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Calling All Gurus - re-prime or not?

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  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Calling All Gurus - re-prime or not?
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, October 23, 2022 5:53 PM

So im a little ( really - a lot) out of practice....  I primed with Stynlrez and a hour or so later, taped off.  I was thinking you could tape soon INSTEAD of just sprayig...  EDIT:  Got the 2 mixed up. I know this primer can be sprayed over a short time after applying and got that procedure mixed up with taping and spraying. This time after applying, I forgot, and taped an hour or so before spraying the bottom.

See result.  So - Question  - woudl you re-prime the grey area or just waiti for it to dry up some more and just shoot the black?  FWIW, probably no diffeence - its OLD plastic.

 

 

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    April 2003
  • From: USA
Posted by keavdog on Sunday, October 23, 2022 6:11 PM

I think I would strip the paint and start over.

Thanks,

John

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Sunday, October 23, 2022 6:26 PM

I'm with Keavdog...strip it and start over.  You'll actually save time in the end by doing that.  I don't have any experience with stripping Stynylrez, but I use isopropyl alcohol to strip everything else I have painted or primed with.  It works quickly and doesn't hurt the plastic/resin underneath.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Sunday, October 23, 2022 7:18 PM

Ditto

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 7:09 AM

I think its pretty obvious as well that it needs stripping and doing over. But I'm curious about a couple things concerning prep, that you don't repeat whats happened already.

Could you describe your surface prep before priming ? Have you washed the hull, any scuffing of that old plastic ?

And did you mix the Stynylrez by hand stirring or power mixing before use ? Just shaking is often not enough with this primer, so the good stuff of the primer is left sitting on the bottom.

  • Member since
    February 2021
Posted by MJY65 on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 7:37 AM

Steps for modeling happiness:

 

1.  Strip old primer

2.  Throw Stynylrez in trash

3.  Prime with Tamiya FSP or the lacquer based primer of your choice

4.  Enjoy

  • Member since
    June 2014
Posted by BrandonK on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 9:03 AM

Once you get the old primer stripped remove any residues or oils with a good wipe down of alcohol. Then prime it. I usually let all paints and primers set overnight just to be safe they are dry. Another good rule of thumb is to make sure the tape you are using is low tack. Tamiya tape and blue painters tape works good, just stick them to your arm or hand before applying them to remove some of the sticky so they are less likely to pull paint up when removed. When pulling the tape, go slow and pull back against the direction of the tape 180 deg. If you pull 90 deg you are far more likely to pull paint up. Take your time and work slow and you should get great results.

BK

On the bench:

A lot !! And I mean A LOT!!

2023 Kits on deck / in process / completed   

                         14 / 5 / 0   

                              Tongue Tied

  • Member since
    September 2017
  • From: Roanoke Virginia
Posted by Strongeagle on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 9:37 AM

I've found that Stynlrez Gray is one of the hardest paints/primers to remove once it sets.  It laughs at alcohol and "purple industrial cleaners."  I usually have to go to EZ Off oven cleaner to remove it.

I have a love/hate relationship with Stynlrez, but mostly I hate it.  I've got to throw-in with MJY65.  Shed yourself of Stynlrez and go to something like Mr. Surfacer.  Much easier to apply and you'll be a happier modeler.  

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Tuesday, October 25, 2022 9:40 AM

DittoDitto

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Friday, October 28, 2022 7:36 AM

Sorry, not getting notifications- just seeing these now. 

Steps - remove flash, belemishes. 
sand rough spots

wash with water and dawn. Dry

let sit a day

wipe with alcohol. Sit a day

shoot with Stynylrez that was mixed and shaken by hand and stirrer over a number of days as it hasn't been used in a long time. Not thinned and applied by directions on bottle. 

let sit a few hours then taped and primed. Here's the mistake as mentioned above - got my taping drying time mixed with just spraying over time....  

