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Sotar History

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  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Saturday, April 24, 2010 2:45 PM

Don Wheeler

 keilau:

I derived the needle angles using the arctangent of the OD/Taper ratio. So it should be fairly accurate. It seems to me that everyone agreed that the needle angle or taper length is important. The angles do correlate well with the use of the airbrushes.

Keilau,

When you did the arctangent measurement of the Patriot needle, did you consider the small secondary taper on the end?  If not for this shortening, the needle would extend about another 0.050".  I did a direct measurement of angle on the main taper and came up with 8 degrees.  By the way, if you watch the tour video on the Badger website, you will see a large optical comparator which can measure angles very accurately.

Don

Yes, I noticed the double taper on all the Badger needles. On the Iwata and H&S needle, there is only one taper that a naked eye can see. I did not want to stir up another argument for pointing out the difference and just went with the measurement method that Bill Grigg heard from Ken Schlotfeldt. I don't know what to make of the double taper which effectively shortens the total taper length. By intuition, I suspect the second steeper taper angle and a shorter taper can create a larger spray angle. (Just guessing on my part.)

I did measure both taper angles the way you did. I have a first taper at 33.2° and the second taper at 8.02°. We seem to agree pretty well again. But they (direct measurements) are still near or above the high end of the range the Bill Grigg cited from Ken Schlotfeldt. We are measuring the finest needle for the Pro-series. Shouldn't it be closer to the low end value instead? That's why I suspect a different measuring method or definition.

I read with interest (a while back) on your web site that the Renegade Rage needle shape is identical to the older Legend series Badger 200 single action needle. So the 200 had been using a small second taper angle for a long time. Why did Badger make the newer Pro-series needle angle larger?

Do you know how Badger uses their optical comparator? I would not have expected that an airbrush needle needs that type of accuracy. I will be really impressed if Badger checks the matching of needle angle to the inside nozzle angle in their production. Many suppliers who make precision parts for my projects use the optical technique to certify that their parts meet the specification which are a lot tighter than an airbrush spec.

Let us all hope that this interesting discussion will not turn into another shouting match by the others.

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Saturday, April 24, 2010 4:06 PM

keilau

 

 

 

Yes, I noticed the double taper on all the Badger needles. On the Iwata and H&S needle, there is only one taper that a naked eye can see. I did not want to stir up another argument for pointing out the difference and just went with the measurement method that Bill Grigg heard from Ken Schlotfeldt. I don't know what to make of the double taper which effectively shortens the total taper length. By intuition, I suspect the second steeper taper angle and a shorter taper can create a larger spray angle. (Just guessing on my part.)

Your guess is as good as mine.  But my guess is that the double taper makes the needle less damage prone, and they probably found that it had little or no effect on spray pattern.

I did measure both taper angles the way you did. I have a first taper at 33.2° and the second taper at 8.02°. We seem to agree pretty well again.

Then we agree the main taper of the needle is 8 degreesI suspect this is the taper that is significant.

But they (direct measurements) are still near or above the high end of the range the Bill Grigg cited from Ken Schlotfeldt. We are measuring the finest needle for the Pro-series. Shouldn't it be closer to the low end value instead? That's why I suspect a different measuring method or definition.

You got me. All I know is what I measure.  How do you know the 105 needle is the finest?

I read with interest (a while back) on your web site that the Renegade Rage needle shape is identical to the older Legend series Badger 200 single action needle. So the 200 had been using a small second taper angle for a long time. Why did Badger make the newer Pro-series needle angle larger?

Badger has been making airbrushes for a long time and they know much more about them than you  or I.  So I assume they chose based on the performance characteristics they were looking for.

Do you know how Badger uses their optical comparator? I would not have expected that an airbrush needle needs that type of accuracy. I will be really impressed if Badger checks the matching of needle angle to the inside nozzle angle in their production. Many suppliers who make precision parts for my projects use the optical technique to certify that their parts meet the specification which are a lot tighter than an airbrush spec.

Optical comparators are very easy to use and it only takes a couple seconds to verify an angle, especially if you have fixturing and an overlay.  As an engineer, you know that nothing is perfect.  Everything has a tolerance that is acceptable.  I spent some time in support of a receiving inspection lab, so I know that.  Badger must have tolerances,  but what they are is no doubt company confidential.

