc.), I found that split nozzle and bent needle are the most common problem with heavy AB usage. There were a common theme that the users switched to certain brand because they found the need to replace nozzle is much less and the needle is much less lightly to bend.

Yes, it is important that the "parts function as they should". But the user also cares how long the parts function as they should. All users care about how well the AB works. Some curious type wants to know how the manufacturer does it and some don't care. I do not call those who do to be "silly". I hope that the respect will be accord to those who do want to know the details.

If anyone doesn't believe the use of superalloy in airbrush nozzle makes any difference, he is entitled to his opinion.

keilau wrote:

Dr. Coffee wrote:  Don Wheeler wrote:  keilau wrote: There are many nickel alloys. But the superalloy is a different class of material. I will be very interested if Badger can identify the superalloy that they use in their AB nozzle. This concern with the materials used to make airbrush components seems silly to me.  Who cares as long as the parts function as they should?  The nozzles and needles we are talking about here are machined to very fine tolerences.  I wouldn't be surprised if these 'superalloys' are the reason why the manufacturers are able to consitently produce nozzles that stay within specs. One would assume that parts made from 'superalloys' might be more resistant to wear and tear, meaning that such parts last longer than other parts, given the same conditions of use. In both cases the choise of alloys would be a direct contributing reason why the airbrush works as well as it does, and lasts as long as it does. DoC The choice of materials AND the manufacturing process bear directly relation to the functioning and durability of an AB. You need to use very hard alloy to make the precision nozzle which could be expensive. Cheaper alloy will not last as long. The challenge is how to use the best alloy and keep the cost down. It should be very obvious to any users. I have not used airbrush long enough to wear any one out yet. When I visit airbrush and hobby forums (airbrushforum.com, trains.com, howtoairbrush.com etc.), I found that split nozzle and bent needle are the most common problem with heavy AB usage. There were a common theme that the users switched to certain brand because they found the need to replace nozzle is much less and the needle is much less lightly to bend. Yes, it is important that the "parts function as they should". But the user also cares how long the parts function as they should. All users care about how well the AB works. Some curious type wants to know how the manufacturer does it and some don't care. I do not call those who do to be "silly". I hope that the respect will be accord to those who do want to know the details. If you don't believe the use of superalloy in airbrush nozzle makes any difference, you are entitle to your opinion.

Where are you located Keilau? Just curious about the screen name. 

Nobody is arguing about whether, "superalloys" make any difference or not. What bothers me personally is when untruths are posted on forums such as saying that Iwata uses some super duper metal that is perceived as the best out there and others do not as that is just total BS.

In this day and age of CAD and CNC machining everyone is producing an airbrush that is of high quality or else they would be out of business in no time. The thing that I feel makes the difference in sales is perception. If airbrush maker "A" puts their ads on the full back cover of Airbrush Action Magazine month after month the sales are going to increase without a doubt! 

That in no way though translates into that company's product being any better or using higher quality materials as that is not the facts. That is all my beef is on this subject. Let's not let perceived notions sway our thinking that airbrush company A is of a higher quality than company B as that is not true when it comes to the biggest names in airbrushes. 

I would be willing to bet that no Iwata needle is as tough as the Sotar needle and I have a friend that has been airbrushing for 40 years and owns probably every airbrush ever made in his collection and he tested it out by shooting it into a wall like a crossbow bolt. He was amazed at how tough it really is. 

MikeV wrote:

Nobody is arguing about whether, "superalloys" make any difference or not. What bothers me personally is when untruths are posted on forums such as saying that Iwata uses some super duper metal that is perceived as the best out there and others do not as that is just total BS.

Who said others do not? The fact of the matter is that there are huge differences in retail prices when it comes to airbrushes. These differences are caused by a number of factors, some technical, others commercial.

Among the technical factors are

1. Invested time, experience and talent on the design of the tool
2. Material choises
3. Engineering and build quality

There is no point investing a lot of $$$ in the design and manufacturing if the materials are not up to scracth. And vice versa: The design is more or less the same, from a basic airbrush to higher-end market items - only details differ.  The machining required to make airbrushes is more or less the same, and the design is done once, up front. So materials are the one factor that really has an impact on the per-item retail price.   