 

BUT -  this may have contributed too as I remember this happening before. I used Tamiya yellow tape. I did dull the sticky of the tape before applying by pressing it to my pants after I had cut my taping edge with exacto.

i seem to remember having an issue with this tape before with peeling. Like it's too sticky. I'm sure my lack of cure time is the most like contributor here though. But , I've now put the tamiya in a baggie marked "do Not use for painting" and have gone back to purple and blue painters tape. 

 

Keep on building!

Moderator
  • Member since
    April 2022
Posted by Kendra Bell on Friday, October 28, 2022 8:55 AM

Test

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Friday, October 28, 2022 9:31 AM

After stripping I'd scuff the entire hull with micro mesh or 000 steel wool personally, only because you've already had bond issues, not because Stynylrez generally needs it. And I'd power mix that bottle of separated Stynylrez, that stuff is about impossible to get all/fully/100% back together again by hand. But a power mixing will do it in about two minutes. I'd also change from the alcohol wipe down to mineral spirits, some of us here have seen some inconsistencies in the finish of Stynylrez when doing an alcohol wipe down.. Don't know why but we have seen a kind of motor oil on water look to the finish when usin alcohol wipe. It doesn't matter if it makes no sense, it's just there and isn't when using mineral spirits. Could be our particular environments, who knows but it doesn't matter.

Just for the record and I'm not endorsing it's use but I've used detacked blue painters tape with stynylrez and not had it lift at all, never mind as yours did. I normally use low tack modeler tape.

 

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, October 30, 2022 8:16 AM

oldermodelguy

Just for the record and I'm not endorsing it's use but I've used detacked blue painters tape with stynylrez and not had it lift at all, never mind as yours did. I normally use low tack modeler tape.

mine pulled with the tamiya detacked yellow tape. I like better and have had no issues with the blue painters tape and I like more the purple tape.....  

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, October 30, 2022 8:25 AM

Kendra Bell

Test

test - no notification on this reply or any others in this thread or other threads

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Sunday, October 30, 2022 10:40 AM

Well whatever you do in the next round with this I'm rooting for success ! Let us know how it goes.

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Sunday, October 30, 2022 7:43 PM

Will do. Tks!  Have been traveling since I posted this - so the primer is probably cement now and the bottom paint is I'm sure cured!  Tempted to tape and do 2 coats of black to cover up the peeled primer or just re-spray primer over the pulled spots then black. Not sure I'm up for tangling with the strip and re-do. 

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Monday, October 31, 2022 6:12 AM

Mrchntmarine

Will do. Tks!  Have been traveling since I posted this - so the primer is probably cement now and the bottom paint is I'm sure cured!  Tempted to tape and do 2 coats of black to cover up the peeled primer or just re-spray primer over the pulled spots then black. Not sure I'm up for tangling with the strip and re-do. 

 

Stynylrez does sand well if you want to try and feather sand the edges of those spots, then spot prime it back in. The question we don't know the answer to yet is is there a better bond now with some curing time ? I mean one has to wonder how good the bond is under that entire paint job. You'll need to tape the red off, is that going to lift is another question ? Course its easy enough to answer, just tape and peel. Remember you need to build on that surface and the kit itself yet.

 

 

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Monday, October 31, 2022 8:06 AM

Mrchntmarine
Not sure I'm up for tangling with the strip and re-do.

I remember the first time I stripped something. It sounds like such a fuss and I kept putting it off, but there is really nothing to it and the whole process is a lot easier than trying to fix the problem and paint over it.

Just my 2 cents in case you ever run into something like this again.

Since I make lots of bonehead mistakes, I strip paint quite a bit. Propeller

-Greg

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Monday, October 31, 2022 8:31 AM

Hi!

 That is a REVELL ship, is it  not? Strip, Sand and start over. I have found thet the styrene used by Revell is semiglossy harder finished plastic!. Scuf completey with 600 grit Wet Sandpaper after stripping. Try not to not miss a spot!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Monday, October 31, 2022 8:12 PM

oldermodelguy

 

 
Mrchntmarine

Will do. Tks!  Have been traveling since I posted this - so the primer is probably cement now and the bottom paint is I'm sure cured!  Tempted to tape and do 2 coats of black to cover up the peeled primer or just re-spray primer over the pulled spots then black. Not sure I'm up for tangling with the strip and re-do. 