Let us all hope that this interesting discussion will not turn into another shouting match by the others.

Not on my part.  Obviously you are interested in these details.  And I think it's fun to think about them too.  But, I must say that to the average guy who just wants an airbrush that will do a good job on his models, it doesn't mean much.  Most any Badger, Paasche, Iwata, etc. will do that with a little practice.

By the way, one thing you are missing is the effect of air flow, which I suspect is laminar over the needle.  Airbrush designs do vary in the configuration of the regulator and who knows what effect this has.  It would take something like Schlieren optics to examine it, and that's beyond my resources.  Perhaps you have access to something like this.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Saturday, April 24, 2010 6:05 PM

Don Wheeler

Then we agree the main taper of the needle is 8 degrees.  I suspect this is the taper that is significant.

 keilau:

But they (direct measurements) are still near or above the high end of the range the Bill Grigg cited from Ken Schlotfeldt. We are measuring the finest needle for the Pro-series. Shouldn't it be closer to the low end value instead? That's why I suspect a different measuring method or definition.

You got me. All I know is what I measure.  How do you know the 105 needle is the finest?

Don

According to the product guide, the Pro-series needles are interchangable among models 105 Patriot, 155 Anthem, 175 Crescendo, 200NH, 360 Universal.  The finest needle for this series is the Hybrid 3155 needle #51-81DT. This is the fine needle (vs. the standard needle #51-48) for the 105 Patriot and the 155 Anthem.

However, there is a little confusion. My printed copy of the 105 manual uses #51-48DT for the fine needle, which was what I ordered as spare but I received the #51-81DT. The Badger web site 105 manual still calls the fine needle #51-81DT. I hope that they are one and the same. Did you compare your Hybrid 3155 needle with your 105 Patriot needle?

According to Bill Grigg quote of Ken, the Pro series needle angle range should be from 6.8° to 8.5°. The 8° needle angle that both of us measured just seemed high for a "fine needle". Well, another of those mysteries.

Don Wheeler

By the way, one thing you are missing is the effect of air flow, which I suspect is laminar over the needle.  Airbrush designs do vary in the configuration of the regulator and who knows what effect this has.  It would take something like Schlieren optics to examine it, and that's beyond my resources.  Perhaps you have access to something like this.

Yes, I used Schlieren photography often, but I cannot afford the expenses of the crew that comes with the system for personal hobby. Also, the system works well only with high speed flow where shocks occur. (Schlieren work on the bending of light caused by sudden change in air density. The shock which is a discontinuity in pressure gradient is the easiest to see.) There are many cheaper ways of flow visualization too. But most are qualitative instead of quantitative. And the cheapest way to get what you want may be to use CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics). I lost my CFD skill years ago, but many graduate student in engineering majors can probably do what you ask.

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Wingman_kz on Monday, April 26, 2010 2:28 AM

I'm callin' you out Mike!  Why don't you hook up that Sotar and show us what it will do? Please? And while you have it out, how about drawing a line or two with the Renegade? Big Smile  I don't recall, do you have the Velocity?

I'm serious. Not picking on you or doubting you or anything else. Recently came into a little extra cash and am ready to purchase a new brush. Undecided between a Sotar or Velocity. Or maybe a Spirit. I'm torn.  Which Sotar do you have? 1 or 2? And if you have a 2, for working extremely close tight detail is the cup in the way? I'll get a 105 eventually because I really like my 360 but right now I'm thinking of something a little finer.

Tony

            

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:25 AM

Wingman_kz

I'm callin' you out Mike!  Why don't you hook up that Sotar and show us what it will do? Please? And while you have it out, how about drawing a line or two with the Renegade? Big Smile  I don't recall, do you have the Velocity?

I'm serious. Not picking on you or doubting you or anything else. Recently came into a little extra cash and am ready to purchase a new brush. Undecided between a Sotar or Velocity. Or maybe a Spirit. I'm torn.  Which Sotar do you have? 1 or 2? And if you have a 2, for working extremely close tight detail is the cup in the way? I'll get a 105 eventually because I really like my 360 but right now I'm thinking of something a little finer.

Tony

Tony, go with the Velocity. The Sotar is great but the cup is small.