In the high-end market it is fairly obvious that different approaches and solutions will cause different costs. If a paint cup is detachable, there is added costs for both parts and machining. But if the end result is that the user gets two or three paint cups along with the tool, gets easy access to the inner workings of the tool for cleaning, then the extra $10 per item this particular solution might have costed are well spent.  

Material choises have the same effect, either by avoiding problems that would otherwise occur, or by providing new solutions. As for my H&S, one can get a nozzle cleaning tool as an extra, that allows me to clean out any goo or residue from inside the nozzle, quickly and easily. I would assume that the choise of material for the nozzle determines that this solution is possible at all - both in terms of achievale precision of the machining, and resistance to bending etc while the nozzle being cleaned. (And yes, the H&S came with two detachable paint cups - very convenient!)

It's none of my business how the different manufacturers market their tools. Some might mention material choises. Others might mention pragmatic solutions to common problems.

What I do know is that the H&S has set a standard with functionality and ease of use that will be hard to match, should the day ever occur when I want to buy my 3rd airbrush.      

DoC

Here’s my thought. If someone is going to claim that brand X nozzles or needles are better than brand Y, then they ought to have some test data to show it. And, I don’t mean metallurgical analysis, I mean test data. As was stated, heat treatment can make a significant difference. There are ways of comparing hardness, tensile strength and wear. Show me some numbers. Lacking that, at least tell me about some personal experience that supports the claim.

I suspect that all major makers of airbrushes have chosen their materials and methods to create something that the market demands. They want satisfied customers and they want recommendations and repeat business. They also want to make a profit. So, they are not going to add cost if it doesn’t make sense.

Yes, needles will bend if you snag them or bump against something hard. Don’t do that.

Yes, nozzles will split if you push too hard. Don’t do that either.

I guess that’s all I have to say on the subject.

Don

Gents,

 I love reading all of this stuff, but at the end of the day Don has the most logical perspective on this.  Pretty much all brand name airbrushes work well.  The paint does not know the difference, and in applications such as model finishing airbrush wear and tear is not a notable consideration (this concern applies more to a production T-shirt painter or a nick and scratch mobile tech).  as far as materials, from what I know based on 30 years experience in all aspects of the airbrush manufacturing industry (and my dad and grandfather's having made parts for Paasche, Thayer & Chandler, and Wold airbrush back in the sixties) is that we all use a nickel alloy for our tips (Badger's is nickel silver) and we all use stainless steel for our needles (Badger's is 304 on the legend, pro production, omni and vega series, and spring tempered and carbide polished 302 on the Renegades and Sotar).  I can go into the differences, but the bottom line is the tempered 302 is more resilient if bent (like a spring) and suitable for the extreme fineness of the angles the Renegade and Sotar needles are cut to.  The nickel silver is preferable because of its ability to form to the harder stainless needle and not split when the needle is wedged into it when the airbursh trigger is returned to its forward position.  OK, I've gone on long enough - bottom line is all the major brand airbrush manufacturers make good products, otherwise we wouldn't still be around.  One thing I do know regarding airbrushes based on seeing them used for 30 years is that the best is not necessarily the most expensive.  Additionaly, a comparable analogy from my own experience is that using the golf clubs Tiger Woods told me to, did not make me a better golfer.  Pretty much all known brand name airbrush manufacturers work with similar materials and specifications (I know this  related to at least one competitor from dad and grandpa's screw machine work).  I can actually remember when the Aztek came out and they marketed that it was made from space age plastic to get people over the inhibition of buying a plastic airbursh in a metal airbrush world - it was great marketing and a lot of modelers bought them (maybe some of you), but it no longer matters to most who bought them then - and most of them have probably moved on to or returned to using more conventional, tried and true, airbush types and designs.  So indeed marketing plays a role in the airbrush industry - the Aztek is a perfect example of that.  The one thing I will say sets Badger apart is our support of our products and willingness to listen to users of our products.  It's why we are constantly innovating and have multiple active patents, 4 new airbrushes in the last year, a new paint line, two new accessories on the way, and numerous things on the drawing board as I type.  We have super powers of listening, innovating and product support - thay have super alloys which are necessary for the lunar rover on mars - we have comparable alloys that make our airbrushes work just fine and dandy.  Thanks Don for realizing the magnitude and actual level of importance on this subject.  I don't wish to debate or argue with anyone in the forum, so if you wish to discuss this further with me directly, please send me an email at kenbadger@aol.com

Take air,

ken @ badger

Mark 10:27

Not more that I can add, that hasn't already been said, but I'll try!

