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  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:42 AM

I don't believe you're ever going to find an easy answer for this.  Of course it's confusing to a newby (is there such a word?).  It's a fairly major expense and there are many choices.  But it's like someone asking, "Which car should I buy?".  It depends.  Which one do you like?  Let's face it.  Virtually any major brand and model airbrush out there will do just fine for painting models if you learn to use it.  I've even read that some people have had good results with the little Badger 250.  Just like cars, some people will fight for GM, some for Ford, some for Toyota (well maybe not Toyota), etc. etc.

So the best we can do to help newcomers is to give patient advice, answer direct questions with direct answers, and be willing to repeat as necessary.  Either you enjoy doing it or you don't.  I do.

Thank you for the kind words.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:51 AM

Don Wheeler

 

 

 

Here's something that might help.

Don

I would take what Airbrush Action Magazine says with a grain of salt if they recommend any airbrush.

They are payed a lot of money by Medea (Iwata's supplier) and they push their products pretty hard.

I know, I was a subscriber to that magazine for many years and ended up selling my collection a few years back.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:06 AM

I agree with Bill, it is a big undertaking and I think the input of users would not necessarily be good info anyhow in many cases. But that's just my 2 cents

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:12 AM

Don, you are absolutely correct. Which airbrush is the best is such a subjective thing, that it is virtually impossible to come to a consensus on anything so detailed as a make and model.

I was getting bored of answering airbrush questions, until Justin18 posed it in a new and interesting way, worthy of a qualified response. That's why my first response in this thread was careful not to recommend one model over another, and why I tried to find an example from each of the three "big" companies.

I think we can probably agree that a dual action, gravity fed air brush, from a reputable manufacturer with ample supplies of easily attainable spare parts is the consensus of this forum. There are people who only use a single action, some that use siphon fed, even some that can make the Aztek sing! And you are right, just about ANY air brush will work for 95% of what modelers do.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:14 AM

MikeV

 

 

 

I would take what Airbrush Action Magazine says with a grain of salt if they recommend any airbrush.

They are payed a lot of money by Medea (Iwata's supplier) and they push their products pretty hard.

I know, I was a subscriber to that magazine for many years and ended up selling my collection a few years back.

It's just a chart comparing spec's, Mike.  I don't believe it makes any recommendations,  although they do give Iwata top billing.  I've never read the magazine.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:31 AM

Bgrigg

I think we can probably agree that a dual action, gravity fed air brush, from a reputable manufacturer with ample supplies of easily attainable spare parts is the consensus of this forum. There are people who only use a single action, some that use siphon fed, even some that can make the Aztek sing! And you are right, just about ANY air brush will work for 95% of what modelers do.

I recently acquired an old Badger 200, single action, siphon fed airbrush.  You can see my review here  and a sample of its output.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 12:25 PM

Don, I am the proud owner of two 100LG (Medium & Fine), one 150 & one 200-20 "detail". All sharing the "old style" head. Everything in front of the body is interchangeable. Of course the needle length required for the 200 stops me from using spare needles from the 100/150 series. I have a Large head and needle for the 100/150, but have never bothered to use it. I also have a cheap Badger 350 clone that I bought for less than $10. It fills out a space in my tool box, and serves no real purpose, though my wife used it last year for painting some stepping stones for our garden.

Badger 200-20 Detail Air Brush:

What sets this air brush apart from the other 200's is the 'guardless' spray regulator, the handle and the needle adjustment control. It comes with the medium head and needle.

The spray regulator lacks the "crown" that comes with most airbrushes. This leaves the tip of the needle exposed, so you can get incredibly close to the surface with the tip. This allows for very thin lines. It also exposes the tip to damage, and one must be very cautious to retract the needle during storage, and to replace the tip protector before putting it down, even for a second.

The handle has three O-rings held in place by engraved grooves, and allow your thumb to grip the handle firmly. Important when your needle is exposed and is a hairs breadth from the surface! The handle color departs from Badger's blue or chrome finishes, and I'm not really a fan of the shade. But, c'est la vie! I would hope handle color is not the deciding factor in a person's decision making when it comes to an air brush!