 

 

The question we don't know the answer to yet is is there a better bond now with some curing time ? I mean one has to wonder how good the bond is under that entire paint job.  

 

now I'm curious. In general you mean why the bond my not be good ( as in not a good primer? )  ? Or based on how I prepped and applied ?    I've always read that stynylerz can be painted over in short time...

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Monday, October 31, 2022 9:40 PM

Greg, et al.,

So, i was going to do the "tape test" on the bottom.  While handeling and rubbing some of the white spots where the primer pulled off, i caused another 1 or 2 belmishes along the edge of the painted bottom along where the bottom meets the side.  Mind you, 2 tiny specs of red flaked off.  When i applied the detacked purple paint on the bottom and slowly pulled all was good.  When i did the same to one red side - all was not good.  Parts pulled off.

 

So ive now stripped the sides and bottom of primer and bottom paint.  It all came off VERY easily with IPA - even after a week.  I mixed and re-checked my primer and its all mixed mixed well in the bottle.  No clumps or chunks left.

 

So i guess ill scuff and reprime. 

Question:  Ive asked this before - when ive sanded parts and have scuff marks that can been seen, ive asked, "wont they be visible if i prime and paint if i can see them before priming? " and ive always been told, yes.  So, if i scuff the plastic with 600 grit, the marks will be visible after priming and painting??

 

thanks everyone for the help and input!  A work in progress.

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 5:28 AM

Mrchntmarine
Question:  Ive asked this before - when ive sanded parts and have scuff marks that can been seen, ive asked, "wont they be visible if i prime and paint if i can see them before priming? " and ive always been told, yes.  So, if i scuff the plastic with 600 grit, the marks will be visible after priming and painting??

Yes, you'll have visible scuff marks if you use 600 grit sandpaper.  I'm currently building a Revell F-100D, and I'm finding that I'm having no issues with primer and paint sticking to it, even doing test fits of the cockpit into the fuselage using non-detacked Scotch tape.  What I did for surface prep on my F-100 fuselage (since its too big to fit in my "bath" containers) was to use my trusty cheap electric toohbrush and a paste I made with Comet and water.  When you use Comet paste like this, its important to use that same cheap electric toothbrush during the rinsing process, to make sure you scrub all of the Comet residue off.  A regular toothbrush is OK too, but an electric one puts far less mechanical stress on any small details you might otherwise break off with the broad motions of a regular toothbrush...the electric one is fast, but the movements are small and gentle.  Once that completely dries, I use decanted Tamiya Grey Surface Primer which I thin with MEK (MEK mixes extremely well with the primer and serves as a really aggressive plastic etchant, but as long as you're airbrushing it and not laying it on in a thick, wet layer, it won't hurt even the finest details).  I have found that the primer is ready to accept paint after a minimum of 2 hours.  I learned the minimum time and techniques above by LOTS of meticulously structured experimentation on spare F-14 fuselage pieces, and finally settled on what I'm posting here as my go-to technique which hasn't failed me yet, and leaves no visible scuff marks, even under the bright light and magnification I always use when building.  For masking, in case I haven't already mentioned it, I no longer use tape of any kind because it always leaves bands of slightly different sheen paint where it touches (again under bright light and magnification...you don't see it otherwise).  I use Tamiya masking sticker sheets, which require no "de-tacking" and they're so thin and strong that they lay down extremly well, even when going over 90 degree bends.  You have to cut them to the size and shape you want, but its not as hard as it sounds.  Using the above techniques and the Tamiya masking sticker sheets (which are essentially the same material as Tamiya and Eduard canopy masks), I have had no issues at all with lifting, and no slightly different sheen to the paint they were touching.

