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Gloss Coating Over Metallics

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  • Member since
    August 2017
Gloss Coating Over Metallics
Posted by laskdjn on Sunday, January 1, 2023 9:22 PM

Ladies and gentlement, I request your collective wisdom.

 

I'm in the painting process of a P-51 in NMF.  I used Mission Models Duraluminum(MMM-005) as the metallic.  I then tried to use Alclad Aquagloss as the gloss coat so I can start decaling.  The problem I ran into was that the Aquagloss crazed and cracked.

Looking for a solution, I took a piece of styrene card.  I primed it with my usual Grey Stynylrez then painted it with Mission Models Duraluminum (MMM-005).  I then tried a bunch of different combos of Vallejo Acrylic Gloss Clear, Mission Models Gloss Clear, and Aquagloss.  I tried spraying it light, I tried spraying it heavy, I tried spraying it medium.  Every time, it crazed and cracked.  It's like the gloss coat shrank as it dried, but wasn't actually adhering to the metallic paint underneath.

 

Therefore, the question I pose to everyone.  How in the world am I suppose to clearcoat this?  What is the secret?  I'm clearly missing something.

 

Thank you all in advance.

Jack

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Monday, January 2, 2023 5:11 AM

Don't know if it will work the same with the Mission Models metallic paint, but I have been using Intermediate Gauzy Agent Shine Enhancer by AK Interactive when I want to clearcoat over Alclad lacquers.  I haven't been using it for very long, but so far I haven't had any issues with it.

Here's more info on it:

https://ak-interactive.com/product/intermediate-gauzy-agent-shine-enhancer/

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Monday, January 2, 2023 5:29 AM

That's strange that MM clear would cause a problem with MM paint.When I had a question,they responded pretty fast.Try contacting them tomorrow,maybe they have some thoughts.

https://www.missionmodelsus.com/pages/contact

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Monday, January 2, 2023 7:30 AM

I find decals stick very well to Alclad, so I never overcoat.

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Monday, January 2, 2023 7:36 AM

Tojo72

That's strange that MM clear would cause a problem with MM paint.When I had a question,they responded pretty fast.Try contacting them tomorrow,maybe they have some thoughts.

https://www.missionmodelsus.com/pages/contact

 

 

 

I did last night actually and they responded within 15 minutes.   They gave me some stuff to try.   The two points they mentioned is that I may not have let my paint completely dry and I might have been going down to heavy with the Aquagloss.

 

They thing is I've never had a problem with the way I use Aquagloss on regular color coats.   And the plane I'm working on the metallic had a couple days to dry after I was working on painting the invasion stripes and the OD topside of the craft.   Neither of which showed the crazing.

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Monday, January 2, 2023 7:37 AM

Eaglecash867

Don't know if it will work the same with the Mission Models metallic paint, but I have been using Intermediate Gauzy Agent Shine Enhancer by AK Interactive when I want to clearcoat over Alclad lacquers.  I haven't been using it for very long, but so far I haven't had any issues with it.

Here's more info on it:

https://ak-interactive.com/product/intermediate-gauzy-agent-shine-enhancer/

 

Thanks for this,  I may have to try it.   However,  I'm reticent to try something new if the first 3 products did the same thing.   I feel it's a process or technique issue,  not a product issue. 

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Monday, January 2, 2023 9:14 AM

laskdjn
Thanks for this,  I may have to try it.   However,  I'm reticent to try something new if the first 3 products did the same thing.   I feel it's a process or technique issue,  not a product issue. 

Yup.  I definitely understand your thinking on this.  I just haven't found anything that works well over a metallic coat, and the Gauzy Agent finally did.  It could be cure time like the MM reps told you though.  I'm just going from my experience with Alclad lacquers, and those cure in minutes.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    January 2017
Posted by damouav on Monday, January 2, 2023 5:16 PM

You could try Tamiya X-22 clear thinned with Mr Levelling Thinner, this has worked for me after encountering a similar problem with base coat "bubbling". Give it a try on a test mule, you will be happily supprised.

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  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Tuesday, January 3, 2023 7:54 AM

Hello Jack!

      This is something I have experienced along with a dulling of the metallic. Years ago the only way i could overcoat Testors Chrome Silver was to use Pactra clear in a spritz Perfume Bottle. Remember those little bottles with the little air bag on them? That was then. Now I just go with tried and proven systems Like using say. Rusteoleum colors with Rustoleum clear coat. Tamiya colors with Tamiya Clear. Some of the others I haven't tried and have no desire to do so. Paint already costs too much as it is!

  • Member since
    March 2003
  • From: Western North Carolina
Posted by Tojo72 on Tuesday, January 3, 2023 9:25 AM

He tried Mission Models metal paint with Mission Models clear and it still didn't work,along with some other options !!!

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Tuesday, January 3, 2023 10:18 AM

When we say metallic paints, do we mean a BMF coating or regular paints, like metallic blue.