The needle adjuster is graduated and registers with a mark engraved on the handle. This allows you finer control and repeatable settings.

Your review is spot on with the 200 series ability to spray fine lines and is very easy to use and operate. I would put my 200 with it's medium needle up against my 100LG with the fine needle, though that may be more a lack of talent on my part. It certainly requires a deft hand to keep lines consistent with a dual action AB!

My 100LG M is the air brush that is used most often as I find gravity fed airbrushes a bit easier to clean, but the 200 comes out when I need to spray very fine detail. My trusty old 150 sits in its case most of the time, but I do bring it out on occasion, mostly when I'm spraying a large area.

You are correct that a 200 is all most modelers really need, however I still feel that if a person is limited by budget to buy only one air brush, a dual action is the preferable choice. They have a slightly wider range of capabilities. Now if Badger was to offer the 200G on their garage sale website...

Speaking of which, they are offering a 200-19 detail set for $44 complete with braided hose. I'm not sure what the difference between that and the -20, but mine came with the color cup, and the -19 only comes with a bottle. Heck of a deal! Other deals in stock is a 150 (air brush only, no cups, bottles or hose) for $35.20 and the 100SF in both LH & RH for $30.80.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:01 PM

Don Wheeler

 

 

 

I recently acquired an old Badger 200, single action, siphon fed airbrush.  You can see my review here  and a sample of its output.

Don

Hahaha!! Don Wheeler did dumb thing with his Badger 200 and came back alive to tell the story. Oops

Don, this is the type of writing that makes your web site so valuable to all level of modelers. Thank you for sharing the dental floss story. It makes my day.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:18 PM

Don Wheeler

 

 

 

Here's something that might help.

Don

Don,

I took a second look at this airbrush survey and found a major error. Their list of nozzle/tip size of Badger cannot be right. The Badger 100, 150 and 200 series all have a fine nozzle/tip of 0.15-0.2 mm. Anyway, all the Badger sizes are way smaller than what they actually are. Other manufacturer's list do not have the same problem.

Why the favorite treatment for Badger?

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:35 PM

Keilau, why put this down as favoritism of Badger instead of human error?

So long folks!

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:41 PM

keilau

 

 

 

Don,

I took a second look at this airbrush survey and found a major error. Their list of nozzle/tip size of Badger cannot be right. The Badger 100, 150 and 200 series all have a fine nozzle/tip of 0.15-0.2 mm. Anyway, all the Badger sizes are way smaller than what they actually are. Other manufacturer's list do not have the same problem.

Why the favorite treatment for Badger?

To tell the truth, Keilau, I haven't looked that closely at the chart.  I just knew about it and thought it might be helpful.  I don't know where they got their numbers.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: NJ 07073
Posted by archangel571 on Friday, February 12, 2010 5:50 PM

keilau

I took a second look at this airbrush survey and found a major error. Their list of nozzle/tip size of Badger cannot be right. The Badger 100, 150 and 200 series all have a fine nozzle/tip of 0.15-0.2 mm. Anyway, all the Badger sizes are way smaller than what they actually are. Other manufacturer's list do not have the same problem.

Why the favorite treatment for Badger?

It's probably just their estimation.  Badger airbrushes before the Renegade Series have never officially list their nozzle sizes on website or documentations.  All are labeled as S, M, and L.  I personally don't think that list is good enough for us.  Just a single check mark on 'Hobby/Craft' means little when a person who build 1/72 scale italian aircraft ring camo has different needs than another building 1/24 gloss paint car kits.  The prices for all brushes are almost double compare to the typical street/online prices we get at major distributors.  

Anyways, I guess if most feel like this is too much of an undertaking, we can have one thread to contain Bgrigg's article as the main introduction, and several threads to each gather other loose yet notable threads of discussion regarding a certain line of airbrushes from a single manufacturer.   That way, an beginners can just toss a coin and decide on a company or at least base it on general overall cost, and find the most well suited brush from that company based on the general user reviews.  At the same time, the reviews will be from people who have used the airbrush to model than that old series of review on badger/iwata ABs on airbrush.com or other places online where people uses it for other purposes and type of paints.