A quality airbrush used properly will give good results regardless of brand.

Airbrushes are tools and arguing about whether a Stanley hammer is better than a Vaughn is moot. Brand loyalty is mostly good for the manufacturer, rather than the user. For ease of operation, I have chosen Badger, but that was left to chance, as my first AB was a hand me down Badger 150 from a friend. It could easily have been a Paasche or an Aztec. However, once I had it in my hand, I built my collection upon the 100 series as parts interchangability was a bonus for me.

I hope the OP has sorted out his troubles.

Don Wheeler wrote:

Here’s my thought. If someone is going to claim that brand X nozzles or needles are better than brand Y, then they ought to have some test data to show it. And, I don’t mean metallurgical analysis, I mean test data. As was stated, heat treatment can make a significant difference. There are ways of comparing hardness, tensile strength and wear. Show me some numbers. Lacking that, at least tell me about some personal experience that supports the claim. I suspect that all major makers of airbrushes have chosen their materials and methods to create something that the market demands. They want satisfied customers and they want recommendations and repeat business. They also want to make a profit. So, they are not going to add cost if it doesn’t make sense. Yes, needles will bend if you snag them or bump against something hard. Don’t do that. Yes, nozzles will split if you push too hard. Don’t do that either. I guess that’s all I have to say on the subject. Don

Well said Don. 

Ken, thanks for the lesson on the subject you are a storehouse of information.

All we need now is Scooter to come on here and add his thoughts.

That's another man that has loads of experience and knowldege on this subject.

Don Wheeler wrote:

Here’s my thought. If someone is going to claim that brand X nozzles or needles are better than brand Y, then they ought to have some test data to show it. And, I don’t mean metallurgical analysis, I mean test data. As was stated, heat treatment can make a significant difference. There are ways of comparing hardness, tensile strength and wear. Show me some numbers. Lacking that, at least tell me about some personal experience that supports the claim.

SUPERALLOY is a well definited engineering term that identifies a class of material that has high strength, high hardness and keeps the properties over wide range of temperatures. The materials are more expensive than common alloys and difficult to machine to precise shape. But once it is fabricated, it keeps the shape and resists to wear a lot better than other alloys.

Most small manufacturers do not have the know-how nor resources to handle superalloys. But they can contract the job out. There are specialty shops who can make precision parts using exotic materials. Quantity is not necessary an issue. They make prototype parts for larger companies and small quantity for hobbyists such as race car or superbike motor cycle owners. They do excellent job, and, yes, they are quite expensive.

Superalloy alone does not mean excellent airbrush nozzle, but it is a good first step. If the airbrush maker goes through this step, I expect that their design staffs have the engineering know-how to do a good job. If they also keep the final total cost down, they succeeded. I believe the feedback from Iwata airbrush users bear this out. (In my opinion, Iwata is NOT the BMW of airbrush, but rather a Toyata or Honda. Good enough for most modelers and good value for the money.)

I don't think that the manufacturer needs to "have data" to prove superalloy has better "hardness, tensile strength and wear". That is common knowledge already. On the other hand, a manufacturer who claims that they have found a cheaper and easier to manufacture alloy equal to the superalloy will need to produce the tests to prove it.

At the end, the choice of an airbrush is subjective and personal. The artist who needs and appreciates the best and most precise airbrush is usually not an engineer and likely don't care how his airbrush was made. He knows a good airbrush when he sees one. Don Wheeler is right about this.

kenbadger wrote:

Additionaly, a comparable analogy from my own experience is that using the golf clubs Tiger Woods told me to, did not make me a better golfer.

