Unusual Vietnam Hueys

Personal pride?  When did this become your project?

That is 554 probably in the first week of May 72.   After comparing numerous photos, we know that they had a standardized kill marking pattern.  Tanks up top, trucks below on the left, artillery pieces on the right.  Through the discussion here, I've been able to do some research and develop my historical knowledge of the teams.  

While I appreciate the historical debate here, I think I'm going to have to stop.  Too much of this information is getting out there and I'd like to have something to write about along with the interviews I am conducting.  Would you publish your findings on a new Apatasaurus knee discovery before you'd gotten it published?  We can talk circles around when certain antennas were removed from a particular aircraft until the cows come home.  Fact is, the bird doesn't have them now and dated photos of it in Vietnam don't have it either.  When they were removed is irrelevant.   

Jon 

Ray, at this point your propensity for documentation of fact is overreaching the neccessity. For some reason the kill markings on both aircraft have a pattern. That is VERY unusual but could be a matter of the commanders' authority. The combinations of parts spelled out show on one airframe but not the other. The pattern of paint show on one airframe, not the other. The conclusions lean one way, not the other. The ability to pinpoint with absolute certainty is yet undiscovered. It may never be discovered concerning that one photo. If it's your personal pride that demands that absolute certainty, you have my regards. If you prove it the way you want, you have satisfied your personal pride. Will you take something from me? I have nothing for you to take. I'm a schmoe who likes helicopters; I don't publish books, I don't work in a museum. I have experience and knowledge that serve me in the needs I have or develop. Personal pride took a ship out of town for me years ago. Respect for the obvious is my main tenet.

Chief Snake 

Jon,

  Sorry man. I didn't mean anything negative.  I just meant personal pride in my ability to conduct research and find info.  It's not MY project.  It's history as I see it and the documents are public and thus belong to us all.  You are one of the nicest guys I have ever met and I definitely don't want to offend you or Chief Snake.  I should have ceased and desisted a while ago, but I'm a little stubborn in that area I guess.  I will post no more on this subject as per your request.  Please accept my most humble apologies.  I should rememebr, Pride goes before a fall!

   Ray 

PS: For what it's worth, I have given my complete measurements of 700 specimens to at least half a dozen people and have yet to publish the data myself.  Kinda stupid, huh? 

Don't know if that's stupid but if you know it has merit and it was something you could take credit for, why didn't you do it?

Chief Snake 

Chief,

  I am a scientist for SCIENCE not for me. I enjoy sharing data and discoveries with my collegues and I could really care less whether the general public thinks I'm the one who made the discoveries or not.  Those few of us who study dinosaurs for a living know what's what and their respect is all that's really important to me.  A hundred years from now no one will care that I figured out sauropod limb bones grow isometrically.  However, if that data helps a new scientist make his or her mark and allows them to be a success then I am more than happy for them to use my work.  Besides, all the good guys give credit to me in their acknowlegements if I had anything to do with their results.  I'm a teacher by trade and sharing data is my goal in that capacity.  I guess it's just part of who I am.  No worries though, I'm officially off the XM-26 research band wagon pending publication of Jon's book (which I am sure will be most excellent).

   Ray
 

Time for a change of direction here on the Unusual Huey thread.  How about a photo of the incredibly rare M5 cleaning system!

   Ray
 

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Ok, I know I'm cheating a little here since this is definitely NOT a Vietnam era Huey, but has anyone else ever seen a UH-1 with a AN/ALQ-144 IR jammer before?  I would be really interested to hear from you if you have.  Perhaps this isn't as unusual as it seems.

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Here's the acompanying text:

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I don't know what to make of all the marks through the text.  Maybe this wasn't taken in '78, but it does seem to have been taken at Ft. Drum, NY.

   Ray
 

Hey Ray,

Since you didn't specify "Model" and you "temporarily departed VN"......here is a Huey with the 144 kit.  I flew with the kit since the late 70s.

Regards
Steve

Steve,

  Nice shot!  Have you ever seen any H models with the 144 kit?

         Ray
 

Ray,

I definitely think that's an odd shot.  Looking at the markings on it, I'd say it was probably a test bird of some type.  The 144 installation is very odd, and I think that it was probably not adopted.  If you look at its proximity to the upturned exhaust, I'd think that it probably didn't work too well in that position.  Can't really go into much detail on it, but that's my thought.

Jon

Jon,

  Thanks, I figured it wasn't a very workable setup, but the photo proves they tried it at least once.  But then again, the Army stuck just about every helo mod it could think of on a Huey at some point! 

    Ray
 

Yep! 

He's actually installing it there too, which is intriguing in its own right.  It is amazing how much crap the Huey has actually carried throughout its career.  I agree with you about the twin 30mm pods though.  That is just too cool!

Jon

Cobrahistorian wrote:

Ray, I definitely think that's an odd shot.  Looking at the markings on it, I'd say it was probably a test bird of some type.  The 144 installation is very odd, and I think that it was probably not adopted.  If you look at its proximity to the upturned exhaust, I'd think that it probably didn't work too well in that position.  Can't really go into much detail on it, but that's my thought. Jon

If the exhaust was an issue they could have went with the later AH-1F - S style.  The ALQ looks like the same config and location as that and it worked well enough to implement on the AH.

Randy,

Sure, I'd have thought that they'd have gone with the F-style suppressor too if they were going to use it on the H model Huey.  Thing is, that's the only shot I've ever seen of an H with a disco ball.  Could it be that the F suppressor upset the CG too much to install so they scrubbed it altogether?  Either that, or by the time the 144 was coming in service, the Blackhawk was already the primary utility helicopter and it was determined that the Huey didn't need it.