This is more of a group project from some of the main contributors here and then hopefully gathering more information from other users when they feel like they have extra notes pertaining to a specific airbrush.  Mike, Bgriggs, Kailau, if you add up the time we copy and paste some of the same information over and over again, this lil project is nothing compared to that.  This way, we can point them to that thread, add a few notes to answer some other more specific questions, which hopefully they have left in the thread mainly set for the airbrush he's looking at.  We can't offer the suggestion of the BEST airbrush, but we can give them an affirmation and tell them that the brush they are about to choose is good enough for what they will be trying to master, the art of scale modeling.

-=Ryan=- Too many kits... so little free time. MadDocWorks
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 6:44 PM

Well...

I'm willing to give it a shot, and I'm presuming you are volunteering some time, as well? Wink

Personally a discussion of needle size causes my eyes to glaze over and is meaningless to novices. It's like comparing only horsepower ratings on cars, useless without some form of context. A Bentley Continental GT Speed with a 6L 600HP W12 doesn't accelerate any faster than a Lotus Elise SC with 1.8L I4 with 220HP. Both will do 0-60 MPH in 4.3 seconds. Of course, the Bentley does it with aplomb and is whisper quiet, while the Elise shrieks and snarls enough to raise goose bumps on the dead.

I've always felt that Badger had it right by listing:

Fine - Pencil line to 2"
Medium - 1/32" to 2 1/2"
Large - 1/16" to 3"

I have both Fine and Medium 100LG and my less than skilled hands are incapable of spraying any finer than 1/32", yet I can achieve a much finer line with the 200-20 detail brush with it's medium sized needle. Context is everything.

So start shooting me the information via "conversation", and let's get started. BTW, conversations can be send by to more than one person now, so we can all stay up on what is going on.

Who's in, and who is not?

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 7:25 PM

Have fun Bill. Big Smile

I guess I can be a source of info for Badger products since I own 13 different airbrushes of theirs.

Badger considers me an airbrush art consultant so I guess Ken thinks my comments are of value. Wink

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 8:11 PM

You're going to be our expert on T&C too, my friend! Wink

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 8:46 PM

Bgrigg

You're going to be our expert on T&C too, my friend! Wink

Yes Thayer & Chandler as well. I have a few of them also.

In fact I have one that probably nobody else on the forum has as it was a special one. Wink

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: NJ 07073
Posted by archangel571 on Friday, February 12, 2010 9:20 PM

I won't list my Badger ABs since we got Mike here.  I have another Velocity in the mail to me.

For Tamiya, I have the HG Superfine, and two of the Trigger Action Wide AB.

For Iwata, I have the old HP-C, HP-BC2, eclipse HP-CS, HP-SBS, HP-BCS, HiLine HP-BH, HP-CH, old CM-C, and CM-C+.

I also have a Gunze procon boy platinum 0.3mm, equivalent to the HiLine HP-CH, but I hardly ever used it since it was an impulse buy...

So yea, you can count on my input on those.

-=Ryan=- Too many kits... so little free time. MadDocWorks
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 9:31 PM

Ryan,

Why another Velocity? Are you trying a different model?

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:26 PM

Bgrigg

Keilau, why put this down as favoritism of Badger instead of human error?

It is a joke. Wink

Some new airbrush users mistakenly believe that the smaller the nozzle, the better. It may be true for artist or bike finisher who wants details. It is not true for modelers.

I found that the 0.35-0.5 mm nozzle are optimal for me for modeling. I have to use lower pressure and thinner paints for smaller nozzle. It takes too many misty coats to get good coverage. It is inconvenient for modeling.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:34 PM

Oh, sorry! My humor radar must be on the fritz! Smile

 

So long folks!

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: NJ 07073
Posted by archangel571 on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:41 PM

MikeV

Ryan,

Why another Velocity? Are you trying a different model?