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Land of Lakes
Posted by cbaltrin on Tuesday, January 3, 2023 11:00 AM

I usually use testors metalizer sealer, but I have never used it over acrylics... I usually do not clear coat metallics though... 

On the Bench: Too Much

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 4:19 AM

missileman2000

When we say metallic paints, do we mean a BMF coating or regular paints, like metallic blue.

 

It was duraluminum. 

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 4:23 AM

I'm starting to think that my bottle of duraluminum had gone bad.   what was happening was when I sprayed it,  I'd lay dish a nice light,  but wet coat,  just as you're supposed to,  but once it'd cure for a couple days,  you could drop regular old water on it and the paint coat would dissolve. 

 

now if I had that problem,  and then I tried to gloss coat, I'd reactivate the paint,  it'd be re-drying with the clear over top of it,  and it'd crack the clear, I'm gonna get a new bottle of duraluminum and see what happens

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 6:29 AM

Since you're at the point of repainting anyway, you might consider trying a different brand of paint.  Alclad makes Duraluminum and so does MRP.  Those both are ready to shoot, straight out of the bottle.  The only thing that made those difficult to clearcoat was that the clearcoats usually had a tendancy to alter the metallic sheen, but never had any of them crack. I was reading the instructions on the Mission Models Duraluminum on their web-site, and all the stuff you have to mix with it is insane.    This isn't the first time I have seen someone talking about Mission Models paint where the possibility of it having gone bad has been mentioned.  I can't wrap my brain around how a model paint goes bad, but it seems to be one of the drawbacks to using water-based acrylics.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 9:33 AM

Hi!

 It's a given. Did you know that even the old Testors Enamels in the square bottles can go bad? Well, that same applies to ANY water or Alcohol based Acrylic. High Temperatures and Severely low ones can destroy the Bond between the Pigment and Carrier. "Pigment-A substance giving a color to a mix of natural or manufactured colorants."

 "Carrier- A manufactured or natural base from which paints are made .It can be any numerous natural or chemical Compounds. Both can be severely affected by environments where stored, Or, other outside influence such as U.V.Light!

       Note: It's been My experience with Metallic coatings to let them Gas out for a full week Before tryng to clearcoat. AND it's always best to use the Mfgrs. recommended Gloss or Semi-Gloss Clear-Coat. The ONLY one I have not run into problems  with here is " Rub-N-Buff" This clearcoats easily after about two weeks of gassing out( If that's the right terminology referring to their product)

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 9:44 AM

Hi Missileman2!

    It's been my experience that even Testors metallics change color slightly or Yellow depending on the clear you use. I once coated a model Car for a club newsletter with Future and it glossed up beautifully. I cleaned it with Ammonia not to long ago and It had turned five or six degrees toward the yellow spectrum, looked like Dull Gold instead of Brushed Silver paint!

     Now! For clear-Coating Bare Metal Foil or other material other than Paint. I find The Gloss Craft Clears, In Hi-Gloss or Semi-Gloss from Craftint Acrylics line works great!

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 11:25 AM

Eaglecash867

Since you're at the point of repainting anyway, you might consider trying a different brand of paint.  Alclad makes Duraluminum and so does MRP.  Those both are ready to shoot, straight out of the bottle.  The only thing that made those difficult to clearcoat was that the clearcoats usually had a tendancy to alter the metallic sheen, but never had any of them crack. I was reading the instructions on the Mission Models Duraluminum on their web-site, and all the stuff you have to mix with it is insane.    This isn't the first time I have seen someone talking about Mission Models paint where the possibility of it having gone bad has been mentioned.  I can't wrap my brain around how a model paint goes bad, but it seems to be one of the drawbacks to using water-based acrylics.

 

 

I was trying to stay with water based acrylics.   On the whole mission models paints have been exceptionally pleasant to shoot.  They go down really easy for me, they resist tip dry,  and they don't spider that badly for me. 

 

Compare that to the Vallejo model air I was using when I first taught myself to airbrush some 5 years ago and it's night and day. 

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 1:21 PM

laskdjn
Compare that to the Vallejo model air I was using when I first taught myself to airbrush some 5 years ago and it's night and day. 

Oh yeah.  I hear ya.  I tried Vallejo Model Air once, and I'll never go back to that.  I thought it was terrible paint.  Hopefully the new bottle of Mission works out for you.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 5:35 PM

Eaglecash867

 

 
laskdjn
Compare that to the Vallejo model air I was using when I first taught myself to airbrush some 5 years ago and it's night and day. 

 

Oh yeah.  I hear ya.  I tried Vallejo Model Air once, and I'll never go back to that.  I thought it was terrible paint.  Hopefully the new bottle of Mission works out for you.

 

I'll definitely report back with my findings. 

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 5:41 PM

Tanker-Builder

Hi!