I assume you allude to something like "a better airbrush will not make the user a better artist."

While such a statement is true in the context of airbrushes, the converse is not: A poor airbrush might actually prevent the user from becoming better.

When I bought my first airbrush a few months ago, I went to one of the local hobby shops and asked for a starter set for airbrushing. True, the set was comprehensive (single-action airbrush, some primers, paints, cleaner, gas propellant cans) but it was not for me: The airbrush required a special tool to disassemble for cleaning, it took time screwing off some of the parts in the nozzle, the siphon feed was so large it would have contained half a bottle of the paint I intended to use. It was obvious to me that this set would get me nowhere. There was just too much hazzle with operating and maintaining the thing. Hobby is supposed to be fun. This airbrush was all about work.

So on one of my travels to some other city I visited one of the larger hobby shops. "What airbrush would you recommend?" "H&S Evolution." Maybe stupid of me, but as this was the main store around, I took the guy's word for it. I only needed to have one look at the thing to realize it was far better suited for me than the first one I'd bought.

As this was the first double action airbrush I saw up close, everything just made sense to me. Only in the weeks afterwards, when the reviews of the H&S airbrushes started to appear in magazines, did I understand that this was something not quite like every other airbrush. Apparently, detachable, interchangeable cups was a new innovation. Some comments indicated that the H&S nozzle might be easier to operate during maintenance than some others. And of course, there is the cleaning tool that some commenters have praised as another innovation of H&S.

While it took some time to get to learn how to operate and maintain the H&S (messed up a couple and needles and nozzles before I discovered the safe way to insert needles), I can now do a 'field cleaning' of the H&S in about the same time it takes me to disassemble the nozzle of the SA brush. I can do a complete strip-down and cleaning of the H&S in the same time it takes me to do a basic clean of the single-action airbrush.

It has something to do with ergonomy: The H&S can't make me a better artist with the airbrush, but with the H&S it is only me, not the airbrush, that limits my potential.

There just is no hazzle at all with the H&S.  Some of the military types out there migh have been drilled in kit maintenance to the point that it becomes second nature and they treat any piece of kit they get their hands on the same way they do/did their service sidearm. But believe me: That kind of dicipline requires a lot of training. The break-down of the H&S is so simple and convenient that relaxed people like myself actually break it down and clean it. The cleaning tool gives me the confidence that I can clean out any paint residue, however bad, from the internals of even the finest nozzles.

In other words, the design of the H&S is the reason why it actually gets maintained as it is supposed to. And everybody knows what pleasures an ill-maintained airbrush bring...

So let me reciprocate with an analogy the military people can understand: There is a difference between being able to trust your sidearm to work when you need it, and having doubts about same.

I know I can trust my H&S to work how I want it to, when I need it to. The rest is up to me.  

DoC   

Dr. Coffee wrote:

While such a statement is true in the context of airbrushes, the converse is not: A poor airbrush might actually prevent the user from becoming better.

I concur.

While I am in now way attempting to derate what Ken said (I dont have the knowledge or experience to dare) I thoroughly agree with you statement.

Being a nearly 40something 2nd time around modeler, & based on my frustration as a teenager with brushed paint finishes I knew as soon as I felt the modeling urge again, it would be with an airbrush. I did hours / days scratching about the net looking at airbrush reviews & what they were all about. In the course of my trawling, it became very apparent that plenty of folk were pretty pissed with cheap end brushes, over complicated brushes & ludicrous spares prices. Keeping this in mind & being lucky enough to have the spare cash (possibly not, according to the other half) I decided to plump for a reliable, simple, quality brush, as the last thing I wanted was to buy something which would put me off the job in hand. I also didn't want something which I would outgrow in a short space of time, as this would be pretty wastefull, so the old "try a single action first" logic I see in some places was dumped.

My conclusion was H&S, simply because I couldn't find a bad review anywhere - while other brushes had as good / better reviews, they also had negative reviews.

I hadn't touched an airbrush until my Infinity arrived & I can honestly say that it does what it say on the tin & very well. I like the simplicity of the brush & the fact that I have multiple needle size & paint feed options.