Yes I have a Velocity and my Sotar has both needles and tips.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
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  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 12:39 PM

Wingman_kz

 

Recently came into a little extra cash and am ready to purchase a new brush. ........ I'll get a 105 eventually because I really like my 360 but right now I'm thinking of something a little finer.

Tony

The Badger 360 and 105 share most parts.  You can use a 105 fine needle in the 360 without changing airbrush. Ask MikeV or Don Wheeler what else you need in addition to the $7.10 needle.

  • Member since
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  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 2:05 PM

keilau

 

 Wingman_kz:

 

 

Recently came into a little extra cash and am ready to purchase a new brush. ........ I'll get a 105 eventually because I really like my 360 but right now I'm thinking of something a little finer.

Tony

 

 

The Badger 360 and 105 share most parts.  You can use a 105 fine needle in the 360 without changing airbrush. Ask MikeV or Don Wheeler what else you need in addition to the $7.10 needle.

True Keilau but the only problem is the 360 color cup is so small.

I think if I had to start over and only have two airbrushes it would be the 105 Patriot and a Velocity.

With those two I could paint anything, period!

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
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  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 5:12 PM

MikeV

I think if I had to start over and only have two airbrushes it would be the 105 Patriot and a Velocity.

With those two I could paint anything, period!

Mike,

I can't help but notice both airbrushes you chose have a fine needle and head combo.  Are you not concerned about spraying larger acrylic coats, like a base coat, with those and having some clogging?  That was the main reason I chose a medium needle and tip combo for my 100LG was being concerned about acrylics plugging up the works!

As of now, I don't own an airbrush with a fine needle and tip, but have been debating a Patriot to fill that need.

Chris

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
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  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:23 PM

Killjoy

 

 MikeV:

 

I think if I had to start over and only have two airbrushes it would be the 105 Patriot and a Velocity.

With those two I could paint anything, period!

 

 

Mike,

I can't help but notice both airbrushes you chose have a fine needle and head combo.  Are you not concerned about spraying larger acrylic coats, like a base coat, with those and having some clogging?  That was the main reason I chose a medium needle and tip combo for my 100LG was being concerned about acrylics plugging up the works!

As of now, I don't own an airbrush with a fine needle and tip, but have been debating a Patriot to fill that need.

Chris

Actually they do not have a fine needle as that is an option.

I am not recommending any fine needle and tip for base coats and never would. I am only recommending them for very fine lines which are rarely needed in this hobby. Getting modeling paints to spray consistantly well in this hobby is difficult to say the least.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 6:58 PM

So you bought both a Patriot and a Velocity with Medium needle and head?  How do they compare to a 100LG for example?  Reason I ask is that's what I own currently.  I want (not need) a new toy, and it's either going to be a Patriot or a Velocity.

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    December 2009
Posted by brickshooter on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 9:03 PM

I use the Velocity with the .21 mm needle with Tamiya acrylics and I've no clogging issues.    I work on 1/48 air and 1/35 armor.   In fact, after tinkering around with the medium .33 needle, I actually went back to the .21mm for all purpose.

I think it comes down to the paint one uses.  I'd stick to the better acrylics such as Tamiya and Vallejo.   I think that they were actually designed for air brushing.

But I don't use any special filtering.  I actually shake the bottles which is a no-no.  But old habits are hard to kill.  And my thinning is by sight, rather than any exact ratio.    In other words, if forgiveness is a big issue for you, then the Velocity may be the better choice than the Sotar.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Tuesday, April 27, 2010 10:25 PM

The Renegade series uses a polished needle, which is supposed to reduce clogging. Using good paint certainly helps, and Tamiya is an excellent airbrush paint. From all accounts (I haven't used any) Vallejo is, as well.

I don't filter my paint, but I do take care in order that dried paint can't accidentally fall back inside the bottle, and I only stir my paint. My Mark I eyeball does my thinning for me. A splish of thinner and a splash of paint and I stir in the airbrush cup. So far, it's worked for me.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Virginia
Posted by Wingman_kz on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 2:48 AM

Well, I was hoping that Mike would give us a little demo but I guess not. For my immediate needs/wants I'm leaning towards the Sotar. Smaller and lighter. I checked out the business at Don's link and they're legit. The price is for a complete brush that is not a second or blem. Thank you for that Don. I'll let y'all know how it works out.

Don, sorry if my post got your thread off topic. I didn't mean to. I know what parts interchange on the other brushes and have a pretty good idea of what most of them will do.