I ordered the Fine tip, regulator, n needle parts intended for the rage with it, hoping to assemble something with larger nozzle to accept thicker paint.  I don't really care for bottom feeding ABs, even though I have 3...(the iwata BCS gets regular use for primer, the BC2 was just another impulse buy but what a solid built AB, and the Anthemn just happen to be one of my first ABs since the Aztek.), so I won't get the Rage.  I sure hope the needle bearing is the same size...

-=Ryan=- Too many kits... so little free time. MadDocWorks
  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:49 PM

According to the parts list on the Badger website, the spray regulator, tip and needle are either Fine or Ultra Fine, but they list only only needle bearing.

So you should be good to go!

So long folks!

  • Member since
    June 2005
  • From: NJ 07073
Posted by archangel571 on Friday, February 12, 2010 10:57 PM

yea i figured that from coast airbrush's spare parts breakdown.  we will see how it goes.

-=Ryan=- Too many kits... so little free time. MadDocWorks
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:17 PM

archangel571

 MikeV:

Ryan,

Why another Velocity? Are you trying a different model?

 

I ordered the Fine tip, regulator, n needle parts intended for the rage with it, hoping to assemble something with larger nozzle to accept thicker paint.  I don't really care for bottom feeding ABs, even though I have 3...(the iwata BCS gets regular use for primer, the BC2 was just another impulse buy but what a solid built AB, and the Anthemn just happen to be one of my first ABs since the Aztek.), so I won't get the Rage.  I sure hope the needle bearing is the same size...

How about a Patriot 105? Have you tried one?

It is basically the Anthem 155 in a gravity feed model. I love mine and think it is going to become my workhorse airbrush which used to be my Omni 4000 which I still really like.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Friday, February 12, 2010 11:23 PM

keilau

Some new airbrush users mistakenly believe that the smaller the nozzle, the better. It may be true for artist or bike finisher who wants details. It is not true for modelers.

I debated this with someone recently on the ARC forum and they told me that if I haven't tried the Iwata Micron series personally then how could I say it is overkill or not worth the money?

I told them I have been airbrushing a long time and know some of the top experts in the country so I don't think my opinion is without merit. Neither Ken at Badger, Dave at Coast Airbrush or my friend who airbrushed for 40 years and has one of the largest collections of airbrushes I have ever seen would say that those airbrushes are worth the money on models with the paints we use.

I have heard people say they can spray Tamiya acrylics reliably through a Micron and I find that very hard to believe unless Tamiya paints have far finer paint pigments than I think they do. Confused

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    January 2010
Posted by No457 Snowy on Saturday, February 13, 2010 4:46 AM

MikeV

 

 keilau:

 

 

Some new airbrush users mistakenly believe that the smaller the nozzle, the better. It may be true for artist or bike finisher who wants details. It is not true for modelers.

 

 

 

I debated this with someone recently on the ARC forum and they told me that if I haven't tried the Iwata Micron series personally then how could I say it is overkill or not worth the money?

I told them I have been airbrushing a long time and know some of the top experts in the country so I don't think my opinion is without merit. Neither Ken at Badger, Dave at Coast Airbrush or my friend who airbrushed for 40 years and has one of the largest collections of airbrushes I have ever seen would say that those airbrushes are worth the money on models with the paints we use.

I have heard people say they can spray Tamiya acrylics reliably through a Micron and I find that very hard to believe unless Tamiya paints have far finer paint pigments than I think they do. Confused

 

I reckon you're on the money there Mike regarding the value of the Micron for modelling. I find that when spraying Tamiya metallic colours I can see a very noticeable performance difference between my HP-CS (.35mm) and my HP-CR (.5mm) with the HP-CR handling the job of spraying these larger pigments much better. I wouldn't fancy trying it with a Micron as I suspect it would just clog.

 

Cheers,

 

Snowy Toast

  • Member since
    October 2007
  • From: Scotland
Posted by Milairjunkie on Saturday, February 13, 2010 8:17 AM

keilau

Some new airbrush users mistakenly believe that the smaller the nozzle, the better. It may be true for artist or bike finisher who wants details. It is not true for modelers.