The sharply-defined scalloping between the upper and lower colors on this F-4B, as well as the fairly-complex shape of the bare metal areas, were masked with Tamiya masking sticker sheet material that was cut to the shape of the scalloping.  Also did the masking for the corrogard areas on the leading edges of the wings with this material.  No bleed-under and absolutely no peeling of any kind when the mask was removed.  Surface prep and priming were all done per the above paragraph.

Also used the above surface prep method on the F-100D fuselage.  Its a work in progress, but you can see toward the front that none of the primer was peeled off the plastic by the Scotch tape I'm using for test fits (I had it wrapped tightly around the area forward of the black cockpit area), and Tamiya primer feathers really nicely as well, so blemishes due to schmutz are easy to fix.

 

 

 

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 8:25 AM

No not the primer but the prep work I believe is your issue unless the primer just wasn't mixed well or got damaged. You want to scuff to where your plastic is dulled out everywhere. 600 should work fine but I prefer 000 steel wool or micro mesh or even a scuff pad. 000 will dull the finish but because of the design of steel wool it doesn't leave directional sand marks, it leaves micro scrapes more than sand marks. And its enough to give paint a grip on shiny plastic. I use 1000 grit micro mesh otherwise or even 1200-1500 ( 1500 is getting kind of fine though). And it seems to me back when I used scuff pads they were the red ones which is a suito 400ish. Now I have not seen scuff marks in Stynylrez primer personally using those methods, I have had them surface if top coating with hot lacquer over stynylrez, so called sand scratch swelling. But a light scuff and reshoot the color and they are gone. But that swelling is why I don't use Stynylrez with lacquers now. I use Mr Primer Surfacer for lacquers. I keep both that in grey and Stynylrez in white and black here. With the Stynylrez I mix my own shades of grey according to my needs when I want grey. I only shoot acrylics and enamels over Styn.

If what you have is 600 it should be fine, I just prefer scuffing with things more pad like than paper. I shot 1/1 for 35 years or more and final scuffing was with red pads supplied by the automotive paint supply stores I used. fwiw. Paper has it's place too just to me not for scuffing prior to paint. But that's me, obviously others are free to not agree.

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 8:59 AM

Hi!

 Technically, if you wet sand using a circular motion that shouldn't be a problem(Scuff Marks) If this worries you, finish with 1200 or even 800 grit, again,Wet! Eaglecash makes a good point. I have used Comet Cleanser on Car and Ship Models with Great results. It acts like a Rubbing Compound. The nice part? you get a nice dull non swirly finish.I have even used Comet to polish hard to work Clear plastic finishing up with McGuires Classic car polish in some situations. You have doubts? Well, the Mcguires comes off with Dawn if there's any residue

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 9:14 AM

Mrchntmarine
So, i was going to do the "tape test" on the bottom. While handeling and rubbing some of the white spots where the primer pulled off, i caused another 1 or 2 belmishes......

I was afraid of that. That can be the problem with re-doing a paint pulled up by mask problem....the bond to plastic is only as good as the original coat (in this case, your Stynylrez)

Also, you mentioned shaking the 'clumps' out of your Stynylrez. This is not a good sign. 2 questions;

1. How old is your Stynylrez?

2. Could it possibly ever have been frozen, including shipping to you?

I've just this summer started tossing my Stynylrez after 2 yrs, and try to buy it only in the summer months to avoid freezing in transit. Not sure what the shelf life is, and I'm just guessing at the two years.

Somebody already gave you the magic bullet advice for Stynylrez above, shake the heck out of it. I broke down and got a mechanical shaker this spring, my Stynylrez sessions have been consistent since.

Good luck with your progress, and sorry about the new paint pull-up. Been there, it's disappointing and frustrating.