Jon

Melgyver wrote:

Yes, it has M-60 door guns mounted!  Probably a 101st bird, I heard they armed theirs because of so much "fire" they would take up in the "north" country.  Only bad thing about doing a "hoist" mission is no crew member to man the "60".  The pilot could control the hoist but it would have been tough for him not being able to see what was going on below him.

Up north you often had to fly thru valleys, and found yourself constantly look up over your shoulders as well as what's beside you. The NVA loved to place four or five 51's or 50's on each side of the valley, and one in front of you. It was sorta like running the gauntlet. They'd wait for you to skim over the top of a hill, and as you came over they'd shoot the bird up from underneath. Then with your attention looking down fire would come from the sides. Thus the development of a second gunship running about thirty seconds behind the first one. I always seemed to find myself in the first bird. If you happened to be lucky enough to get to be part of an insertion on the Lao border you also got to know 37mm AA, and once in a great while a 57mm. If the coptor was carrying an external load it was considered prime meat, and they always had a couple fast movers on standby. Had to be tough or just plain nuts to fly one of those things. Might also add that it wasn't exactly a picnic shooting out the sides of one. If you think the guy's burning the NVA up, your kidding yourself. Rarely does he actually see them right off, and when he does they're shooting from three or four different places at him. Life expentancey for a door gunner was not a good thing.

gary

Hey all,

Well, I've gone and done it.  I've got a little more spare time here in AZ than I originally thought, so I went and bought another Huey Hog kit.  Of course, I couldn't just build it straight out of the box... so I'm doing an NUH-1B.  I've got the TOW turret, ADF antenna, and engine armor panels installed now.  The rotor head is half built.  The TOW pods are coming along slowly, but I'm hoping to have em done by the time I leave Arizona.  Enjoy!

Jon,

  Man, I'm jealous!  I've barely got time to look at my stash every now and then right now!  Looking good so far.  Did you scratch build the sighting turret?  Dare I ask which ship your modeling?  Thanks for sharing.

      Ray

Ray,

Yep, the sighting system is scratchbuilt using my favorite technique: Lots of sheet styrene laminated and sanded to shape.  Not sure what paint scheme I'm gonna do yet.  I did cut the FM antennas off, but that doesn't preclude me putting better ones back on.  I'm probably going to do no FMs, Whispering Death on the nose and fine camo. I've got a nice shot of that bird. 

Jon

Well it's time to revive this thread I think. i found this in a book I purchased recently:

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The upper photo was posted by Jon (Cobrahistorian) a while back.  The lower pic is new.  Both pics are of the same aircraft.  Can anyone tell us what is UNIQUE about this bird?  We already know about the extra wide tail, so I'm looking for something else.  good luck!  if no one answers, i'll post the answer later this week.

    Ray
 

Marko,

  Glad to see you are still around!  Yep, a 540 rotor on a YUH-1D is definitely unusual.   You picked up on the other mods as well. Also, notice that there are no pedals on the copilot side.  The reason that this YUH-1D was capable of using the 540 rotorhead was that the tailboom was shorter than the production UH-1D's.  The first YUH-1D's used the 204 rotorhead with the blade counterweights just like the UH-1B and a 44ft. rotor. Later each was retrofitted with the new 205 head  which incorporated the TT (tension/Torsion) straps into the blade grips thus doing away with the blade counterweights and the blade length wa sincreased to 48ft.. The tailbooms were also extended to accomodate the longer rotor blades.  Anyway, since the 540 blades were 6 inches wider (27 vs. 21 inches),I guess we know how they broke so many records with the YUH-1D now!  The book is Modern Combat Aircraft 19 UH-1Iraquois/AH-1 Hueycobra by Jerry Scutts (ISBN 0-7110-1416-7).  What I wanted to do next was for the person who answers the question to put up one of their own.  Ideally these would be visual since i think pictures are more interesting than verbal trivia. i suspect you won't have a problem with that after seeing some of your posts!  So you got anything for us?

   Ray
 

I think I'm going to try my hand at building that bird.  Since I robbed the D model main rotor for the TOW Huey, I think I'm going to use the 540 rotor from the Monogram kit on one of my D models. 

Do we have any idea if that vertical fin is straight or cambered?

Jon

Jon,

  i'm going to say the tail was straight and here's why.  The original YUH-1D used the tailboom from the UH-1B as well as it's rotor.  my guess is the extra chord was added to the existing B model tailfin which is not cambered.  Let's put it this way, if you build it uncambered, no one will fight you over it, I think!

     Ray

My contrib, UH-1E TAT-101. Shades of the B-17G here.

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M-61 20mm system and Mark 12. This was from a successful eval in 1964. Note the roof mounted feed chutes.

Great photos!  I'm a little confused about the designation of the single barreled 20mm as the Mark 12 Mod 3.  As far as I knew that was the XM31 system which consisted of a M24A1 20mm cannon mounted on a UH-1B.   Are these photos from your personal collection?

Here's some pics from teh Army Aviation Museum of the M24A1:

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Also, never seen the XM61 three barreled 20mm cannon mounted fixed like that.  I have seen it mounted in the door though:

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Also, here's the abbreviated  XM-61  system mounted in the door of a  UH-1B:

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Really cool stuff you got there.  Keep em coming!

    Ray