While I have found spares / extra bit easy to get hold of for the Infinity, I have not had to try & get any real tech support from them. I have noticed over the course that Ken & Badger excel at this, which seems to getting rarer from companies these days. Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level.

Milairjunkie wrote:

Dr. Coffee wrote: While such a statement is true in the context of airbrushes, the converse is not: A poor airbrush might actually prevent the user from becoming better. My conclusion was H&S, simply because I couldn't find a bad review anywhere - while other brushes had as good / better reviews, they also had negative reviews.

Exactly. And that's the key with H&S: It just works.

(And no, there's no need to hype H&S. It's sufficient to point out all the problems one does not have with them, and they sell themselves.)

DoC

Dr. Coffee wrote:

kenbadger wrote: Additionaly, a comparable analogy from my own experience is that using the golf clubs Tiger Woods told me to, did not make me a better golfer.  I assume you allude to something like "a better airbrush will not make the user a better artist." While such a statement is true in the context of airbrushes, the converse is not: A poor airbrush might actually prevent the user from becoming better. In other words, the design of the H&S is the reason why it actually gets maintained as it is supposed to. And everybody knows what pleasures an ill-maintained airbrush bring... So let me reciprocate with an analogy the military people can understand: There is a difference between being able to trust your sidearm to work when you need it, and having doubts about same. I know I can trust my H&S to work how I want it to, when I need it to. The rest is up to me.   DoC

Dr. C, your point is well taken and I 100% agree. My experience switching from a Paasche H to the Iwata HP-CS parallel yours. It was designed for easy maintainance and used high quality materials to reduce the chance of accidental damage to the needle and nozzle.

I have seen quite a few glowing reports on the harder & steenbeck infinity airbrush. It seems to be taking over the European AB market by storm. The design is definitely well thought out. I am particularly intrigued by the nozzle assembly which should greatly reduce the chance of the owner looking for the tiny nozzle dropped on the carpet. There is something to say about German engineering. I wish that Mike V, Don Wheeler and Gerald Voigt can try out the H&S and tell us their impression.

The H&S is at a different price point than the Iwata HP-CS or Badger Patriot. It is about twice as expensive at $200-250. If I do not already have a CS, I will gladly pay for the 0.15 mm and 0.4 mm nozzles and interchangable cups. For now, I will stick with my one year old Iwata a bit longer.

Thank you for sharing your experience. Based on many different experiences, the Badger's excellent value comes from the unparallel customer service. Iwata comes from "Japanese car" quality and moderate price. H&S has many wonderful features, but at a higher cost. They all have their faithful followers and deserve it.

I am aware and understand there is a class of super alloys, and they have been defined accurately within this thread - however, after researching these materials we could not find a logical reason to apply or market them to airbrush usage as they are for very specific potentially extreme condition applications, which airburshing is not (even in the labatory applications and production applications we manufacture them for).  The Tiger Woods analogy has nothing to do with poor quality products, as I can assure you the Nike clubs I purchased were as well manufactured as any club I evaluated prior to purchasing them - and undoubtedly had I selected a set of crooked or improperly manufactured set of clubs it would have worsened my already sub-par (actually that might be above-par) golf game.  My point was that whether I continued with or purchased a new set of my properly manufactured less expensive mizuno clubs, or spent more to get the supposedly better Tiger Woods promoted brand, or any other supposedly more elite brand, the effect on my game was going to be nominal until I myself improved as a golfer.  For the most part the same is true whether one chooses a Renegade, Sotar, H&S, Iwata Micron over a Paasche VJR, Thayer & Chandler Vega 1000, or Badger 100 they have used with sufficient success.  Just as I must commit to practicing to improve my golf skills, one must continue to improve his finishing skills through frequent practice.  Just as my golf game will improve through practice (even using my old clubs) so to will one's airbrush skills even with their old airbrush.  Yes, I will concur at some point one can improve his skills to the point a finer engineered airbrush may enable slightly finer finishing, but in my time I'm not aware of any instances where a 10 above par airbrusher (which by golf standards is pretty good) became a 3 under par airbrusher simply by changing his airbrush.  He had to improve his skill first. 