-Greg

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 9:53 AM

Like Greg I too order my Stynylrez in warm weather, if it looks low I like to get it in by Oct. In my experience if it came in in good condition it stays that way even if separated down the road but needs power mixing when it does separate. I don't own a mechanical shaker but I use the Badger mixer on my Stynylrez 2-3 times a year on general principals, then it seems not to separate so bad between sessions of use. Just put a mixing stick in there, if there is goo on the bottom or clumps anywhere don't bother mixing with the stick, get out a power something or other. I really believe you'll never put humpty back together again with a stick or hand shaking. But so easy with a power tool.

My secondary primer is Mr Primer Surfacer but it's the real stinky stuff and a topic for another thread. Point being though I always have primer, I guess, well actually I don't know why I brought that up.

  • Member since
    May 2013
  • From: Indiana, USA
Posted by Greg on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 12:22 PM

oldermodelguy
I don't own a mechanical shaker but I use the Badger mixer on my Stynylrez......

I second that. The Badger mixer works great on Stynylrez too. Maybe even better if sludge has settled to the bottom. My lazy-person centrifugal mixer just saves me the step of cleaning the mixing stem on the Badger. Geeked

-Greg

  • Member since
    November 2018
Posted by oldermodelguy on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 1:12 PM

Greg

 

 My lazy-person centrifugal mixer just saves me the step of cleaning the mixing stem on the Badger. Geeked

 

Well there is something to be said for that, Greg ! Which one did you get if you don't mind my asking ? They have the vortex ones at Amazon I noticed, all over the place on price.

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 4:19 PM

Tanker-Builder

Hi!

 That is a REVELL ship, is it  not? Strip, Sand and start over. I have found thet the styrene used by Revell is semiglossy harder finished plastic!. Scuf completey with 600 grit Wet Sandpaper after stripping. Try not to not miss a spot!

 

yep, it is - Revell.  Hawaiian Pilot.  Well, maybe this is my problem - it is a glossy finish plastic.  I never knew that was problematic.  Will now scuff....

 

Keep on building!

  • Member since
    October 2016
  • From: Louisiana Gulf South
Posted by Mrchntmarine on Tuesday, November 1, 2022 4:41 PM

Greg

 Mrchntmarine

So, i was going to do the "tape test" on the bottom. While handeling and rubbing some of the white spots where the primer pulled off, i caused another 1 or 2 belmishes......

 

I was afraid of that. That can be the problem with re-doing a paint pulled up by mask problem....the bond to plastic is only as good as the original coat (in this case, your Stynylrez)

Also, you mentioned shaking the 'clumps' out of your Stynylrez. This is not a good sign. 2 questions;

1. How old is your Stynylrez?

2. Could it possibly ever have been frozen, including shipping to you?

I've just this summer started tossing my Stynylrez after 2 yrs, and try to buy it only in the summer months to avoid freezing in transit. Not sure what the shelf life is, and I'm just guessing at the two years.

Somebody already gave you the magic bullet advice for Stynylrez above, shake the heck out of it. I broke down and got a mechanical shaker this spring, my Stynylrez sessions have been consistent since.

Good luck with your progress, and sorry about the new paint pull-up. Been there, it's disappointing and frustrating.

 

 

Lumps, clumps may have too strong on my part.  The primer is about 2.5 years old.  I have a small bottle and a larger one and both separate over time.  I do shake all my paints and primers from time to time when not in regular use and even then, because i dont use all of them all the time, even when in use.  I checked this primer before spraying - shook multiple times and stirred too over the course of 3 days before use.  I guess what i should have said to be more precise is that day 1 after shake and stir, what lifted from the bottom was a small amount of "congealed primer" the consistency of stiffened yogurt one would find inside the container of a partially consumed, opened for awhile, yogurt quart.  That being said, all gone before final mix and shoot.

 

Im thinking ( question i guess ) the issue may have been in addition to not curing before taping, that the plastic is glossy.  I never knew this could be an issue.  Anyhow, im going to scuff the sides and bottom and because i havent bought any related modelling things lately - look for a paint mixer too.  haha. 

 

Now another quesiton - the deck is shiny plastic too.  How should i go about scuffing that with all the small details and deck additions molded in place?

 

Keep on building!

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