I found that the 0.35-0.5 mm nozzle are optimal for me for modeling. I have to use lower pressure and thinner paints for smaller nozzle. It takes too many misty coats to get good coverage. It is inconvenient for modeling.

I dont disagree that this works for you, but I use my 0.2 more often than my 0.4 set up as I feel it works better for what I do (mainly 1/72). I also use 1.5 for detailing, the spray "cone" of the 1.5 is so fine that I can do really small details with minimal or no masking - where both the 2.0 & 4.0 would either have wrecked the job or taken considerable masking.

I am a modeler & I have found smaller combinations to be "true", I also find the using smaller set ups on occasion far less inconvinient that going on a maskathon for smaller detail.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:10 AM

MikeV

 archangel571:

 MikeV:

Ryan,

Why another Velocity? Are you trying a different model?

I ordered the Fine tip, regulator, n needle parts intended for the rage with it, hoping to assemble something with larger nozzle to accept thicker paint.  I don't really care for bottom feeding ABs, even though I have 3...(the iwata BCS gets regular use for primer, the BC2 was just another impulse buy but what a solid built AB, and the Anthemn just happen to be one of my first ABs since the Aztek.), so I won't get the Rage.  I sure hope the needle bearing is the same size...

 

How about a Patriot 105? Have you tried one?

It is basically the Anthem 155 in a gravity feed model. I love mine and think it is going to become my workhorse airbrush which used to be my Omni 4000 which I still really like.

Or the Patriot 105 fine. With the fine nozzle, the Patriot 105 is an Anthem 3155 hybrid in gravity feed mode.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Saturday, February 13, 2010 10:28 AM

Milairjunkie

 keilau:

Some new airbrush users mistakenly believe that the smaller the nozzle, the better. It may be true for artist or bike finisher who wants details. It is not true for modelers.

I found that the 0.35-0.5 mm nozzle are optimal for me for modeling. I have to use lower pressure and thinner paints for smaller nozzle. It takes too many misty coats to get good coverage. It is inconvenient for modeling.

 

I dont disagree that this works for you, but I use my 0.2 more often than my 0.4 set up as I feel it works better for what I do (mainly 1/72). I also use 1.5 for detailing, the spray "cone" of the 1.5 is so fine that I can do really small details with minimal or no masking - where both the 2.0 & 4.0 would either have wrecked the job or taken considerable masking.

I am a modeler & I have found smaller combinations to be "true", I also find the using smaller set ups on occasion far less inconvinient that going on a maskathon for smaller detail.

Milairjunkie, I don't believe that we have a disagreement here. The optimal nozzle (or airbrush) depends on the user, the paint, the way he paints and the model scale.

I airbrush acrylic paint almost exclusively because I do not have an indoor airbrush spray booth. I use Tamiya mostly with a few MM and Gunze due to convenience of LHS locations. When I first switch from a Paasche H to the Iwata HP-CS, it took me a while to figure out the optimal thinning ratio and pressure setting to get the finish that I like. And I got tip dry occasionally when I did not thin enough. It was never difficult to get a even color coverage from any AB, but getting the right kind of surface finish smoothness and shine is different.

I build 1:48 jet mostly, occasional 1:32 older aircrafts and ships. I have a few 1:16 tanks too. It is a matter of convenience to lay down a solid color over a relatively large area when smoothness such as that on an armor is not as critical. A 0.5 mm nozzle allows for that and it also should work better with metallic paints.

I fully realize that modeler using enamel paint and work on smaller scale model will have a very different experience than mine. That's why we are here to share.

  • Member since
    December 2002
  • From: Cornebarrieu (near Blagnac), France
Posted by Torio on Sunday, February 14, 2010 8:03 PM

Alright, chaps, my own silly thoughts :

1°) I think a Custom Micron would do but I find it rather unadapted for the job (prefer the HPCH which is somehow "like")

2°) I prefer the Velocity to the Patriot

3°) Bgrigg, where did you find that a Harder & Steenbeck sold for $ 400 ? Even the Infinity does not reach this cost

Neddless to say that points 1 and 2 are most subjective.

Thank you all for coming José

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