Tony

            

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:32 AM

Wingman_kz

Well, I was hoping that Mike would give us a little demo but I guess not.

I will try Tony but with my odd hours it's tough sometimes. I am working a graveyard shift as we speak and it's a little tough to airbrush at my best when I am a zombie. Big Smile

As I said though I will try to do a little test for you with Tamiya paints and the Sotar regular and fine tips as well as the Velocity.

For my immediate needs/wants I'm leaning towards the Sotar. Smaller and lighter. I checked out the business at Don's link and they're legit. The price is for a complete brush that is not a second or blem. Thank you for that Don. I'll let y'all know how it works out.

I think either one would suit you for the finest of lines Tony but the Velocity is their newest design so it may have some advantages. Why not contact Ken Schlotfeldt at Badger and ask him your dilema. He is a wealth of knowledge and can answer things I can't. His email is kenbadger@aol.com

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 5:35 AM

Killjoy

So you bought both a Patriot and a Velocity with Medium needle and head?  How do they compare to a 100LG for example?  Reason I ask is that's what I own currently.  I want (not need) a new toy, and it's either going to be a Patriot or a Velocity.

I think you will see very similar results with the 100LG and the Velocity. The Patriot would be somewhere in the middle of those two as it sprays fine lines but I think the 100LG with a fine needle and tip sprays even smaller if the user is capable of doing that. The Patriot is nice because it is a simple design with a cone tip instead of the tiny ones you screw on in the 100LG. The Patriot is also simple to clean and can be disassembled very quickly.

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 7:06 AM

Killjoy

So you bought both a Patriot and a Velocity with Medium needle and head?  How do they compare to a 100LG for example?  Reason I ask is that's what I own currently.  I want (not need) a new toy, and it's either going to be a Patriot or a Velocity.

For whatever it's worth. Badger had stated that the airbrush "linear airflow angle" is an important factor in how fine an airbrush draws. This link of the Renegade review said that a mere half degree in the angle can make a significant difference. Here are some information I gether from measurements made by Don Wheeler or published by Badger:

Renegade Velocity Ultra fine needle: 6°

Renegade Rage fine needle: 6.5°

Old 200/100 fine needle: 6.5°

Patriot fine needle: 8°

I have only the Patriot fine. I found it very forgiving and not easily clogged with model paints. It seems to be in the opposite end of the Velocity. 

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:30 AM

Wingman_kz

Don, sorry if my post got your thread off topic. I didn't mean to. I know what parts interchange on the other brushes and have a pretty good idea of what most of them will do.

Tony

Sometimes the threads that wander are the most interesting, as long as they don't get nasty. Smile

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
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  • From: 41 Degrees 52.4 minutes North; 72 Degrees 7.3 minutes West
Posted by bbrowniii on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:05 PM

Hey guys,

I just read through this whole discussion and, even though a lot of it is beyond my scope, it is pretty darn informative.

Now, the question becomes, is there a group consensus on what airbrush would satisfy the needs of your average model builder - that whole 'If you could only own ONE, which would it be'...

EDIT:  Ooops, I guess if I want to get an answer to this question all I need to do is cruise on over to the 'What is the best airbrush to purchase' thread, eh? Geeked

'All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing' - Edmund Burke (1770 ??)

 

  • Member since
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  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:44 PM

I've said it many times: a dual action internal mix gravity fed airbrush with a medium sized needle/nozzle (~ 0-4mm - 0.5mm) will suffice for 95% of modelers. Fine sized needle/nozzle (~0.2mm - 0.3mm) will do a slightly finer line, but not as wide at at the maximum and can (I repeat CAN) cause more clogging issues.

The budget conscious can get a Badger 100LG or 105 Patriot, Iwata Revolution HP-CR, Paasche Talon or H&S Ultra for $80 or less.

$130 or less will get you the Badger Renegade Velocity, Iwata HP-CS, Grex Genesis XG or H&S Evolution Solo, these typically come with the fine needle.

Adding $25-$50 will get you the option of having both needle/nozzle sizes. And adding another $100-200 will get you bragging rights, but IMHO won't do a thing for the average modeler. I'm not saying they can't perform better, in the hands of a practiced hand, only that the AVERAGE modeler has no need to pay two or three times as much money at the budget airbrush.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    December 2009
Posted by brickshooter on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 1:49 PM

Forced to pick only ONE brush?