 It's a given. Did you know that even the old Testors Enamels in the square bottles can go bad? Well, that same applies to ANY water or Alcohol based Acrylic. High Temperatures and Severely low ones can destroy the Bond between the Pigment and Carrier. "Pigment-A substance giving a color to a mix of natural or manufactured colorants."

 "Carrier- A manufactured or natural base from which paints are made .It can be any numerous natural or chemical Compounds. Both can be severely affected by environments where stored, Or, other outside influence such as U.V.Light!

       Note: It's been My experience with Metallic coatings to let them Gas out for a full week Before tryng to clearcoat. AND it's always best to use the Mfgrs. recommended Gloss or Semi-Gloss Clear-Coat. The ONLY one I have not run into problems  with here is " Rub-N-Buff" This clearcoats easily after about two weeks of gassing out( If that's the right terminology referring to their product)

 

 

2 weeks?  Jeebus. I have a test piece that I primed and painted a different shade of metallic that didn't show the fragility that the duraluminum did.   it's been drying for 2 days now and I wanted to run some test clear sprays on it

  • Member since
    May 2004
  • From: Land of Lakes
Posted by cbaltrin on Wednesday, January 4, 2023 7:03 PM

Tanker-Builder
Did you know that even the old Testors Enamels in the square bottles can go bad? Well, that same applies to ANY water or Alcohol based Acrylic

Not true, tamiya acrylics never go bad. I think they last longer than k-rations.. Stick out tongue

On the Bench: Too Much

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Thursday, January 5, 2023 9:19 AM

laskdjn

I'm starting to think that my bottle of duraluminum had gone bad.   what was happening was when I sprayed it,  I'd lay dish a nice light,  but wet coat,  just as you're supposed to,  but once it'd cure for a couple days,  you could drop regular old water on it and the paint coat would dissolve. 

 

I have had Alclad stuff go bad, on colors I do not use frequently.  While the bottles do have a good seal on the cap, that stuff is very thin hot lacquer.  So I guess if I keep opening the bottle I must expect some loss of thinner.  I never thin the stuff- the factory ratio is best.

 

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Thursday, January 5, 2023 6:55 PM

so,  I clear coated with aquagloss my test piece I sprayed with regular mission models aluminum MMM-003..... no cracks, nice sheen,  I think the duraluminum was bad

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Friday, January 6, 2023 8:50 AM

laskdjn

so,  I clear coated with aquagloss my test piece I sprayed with regular mission models aluminum MMM-003..... no cracks, nice sheen,  I think the duraluminum was bad

 

That's a good sign then.  Hopefully the new stuff will behave for you.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Saturday, January 7, 2023 6:18 AM

got a new bottle of duraluminum yesterday..... sprayed down color at lunch,  cleared in the evening,  light wet passes.... no cracks,  I'm convinced my duraluminum was bad

  • Member since
    March 2022
  • From: Twin cities, MN
Posted by missileman2000 on Saturday, January 7, 2023 9:37 AM

Why is it neccessary to gloss coat a NMF finish?

  • Member since
    April 2020
Posted by Eaglecash867 on Saturday, January 7, 2023 10:18 AM

Don't know about anybody else, but I do it to seal in any decals that may have been applied.  Clear-coating also gives some protection to NMF finishes, which tend to be a little more fragile than regular paint.

"You can have my illegal fireworks when you pry them from my cold, dead fingers...which are...over there somewhere."

  • Member since
    August 2017
Posted by laskdjn on Saturday, January 7, 2023 1:09 PM

Eaglecash867

Don't know about anybody else, but I do it to seal in any decals that may have been applied.  Clear-coating also gives some protection to NMF finishes, which tend to be a little more fragile than regular paint.

 

 

 

This.  Specifically,  because I use water based acrylics,  gloss coating prevents decal setting solution from destroying my paint

  • Member since
    October 2019
  • From: New Braunfels, Texas
Posted by Tanker-Builder on Sunday, January 8, 2023 7:25 AM

Oho, Cbaltrin;

     You may be onto something there! I found a bottle of Tamiya I bought back in 2010. Surprise, Surprise, The stuff was still useable. Now, If only they had a nice box I could put ALL my Model Master in that let them fit right, to see how many bottles of it I actually have. I seem to have a lot of Gunmetal, Anthracite and Flat Sea Blue. I wish I knew why. Now Most of that is about seven or eight years old, Never opened!

     I also have twelve bottles of MM. clear Gloss and the same amout of, Wait for it! Pactra! Clear gloss and at least six bottles of semi-Gloss clear,(MM) and another dozen bottles of Clear flat by Craftint(That's acrylic!) This is only part of the boxes of stuff I am going through since I closed my regular workshop. Gees, you should see the tools too. Any body know what an extended handle Ear Polypus is? I got two of those. Oh! and at least Four more boxes of paint I have to go through. I know some is Tamiya I bought in 2000. Wonder what Kinda shape it's in?

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