As far as ease of use and maintenance, I think, in what I guess you guys would consider high end airbrushes, with the elimination of head seals and tip threads, and spring tempered and carbide polished needles the new Renegades rival anything out there.  Anything.  And although it seems to mean less and less these days - I am proud to make the Renegades right here in the United States.  Yes, Badger excels in service - a true benefit for the newbie - but we also have, as you would categorize them, high end airbrushes that rival any competitors.  I'm out.  Dr. C and Keilau - Thanks for the read and the stimulating conversation.

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

www.renegadeairbrushseries.com

kenbadger wrote:

Yes, I will concur at some point one can improve his skills to the point a finer engineered airbrush may enable slightly finer finishing,

I wasn't talking about achieving finer results. My point was that for the hobby user, quick and easy maintenace and no handling problems enhances the fun aspects of working with airbrushes.

Imagine the opposite: If the break-down of the tool is time-consuming and complicated; if the re-assembly of the tool requires split-hair surgeon-level precision when aligning parts; if cleaning nozzles is percieved as a risk - real or imagined - of damaging the nozzle...

Once people start thinking along such lines they tend to avoid the listed situations, that are percieved as difficult or stressing. Of course, with far worse to follow, when the airbrush malfunctions.  

At that point the hobby, which was supposed to be fun and relaxing, and about building and painting models, has become a chore and a stress. As the saying goes, proper tools is half the job.

kenbadger wrote:

Dr. C and Keilau - Thanks for the read and the stimulating conversation.

Likewise.

DoC

my point exactly.  I agree with all you just said - as evidenced by some of the new design aspects and continous improvements to our products.

Non threaded micro tips

cut back spray regulators

Easy access needle removal

Universal bottom/gravity feed airbrushes

winged back levers

micrometer handles

stop set handles

crowned regulators

teflon seals (we introduced them)

free standing color cups (we introduced them)

PAC valves (coming soon)

airbursh holders (we were the first)

airbrush ready paints (we were the first)

needle lubes (we were the first)

hand held paint mixers (we were the first)

counter balanced handles (we were the first)

listening to and implementing end user insights :-)

I could go on, but my point is you are absolutely correct, and noone has done more of what you identify as quick and easy maintenace and no handling problems and their enhancement of the fun aspects of working with airbrushes than we have.  Others have followed our lead and also done very well in making their products more user friendly, or offering accessories with that same intention. 

Heading out now - thanks for the additional insights Doc. 

Take air,

ken

kenbadger wrote:

I'm out.  Take air, ken Mark 10:27 www.renegadeairbrushseries.com

Engineers are nerds who get excited about seeing exotic metal in their hobby toys.

Outstanding after sales service is important to all airbrush users, new or experienced. Badger is on the top of the hill there. Thank you for being a good spot.

One more question before you go: Your quote of "Mark 10:27". Is it the first half only, or the whole verse?

Dr. Coffee wrote:

kenbadger wrote:   Yes, I will concur at some point one can improve his skills to the point a finer engineered airbrush may enable slightly finer finishing,  I wasn't talking about achieving finer results. My point was that for the hobby user, quick and easy maintenace and no handling problems enhances the fun aspects of working with airbrushes. Imagine the opposite: If the break-down of the tool is time-consuming and complicated; if the re-assembly of the tool requires split-hair surgeon-level precision when aligning parts; if cleaning nozzles is percieved as a risk - real or imagined - of damaging the nozzle... Once people start thinking along such lines they tend to avoid the listed situations, that are percieved as difficult or stressing. Of course, with far worse to follow, when the airbrush malfunctions.   At that point the hobby, which was supposed to be fun and relaxing, and about building and painting models, has become a chore and a stress. As the saying goes, proper tools is half the job.

I agree to a point but agree with Ken that the difference is negligable if we are talking about the better designed airbrushes. When I started T-shirt airbrushing I had trouble with the Paasche VL but when I switched to the Vega 2000 I started producing much better work because the airbrush fit and felt better.