If I live in the USA, the Badger Velocity.
If I live in Europe or Asia, the Iwata HP-C.

(I'm assuming you're working with 1/48 aircraft or 1/35 armor like me)

  • Member since
    April 2004
  • From: Windy city, US
Posted by keilau on Wednesday, April 28, 2010 8:45 PM

bbrowniii

Now, the question becomes, is there a group consensus on what airbrush would satisfy the needs of your average model builder - that whole 'If you could only own ONE, which would it be'...

I got an Iwata Eclipse HP-CS in late 2008. I had to make some adjustment from my Paasche H. Once I got the hang of it, I like the result a lot better than with the old H and love the control of the trigger. The CS came with a 0.35 mm nozzle and a 6.5° needle, which allows it to draw finer line than most other airbrush at its price range. Originally, I thought that I will keep the Paasche H for painting large areas, but I never go back to it in the last year. You can add a 0.5 mm nozzle, 7.3° needle to the CS for less than $20. Need 3 parts, needle, nozzle and nozzle cap.

I have since add a Badger Patriot 105 fine and a H&S Evolution Silverline Solo. The Patriot fine needle has a 0.5 mm nozzle and a 8° needle which is good enough for modeling details, but it is always nice to have a little extra in fine details. The H&S has a 0.2 mm nozzle and a 5° needle, which has more detail capability than modeling needs, but not too convenient for larger model painting. And, of course, all of these airbrushes are utimately limited by the skill of the user. The Iwata CS is still the one airbrush that I want to have if I could have only one.

Other factors about the Iwata CS: well balance, easy cleaning, springy needle (less prone to damage), AB and parts very cheap and always in stock at Hobby Lobby. An optional pre-set adjustment handle is available for $18, which can be used to draw extra fine lines.  The body at 110 grams is on the heavy side. Some like it, but others prefer a light body. (Badger 85 grams, Evolution 95 grams.)

  • Member since
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  • From: Virginia
Posted by Wingman_kz on Thursday, April 29, 2010 2:49 AM

Good deal Don.

Mike, I'll be looking forward to it. Thanks. Yes

But I might even beat you to the punch. I've given serious thought to buying both a Sotar and Velocity to give them a try and sell whichever I like the least. Only problem is, what if I don't want to let it go. lol  I mean, the price on the Sotar is very good so if it were the one to go there shouldn't be a problem getting my money back. If I could get 2/3 or 3/4 of the price of the Velocity back I think it would be worth it just to have the opportunity to try it out. I'd still like to see you compare them though 'cause I'd like to see the difference between fine and medium in the Sotar. I know what night shift is like. Outside of a week or two here and there nite shift is all I've worked for the last 10 years. Well, except for recently being unemployed.

You know, I may not be able to do what I'd like to do with either of those brushes but it's something I want to try. Expand my horizons so to speak. lol  I know the Sotar and Velocity are supposed to share the same needle and tip technology but there must be a difference because of the difference in price of replacement parts. I think a brush like the Sotar with a smaller cup and lighter weight would be easier to handle. One thing I do find interesting about the Renegade series is the needle seal that the owner/user can replace themselves. It may not be as durable as the Teflon bearing but the fact that you can replace it yourself with no special tools is good. I need to send in my 360 because I'm starting to get more paint running up the needle. I do tear my brush apart and clean it a lot but I believe I did some damage to the bearing back when I used pipe cleaners. Oh well, I'd rather have to replace a seal due to excessive cleaning than blow out a speck of red or orange paint in the middle of a beautiful white color coat.  That will just ruin your day.

Beware the man with one gun...

Tony

            

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:38 AM

bbrowniii

Now, the question becomes, is there a group consensus on what airbrush would satisfy the needs of your average model builder - that whole 'If you could only own ONE, which would it be'...

I would say the Patriot 105 would be my choice if relegated to one instead of 14. Big Smile

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
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  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 11:24 AM

MikeV

I would say the Patriot 105 would be my choice if relegated to one instead of 14. Big Smile

REALLY!?!  Now that surprised me a bit.  I was expecting you to say the Velocity.  Why would you choose the Patriot over all others?