I believe in all of scripture. Mark 10:27 (the whole thing is a favorite verse)

Jesus looked at them and said "With man this is impossible, but not with God; with God all things are possible"

It is at a time when Christ and His disciples are discussing the difficulty of entering the kingdom of heaven.  I see it as a two fold statement regarding God's humbling power and His grace in granting us salvation through faith.

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

kenbadger wrote:

I believe in all of scripture. Mark 10:27 (the whole thing is a favorite verse) Jesus looked at them and said "With man this is impossible, but not with God; with God all things are possible"

Indeed, it is. When the owner is guided by high principles, I can see how Badger provides the customer service that all other airbrush maker should copy.

Thank you for the kind words Keilau, and the opportunity to share my thoughts with you.  I don't come here to often (probably not often enough for that matter), so if you wish to talk further or ever wish to conatct me, please feel free to email me directly at kenbadger@aol.com

Take air,

ken

Mark 10:27

Milairjunkie wrote:

Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level.

Haven't had to do with Badger's customer support, but a few weeks ago I did get in touch with H&S' support.

I had bought an Infinity replacement part for my Evolution AB. While the parts are technically interchangeable, they are designed sligtly different around the nozzle. On the Infinity the tip of the needle is a bit more exposed than on the Evolution, leaving it more suceptible to damage. I discovered what this different design meant the hard way, when I damaged the needle during normal operations.  

H&S' customer support is up there with the best: The response was prompt, and I got a replacement needle, free of charge, within days.

DoC

Milairjunkie wrote:

Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level.

I seriously doubt it.

MikeV wrote:

Milairjunkie wrote: Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level. I seriously doubt it.

Well, if customers tend to have a lot of contact with a product's customer support, there might be a reason to ask why.  

DoC

Dr. Coffee wrote:

MikeV wrote:  Milairjunkie wrote: Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level. I seriously doubt it. Well, if customers tend to have a lot of contact with a product's customer support, there might be a reason to ask why.   DoC

Well Doc when you sell more airbrushes than all other companies in the world combined you tend to have more products out there that need replacement parts. 

Hey Doc, give me a break  - we've sold an average of over 100,000 units a year for the last 20+ years.  that's 2,000,000, and that's less than half as long as we've been in business.  our rate of return is less than 1% and we constantly strive for better.  If that isn't a pretty good testament to Badger's consistent quality, I wouldn't know how to meet your apparent criteria for establishing a quality standard.  On the proportionately rare occasion something is amiss with your badger made airbrush we excel at getting it corrected.

I appreciate your fondness for the H & S product - it is indeed a well made product, but please don't knock Badger's high level of quality in your endorsment of theirs.  It is unjust and the numbers indicate your implication is incorrect.

MikeV wrote:

Dr. Coffee wrote:  MikeV wrote:  Milairjunkie wrote: Time will tell if H&S can provide support to Badgers level. I seriously doubt it. Well, if customers tend to have a lot of contact with a product's customer support, there might be a reason to ask why.   DoC Well Doc when you sell more airbrushes than all other companies in the world combined you tend to have more products out there that need replacment parts.

OK, maybe a valid point.

But the past couple of days there has been a thread where a person happens to be located in a geographic area very far from the modeling mainstream, and has a problem. The technical issue seems to be a minor problem with a nozzle, but because of his location and distance from relevant supply stores this minor problem has practically stopped the guy in his tracks for days.

"What the heck, that's what nozzles do. Call John at customer support and he will fix it" just doesn't cut it, if mail and customs takes forever and postage and handling costs half a day's salary.  

As I've learned the hard way in my day job: The problems that are easiest to deal with, requires the least man-hours to fix, and that induce the least hazzle and costs, are the problems that never occur.

DoC

This is the sort of peeing match I tried to prevent with my earlier post. People get their backs up over a brand. Badger has excellent customer service, but they aren't the only company with great service. I would expect a company that charges as much as H&S to back up their product. In fact, I would demand it. I've never had any dealings with Iwata, but I'm sure they too support their products.

I'm still curious if the OP has resolved his issue, as this thread has wandered far away from the original question?