Chris

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:40 PM

It doesn't surprise me. Cool

Remember that the question is "if you could only own ONE". Mike's making a similar choice as I would and going for the less expensive airbrush, that can do 99.5% of what the Velocity can do. The Velocity can spray a hairline compared to the Patriot's pencil line. A difference not worth noting for the average modeler. I have to say that the gun metal color of the Velocity is a bit off-putting. I would rather have a chrome finish, as it doesn't hide colors.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: Hayward, CA
Posted by MikeV on Thursday, April 29, 2010 4:55 PM

Bgrigg

It doesn't surprise me. Cool

Remember that the question is "if you could only own ONE". Mike's making a similar choice as I would and going for the less expensive airbrush, that can do 99.5% of what the Velocity can do. The Velocity can spray a hairline compared to the Patriot's pencil line. A difference not worth noting for the average modeler. I have to say that the gun metal color of the Velocity is a bit off-putting. I would rather have a chrome finish, as it doesn't hide colors.

Well said Bill. I have very few instances where I need an airbrush to be able to spray finer than the Patriot.

The Patriot is also less delicate and simple to disassemble and clean. I am not saying that the Velocity is not simple as well but it does have much smaller parts that are more prone to damage or losing them to the carpet monster. BTW I think the gunmetal color of the Velocity is very cool! Cool

Wisdom is the right use of knowledge. To know is not to be wise. Many men know a great deal, and are all the greater fools for it. There is no fool so great a fool as a knowing fool. But to know how to use knowledge is to have wisdom. " Charles Spurgeon
  • Member since
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  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 5:47 PM

Simple I like!  Thanks Mike and Bill, I think you have made my mind up for me.  Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but the Patriot uses the same needle and tip as the Anthem, right?  Reason I ask is I own a garage sale Anthem, and if they're interchangable, I will not need to order the medium needle and tip for the Patriot (which comes with the fine, right?)

Thanks again!

Chris

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

  • Member since
    October 2008
  • From: Fullerton, Calif.
Posted by Don Wheeler on Thursday, April 29, 2010 6:21 PM

Killjoy

Simple I like!  Thanks Mike and Bill, I think you have made my mind up for me.  Now, please correct me if I am wrong, but the Patriot uses the same needle and tip as the Anthem, right?  Reason I ask is I own a garage sale Anthem, and if they're interchangable, I will not need to order the medium needle and tip for the Patriot (which comes with the fine, right?)

Thanks again!

Chris

All parts are interchangeable between the Anthem and Patriot.  The Patriot comes with the fine needle , tip, and regulator.

Don

https://sites.google.com/site/donsairbrushtips/home

A collection of airbrush tips and reviews

Also an Amazon E-book and paperback of tips.

  • Member since
    May 2005
  • From: Left forever
Posted by Bgrigg on Thursday, April 29, 2010 6:23 PM

Correct, Chris.

The ONLY difference between the 155 Anthem and 105 Patriot is the siphon or gravity fed body, and that the Anthem comes with the "medium" head while the Patriot comes with the "fine" head. The air valve, spray regulator, needle chuck, spring, handle etc. are exactly the same parts. In fact the 200NH uses the same medium head assembly (with a "crown" spray regulator) as the Anthem, and even the air valve is the same (though it is mounted on an angle). Because it is a single action the 200NH uses a different handle and needle chuck system.

This is the similar to the 100/150 series. The 200 (not the NH) uses the same head assembly and air valve, but everything else is built for a single action.

This is how I ended up with a 100LG, 150 and 200. If I split the tip on my trusty 100LG, I just swap in the one from the 150 while I wait for a replacement. Parts redundancy is a cool thing to have!

Unfortunately, Badger doesn't sell the bodies as a separate entity, or I would order the G body for both the 100 and 200.

So long folks!

  • Member since
    March 2008
  • From: Steilacoom, Washington
Posted by Killjoy on Thursday, April 29, 2010 6:37 PM

Bgrigg

 Parts redundancy is a cool thing to have!

Unfortunately, Badger doesn't sell the bodies as a separate entity, or I would order the G body for both the 100 and 200.

Yeah, many years in the Army taught me the value of parts redundancy!  And tell me about it!  I'd buy a few bodies only as well.  100RH would be one for sure!

Thanks again to Don, Bill, and Mike for sharing the knowledge!  It makes me much more confidant with my purchasing decision! 

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including my life."

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